Where do you draw the line on civilian ownership of weapons?

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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Some people are scared that "the civilians can outgun the police". . . . .honestly I'm more scared that the police can outgun the civilians

You are flirting with anarchism there. Here's the problem. If the police, the government, are made weak, it creates a vacuum that will be filled by, for example, criminals, gangs.

Look at countries where criminal elements dominate - sometimes the police just don't help people against powerful criminals, sometimes they actually work for the criminals.

Your concern is why we're supposed to be 'vigilant' about protecting democracy, so that the forces we entrust serve the public interest; that's why it's such a problem when the idea of democratic government, our leaders, our military, our police, can get 'corrupted' from serving the public interest - why there is such an opposition to things like a radical court doctrine becoming our law giving the constitutional rights for citizens to the most powerful corporations and wealthy class to buy our government.

And that's not going terribly well now in areas such as our leaders' oversight of the finance industry - though police in the US are generally pretty good, corruption is more of an exception - even if there have been pockets where hundreds of officers have been found to be acting wrongly, it's still rare.

Take a look at mafia dominance in our country in the 1950's, take a look at the power of some gangs in the country today - that's what happens if you just give up on having a good democracy with the force to defeat public enemies. Just giving in to paranoia isn't a good solution. Though blind support for corrupt government power isn't, either.

A basic difference between liberals and conservatives largely seems to be, though, that liberals understand that democracy is the citizens' shield against too much power among a few wealthy and powerful people and interests causing tyranny, while the 'conservative' often has no concern about 'private tyranny' and cares only about the government as a 'threat'.

Ironically, that's what leads to alliances between government and those powerful interests against the public, whether it takes the form of fascism or plutocracy - where the purpose of government is to protect the wealthy interests and keep the people serving them, with the use of force, often torture and murder against citizens trying to fight for more justice, rather than being a democracy to serve the public interest. 'Government' is a bad word in those cases, as we've seen in dictatorships.

It was also the case when colonization was common, but that's mostly gone now.

Anyway, what we need is not to weaken government too much, but to protect democracy so that it serves citizens.

And that means citizens need to do things like not support demagogues who promise them benefits by exploiting others. That's a reason 'universal equality of rights' is important.

You often find tyrants' rise to power came by supporting one group exploiting another. Remember Hitler's promises of benefits over groups such as gays and Jews and the handicapped and leftists, and other nations - even as he was secretly contemtuous of nearly all Germans; look at how Saddam gave minority Sunnis large benefits over majority Shia; look at how in pre-Chavez Venezuela and other countries minority groups - often light-skinned - exploited majorities, often dark-skinned, and many other cases.

Even in our own past, some political leaders have based their campaigns on promises to whites to continue discrimination against blacks, sometimes getting them elected, though they haven't been able to be tyrants; but note that some of our most pro-corporate politicians have gotten the edge to win elections in our recent past by using promises to continue denying equality to gays to get votes. Then they appoint judgets, and now we have the law saying the people have less and less power over corporations.

Don't just 'oppose power for the police', but don't let them get corrupted.
 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,423
2,610
136
I would like to see some stats on LE shooting and LE killings, total and per capita, over the last 30 years. I am certain it's gone up quite a bit. I know in AZ it seems like a LE kills someone about once a week... probably not, but seems that way.

There are also a lot of SWAT style operations that border on the ridiculous. One example was something like 50 officers showing up at a dude's house because he we suspected of drug smuggling. Dude woke up confused because of some flash/bang or gas, grabbed his gun and LE lit up the house with 200+ rounds and shot the guy like 12 times. Sure they guy was probably a scumbag, but really?

What I find disturbing is the amount that SWAT teams are called out know to sometimes server simple search or arrest warrants. Also the use of no-knock warrants have gone up. Also does the number of SWAT teams now across the nation. It seems like almost every department no matter how small will have a SWAT team. They are needed in the big cities etc. However in the smaller departments the training sometimes is not all that good for these officers and sometimes they are packing some serious firepower. Their was a picture floating around on the Internet a couple of weeks ago of a SWAT officer who showed up with the scope on his military rifle on backwards. Basically a lot of these SWAT officers just don't have the training to go around playing SF Commando.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,586
986
126
Personally, I don't care if they ban these so-called "assault rifles." I own one and I don't care if they ban them. I almost never shoot the damned thing anyway and really have no compelling reason to even own it.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
4,346
26
81
Personally, I don't care if they ban these so-called "assault rifles." I own one and I don't care if they ban them. I almost never shoot the damned thing anyway and really have no compelling reason to even own it.

We really should be able to move beyond the me me me attitude. I don't do a lot of things but still recognize to protect the rights of those that do. Right is right, regardless of my own preferences. YOU hardly ever shoot yours and YOU really have no compelling reason to own one... but YOU are not everybody. A law is general, and does affect everyone.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
5,449
0
0
You do know that people everywhere concealed carry, right? You just dont notice it. Being prepared does NOT mean being afraid. Fwiw, I dont carry, but I wouldnt mind carrying occasionally if/when I get my license and a carry gun.

I don't live in the USA anymore. Here you need to pass a test to get a gun license and have to be in a gun club for a year or so. They don't limit the types of guns you can own so you could buy a machine gun (nobody does) but they limit the number of guns you can own to like 12. What is drastically different here though is that you are not allowed to just carry a gun for no reason. You can transport a gun to a firing range or to go hunting but you can't just run around with it. Crime is very low and people aren't afraid like they were back home. There's something in our American culture that makes us afraid of everything. This isn't true in other cultures that I've lived in. You can say you're being prepared all you want but I will disagree with you. They're afraid.

Watch your facebook feed. I imagine we all have 2nd amendment posters and gun enthusiasts as friends. They all do the typical NRA posting but my friends also occasionally post something like "I'm sure glad I had my gun with me in that bad neighborhood tonight" or "I'm sure glad I have my gun with me since my SO is out of town". You call that being prepared. I call that being scared.
 

Abraxas

Golden Member
Oct 26, 2004
1,056
0
0
I don't see any issues with Tear Gas launchers and incendiary flash grenades. If they are truly weapons of war then they don't belong on the street by either LE or civilians alike.

See, to me that is a different standard. Tear gas launchers are a weapon of crowd control, flash grenades a weapon to attack fortified positions which may include uses in war but also could be necessary for going after a well defended gang operation or a hostage situation. Police clearly have a necessity for both functions in certain situations, can the same be said of civilian operators?
 

Agent11

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
3,535
1
0
It is ridiculous to attribute a blanket motive to everyone who owns a firearm, or anything for that matter.
 

Lithium381

Lifer
May 12, 2001
12,452
2
0
You are flirting with anarchism there. Here's the problem. If the police, the government, are made weak, it creates a vacuum that will be filled by, for example, criminals, gangs.

Look at countries where criminal elements dominate - sometimes the police just don't help people against powerful criminals, sometimes they actually work for the criminals.

Your concern is why we're supposed to be 'vigilant' about protecting democracy, so that the forces we entrust serve the public interest; that's why it's such a problem when the idea of democratic government, our leaders, our military, our police, can get 'corrupted' from serving the public interest - why there is such an opposition to things like a radical court doctrine becoming our law giving the constitutional rights for citizens to the most powerful corporations and wealthy class to buy our government.

And that's not going terribly well now in areas such as our leaders' oversight of the finance industry - though police in the US are generally pretty good, corruption is more of an exception - even if there have been pockets where hundreds of officers have been found to be acting wrongly, it's still rare.

Take a look at mafia dominance in our country in the 1950's, take a look at the power of some gangs in the country today - that's what happens if you just give up on having a good democracy with the force to defeat public enemies. Just giving in to paranoia isn't a good solution. Though blind support for corrupt government power isn't, either.

A basic difference between liberals and conservatives largely seems to be, though, that liberals understand that democracy is the citizens' shield against too much power among a few wealthy and powerful people and interests causing tyranny, while the 'conservative' often has no concern about 'private tyranny' and cares only about the government as a 'threat'.

Ironically, that's what leads to alliances between government and those powerful interests against the public, whether it takes the form of fascism or plutocracy - where the purpose of government is to protect the wealthy interests and keep the people serving them, with the use of force, often torture and murder against citizens trying to fight for more justice, rather than being a democracy to serve the public interest. 'Government' is a bad word in those cases, as we've seen in dictatorships.

It was also the case when colonization was common, but that's mostly gone now.

Anyway, what we need is not to weaken government too much, but to protect democracy so that it serves citizens.

And that means citizens need to do things like not support demagogues who promise them benefits by exploiting others. That's a reason 'universal equality of rights' is important.

You often find tyrants' rise to power came by supporting one group exploiting another. Remember Hitler's promises of benefits over groups such as gays and Jews and the handicapped and leftists, and other nations - even as he was secretly contemtuous of nearly all Germans; look at how Saddam gave minority Sunnis large benefits over majority Shia; look at how in pre-Chavez Venezuela and other countries minority groups - often light-skinned - exploited majorities, often dark-skinned, and many other cases.

Even in our own past, some political leaders have based their campaigns on promises to whites to continue discrimination against blacks, sometimes getting them elected, though they haven't been able to be tyrants; but note that some of our most pro-corporate politicians have gotten the edge to win elections in our recent past by using promises to continue denying equality to gays to get votes. Then they appoint judgets, and now we have the law saying the people have less and less power over corporations.

Don't just 'oppose power for the police', but don't let them get corrupted.

Craig, I'd like to respond in more depth, I've been busy at work so I'll have to come back later and fill this in..

I'll respond to this piece in particular:
A basic difference between liberals and conservatives largely seems to be, though, that liberals understand that democracy is the citizens' shield against too much power among a few wealthy and powerful people and interests causing tyranny, while the 'conservative' often has no concern about 'private tyranny' and cares only about the government as a 'threat'.

Doesn't it make sense then that EVERY citizen have power that a firearm affords them. If we were to allow the police to substantially overpower us then we would be falling into what you describe above: a concentration of power. As it stands now if we continue to ban weapons, the poor among us will be the least likely to be able to get one. They will be the most vunerble to this. I ask you: Do I have a right to self defense? (You'll answer yes, because you're logical). What is the most effective means of self defense available to the individual? Typically it's a firearm. It's what evens the odds between a woman and the three men breaking into her house.
Final question: Do the police have a duty to protect me?
I already know the answer and I know you do, too.

Then, in that situation, I'm being told that NO, you may not protect yourself, and NO, we will not protect you. That seems contrary to my right to self defense. . .
 

Lithium381

Lifer
May 12, 2001
12,452
2
0
It is ridiculous to attribute a blanket motive to everyone who owns a firearm, or anything for that matter.

This, this and more this.

I've owned guns for YEARS and there has been a gun in my house since i was 2. For whatever reason, I mean maybe i'm the single person in the country who HASN'T killed someone. . . but it's just not on my list of things to do today.