One per computer? Gimmie some of whatever you're smoking.
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Where did the idea that people shouldn't pay for software come from?
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I don't understand what you're getting at. I don't understand the parallel you are trying to draw between software and pc components.
You can swap pc components around all you want. There are computers that allow 2 users to use the same hardware at the same time. Dual video cards for dual monitors. Multiple NICs.
Ever hear of dual/multi booting too?
You're right you don't understand. Or at least you pretend not to for the sake of your non-argument.
For software you have a license that you agree to before you install it (you know that thing you never read?) The license usually says something along the lines of "this software is provided for use on one computer". When you break that license by installing it on 2 computers you own, you have broken the agreement and you are a theif.
You have paid for 2 video cards and 2 moniters. If you have "Multiple NICs" you have paid for multiple NICs. If you want multiple OSes, you have to pay for multiple OSes. Get it?
You can swap OSs all you want too. But as per the agreement, can only be used on one system at a time.
Ya... so?
Yes, I have heard of it.
Really the heart of the issue is that software is a non-physical product that is treated as if it were. The cost of a software is the value of the time spent creating it. What is the value of Windows in this regard?? Probably billions.
I'm not trying to support piracy, but with the creation of these new machines that allow multiple users to work on one component it is no longer "one component for one pc".
Another example is KVM switches. As menial as that may be.
The value of someones time is subjective. I was into development at one time, and I have moved on to something new. I never cried a river
In this new career I have to put in many many hours to complete a job whos info can be used by nearly anybody.
3chordcharlie has brought up many good points about the marketing of software that many are seemingly ignoring.
Another example is KVM switches. As menial as that may be.
The value of someones time is subjective. I was into development at one time, and I have moved on to something new. I never cried a river
In this new career I have to put in many many hours to complete a job whos info can be used by nearly anybody.
3chordcharlie has brought up many good points about the marketing of software that many are seemingly ignoring.
C'DaleRider
Guest
So, honestly, what does speeding in a car have anything to do with whether software piracy is/isn't illegal?
If one speeds in a vehicle, one accepts the fact that getting caught usually has a fine attached to being caught, along with points added to one's license. It's tragic, I know, but it's a law many, many choose to fracture and do so knowing the penalties associated with doing so.
Software piracy is just that. The "Oh, it costs too much." argument is just stupid. If you cannot afford something, I suppose it's just alright ot take it then, correct? That include your car? I do like it....don't want to pay for it, so I'll just pop over and "borrow" it for a while.
In the case of these components, are they designed for the purpose of being used by more than one user?
Anyways, listen. The point is that software piracy is stealing, and stealing is wrong. That's all there is to it. You can try and convince yourself otherwise to justify it or save your conscience or whatever. It's been said time and time again but I'll say it one more time... The only reason people pirate software is because they know they'll never get caught and have to answer for their actions. End of story.
Didn't I say I don't support piracy? I've been a developer, I've had my code ripped. I don't go parading around saying, "piracy is right and just!". Though on the other hand, I will say that is it NOT a black and white issue at this point.
If you want to bring it to a moral level, then I will say morality is not absolute. Morality is relative.
But thanks for the condescending little lecture based on complete assumptions.
It's always been on a moral level!!! It's a crime for which there are no repercussions!!!
Where's does the grey area lie?? Is it stealing cheap software?? Expensive software?? From big companies, or small companies?? Is it based on need??
If I need photoshop to do graphic design work to make money and buy bread to feed my starving children, is that ok??
I don't know all the answers, I think it's wrong. Most of the BS arguments people have for why it's ok only reinforce that.
No repercussions? I'm fairly sure piracy is covered in the law books. Has been for sometime.
There are many grey areas. Some of which are covered in this thread. Many of them are more geared towards media like music.
Your line about photoshop is a CLASSIC relative morality statement.
You know that no one gets busted, so don't give me that.
It seems this debate is playing itself out. So I'll just say that we probably agree a whole lot more than it seems, I argue the hard line stance because I think someone has to. I belive in fair use and all that jazz (i.e. giving your bud a copy of a game to to check it out ain't so bad). But a line has to be drawn somewhere.
Eventually the distribution of software is going to change, and the whole argument will be moot. ASPs are growing, online activation, server validated CD-keys, Steam etc.
One of the big issues that I think something could be done about is along the lines of "oh.. I only need to burn one VCD, I don't want to pay $100 for nero to use it once". People scream about renting software, but I think it's got a lot of potential for situations like this.
Anways, peace man. I have to get back to developing a really chite piece of software that costs 5 grand 😉
3chordcharlie
Diamond Member
That's an over-simplification of what I'm saying, but for the sake of illustration it's good enough.
Think of a market without IP controls. MS sells Office for $700. Now, there's no law against you selling Office, so what do you do? You make copies and undercut MS; so now you sell it for $600.
But if anyone can do it, then people keep undercutting each other until the price reaches an equilibrium.
The trouble comes when the marginal cost of another unit is very low compared to the fixed costs faced by a firm. So if you have the choice of selling one more unit of Office, for $5, or not doing so, you sell the unit because you're better off than if you don't sell it. The CD costs a few pennies, and the actual labour involved in creating and packaging a single CD is very small. Think about the difference in cost between 1st class and bargain airline tickets; even on a transcontinental flight, the airline is better off selling thelast few seats for $100 than leaving them empty, but they couldn't fly the plane on the money brought it if everyone paid only $100 for their seat. Software is similar; without some method of protecting high prices for at least some customers, competitive forces will make the business lose money at the equilibrium price.
In a competitive market, the price falls until the marginal cost of another unit = the price it is sold at. In industries like software, airlines, music, etc, the marginal cost is very low, despite the massive investment required to create the original product; thus IP or some similar system is needed to protect the companies who invest in creating software, airlines, and music, or the market will fall apart through competition.
Of course this is all envelope-economics; in the real world there is no such thing as perfect competition, and the results are not necessarily as severe as what I'm describing. However, the need for protection in particularly vulnerable industries is still very real.
As far as piracy goes, monopoly pricing has more to do with it than the above; though as I said, you can buy office for personal use for not all that much money. Piracy is wrong, but industry claims of lost billions of dolalrs are complete bunk; if piracy were impossible, most people still would not buy office (i.e. at full price); it is simply priced to high to be worth the cost for them, so they would find a cheaper alternative, or do without.
newParadigm
Diamond Member
Orig. posted by Tiwsta
The ease of pirating software (Above example, and p2p networks, i use ed2k myself, and outrageous costs,) all contribute.
And i know you can buy cut down versions of software(MS OFfice Student ed.), w/o comiting Copyright Infringment, but who wants to pay for some cut down version when they can get the $700 one for free.
It's the reason why i have a 40gb iPod and nota 20gb, why I have a OC'd athlon XP2500m and not a normal 3200+, and why i have a 9800se unlocked to XT speeds (almost) 🙂.
People want the best of the best, and if they can get it for free, while the non=-best version costs money, of course they will, and as someone said (i would quote it but im in ahurry), people don't really consider Priacy as a 'SIN'.
That were i will leave it by till 2morow.
The ease of pirating software (Above example, and p2p networks, i use ed2k myself, and outrageous costs,) all contribute.
And i know you can buy cut down versions of software(MS OFfice Student ed.), w/o comiting Copyright Infringment, but who wants to pay for some cut down version when they can get the $700 one for free.
It's the reason why i have a 40gb iPod and nota 20gb, why I have a OC'd athlon XP2500m and not a normal 3200+, and why i have a 9800se unlocked to XT speeds (almost) 🙂.
People want the best of the best, and if they can get it for free, while the non=-best version costs money, of course they will, and as someone said (i would quote it but im in ahurry), people don't really consider Priacy as a 'SIN'.
That were i will leave it by till 2morow.
By copying software, you're technically not costing the company anything. The only profits lost are attributed to "assumed" purchases. Unless you can prove without a doubt that the person who received the unapproved copy of the software was without a doubt going to buy it, but chose not to since they got a free copy, you can't say for sure that it cost the company anything.
And like someone else earlier said that it's easily duplicatable..... essentially you could duplicate it infinite #'s of times without spending a dime. It's sorta like sharing a crazy dream, or idea in a way..... you can easily tell a person about your dream, or idea, and they can share it with 10 people, and then each of them to 10 more people and so on, but the initial creator is completely unattached to the duplication process or any efforts required to do so. And the no tangible thing, I'm guessing that's why "stealing" it brings less guilty feelings.
And like someone else earlier said that it's easily duplicatable..... essentially you could duplicate it infinite #'s of times without spending a dime. It's sorta like sharing a crazy dream, or idea in a way..... you can easily tell a person about your dream, or idea, and they can share it with 10 people, and then each of them to 10 more people and so on, but the initial creator is completely unattached to the duplication process or any efforts required to do so. And the no tangible thing, I'm guessing that's why "stealing" it brings less guilty feelings.
Cerb
Elite Member
That problem still exists, and I'd bet piracy is down far more because people GETTING SUED than iTunes. If there are only 2 good songs, why would you even think about getting the CD? And anyway, with Britney Spears and the two media-whoring Simpsons having record contracts, I doubt it will stop soon. But I don't care about that stuff, and last I searched, much of what I wanted (that I knew I wanted, mind you) was not on iTunes, anyway.
So, that's 99c per song. Let's look at my last three CDs:
artist - album - (tracks) price/99c per track price
Jethro Tull - Stand Up (10) $8/$9.90
Jethro Tull - Benefit remaster (14) $12.99/$13.86
Ozzy Osbourne - Ozzmosis remaster (12) $13.99/$11.88
total actual cost: $34.98
projected 99c/track price: $35.64
What does this say to me? iTunes is horribly overpriced.
You get a lossy compressed file with DRM. I get a 44.1kHz/16-bit uncompressed compact disc, with the CD-DA logo displayed on all three of them, cases and leaflets for approximately the same price as if I were to 'buy' something of the quality of my MP3s, if that. I can do whatever I please with the CDs, too. Kinda nice.
Note: sales tax is not included. I could have gotten those CDs $3 cheaper overall from Amazon, which would exempt sales tax, but I like browsing.
Too bad it doesn't work that way for decent CDs.
I'm finding that more and more true. After a bit of getting used to, I'm liking OpenOffice more tha MS's for all but spreadsheets, which I rarely use anyway.
But almost everyone thinks $300 is worth it... 🙂
I'm using Windows 2000, and if SP2 pans out with half the success MS says, I might be tempted to actually buy it (newegg academic pricing being worst case). I have to have windows, being a gamer, and unlike a lot of folks, do not think it is crap. They need to revitalize the desktop design (look at current KDE, Gnome and OS X), but other than that, it is pretty good.
Re: Microsoft selling X for $Y.
I work for a little software company that has a less than impressive product. And we sell it for a lot of money. We could sell it for $20 or something and get many more customers. But guess what we don't make many more money. After some price testing we found the point where we make the most money with the fewest number of customers. This saves us in other areas (support, service, processing fess, etc). Suffice to say Microsoft has probably found the sweet spots for their prices.
Re: Programmers being out of a job if software becomes free.
Not necessarily true. Even if the product is free, somebody still needs to make it, use it, fix it, maintain it. Linux is free, and people are definitely making a living off of it. Just like musicians and artists, they can make money off the product they produce AND they can make money by performing. Will the money be as good? Will there be as many jobs? I dunno, but I'm sure programmers will still be needed.
Re: crazy open source people.
You have problems with other people giving away their products for free? Consider their preaching to be part of the cost of using their software 😉 And not all preach, and not all that preach are GPL zealots.
Re: piracy
It's easy, there's a low chance of being caught, and everybody else is doing it. Allows one to claim he's "sticking it to the man" and fighting the big bad corporations.
I work for a little software company that has a less than impressive product. And we sell it for a lot of money. We could sell it for $20 or something and get many more customers. But guess what we don't make many more money. After some price testing we found the point where we make the most money with the fewest number of customers. This saves us in other areas (support, service, processing fess, etc). Suffice to say Microsoft has probably found the sweet spots for their prices.
Re: Programmers being out of a job if software becomes free.
Not necessarily true. Even if the product is free, somebody still needs to make it, use it, fix it, maintain it. Linux is free, and people are definitely making a living off of it. Just like musicians and artists, they can make money off the product they produce AND they can make money by performing. Will the money be as good? Will there be as many jobs? I dunno, but I'm sure programmers will still be needed.
Re: crazy open source people.
You have problems with other people giving away their products for free? Consider their preaching to be part of the cost of using their software 😉 And not all preach, and not all that preach are GPL zealots.
Re: piracy
It's easy, there's a low chance of being caught, and everybody else is doing it. Allows one to claim he's "sticking it to the man" and fighting the big bad corporations.
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