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where are you moving when the US goes to pot?

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where are you going when america goes under?

  • staying where i am!

  • moving somewhere else in the US

  • canada

  • england

  • australia

  • latin american country

  • other european country

  • asian country

  • african country

  • one of the poles (comedy option)


Results are only viewable after voting.

nextJin

Golden Member
Apr 16, 2009
1,848
0
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For the past decade I have been saying that once I retire from the military I would move to Australia and just live the life of pot smoking with koalas and being in the outback.

If the US collapsed under the weight of liberal welfare systems yet there were still a means to travel to Australia I'd go in a heartbeat.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,880
4,212
126
No link, of course. Your last sentence is perhaps some of the most exquisite doublespeak ever uttered, btw. In our modern world, freedom w/o democracy is possible only in the minds of fools. The frontier closed over 100 years ago, in case you hadn't noticed.
Link

Note it is personal and economic freedom. Seriously though, doublespeak? You would do Orwell proud. We can talk generally about the link between democracy and freedom, but they aren't the same.

Since I provided what you asked for let's see how you spin this.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,755
13,874
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Link

Note it is personal and economic freedom. Seriously though, doublespeak? You would do Orwell proud. We can talk generally about the link between democracy and freedom, but they aren't the same.

Since I provided what you asked for let's see how you spin this.
The Fraser Institute? One of the Koch Bros projects?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraser_Institute

And, of course, nobody wants to talk about how nations having higher "economic freedom" suffered more in the collapse of the economic freedom of the Bush era, with the Ownership Society chief among them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World

It's very much the same thing that happened in 1929, 1873 & other famous economic faceplants.

The financial elite didn't really suffer, though, just the little people. Boom/bust cycles are great for the rich, not so much for everybody else, and that's what "economic freedom" delivers.

Doublespeak? obviously. One can't possibly be said to be free unless they're free to vote & to participate in governmental decision making. There is no such thing as benevolent dictatorship.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,880
4,212
126
The Fraser Institute? One of the Koch Bros projects?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraser_Institute

And, of course, nobody wants to talk about how nations having higher "economic freedom" suffered more in the collapse of the economic freedom of the Bush era, with the Ownership Society chief among them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Freedom_of_the_World

It's very much the same thing that happened in 1929, 1873 & other famous economic faceplants.

The financial elite didn't really suffer, though, just the little people. Boom/bust cycles are great for the rich, not so much for everybody else, and that's what "economic freedom" delivers.

Doublespeak? obviously. One can't possibly be said to be free unless they're free to vote & to participate in governmental decision making. There is no such thing as benevolent dictatorship.

Let's see...
Feel the need to duh-vert & deny?
I mean 1873 means the government should control your money, because as you imply freedom is slavery. You also purposefully ignore personal freedoms. Well, I guess we better not discuss that. Ignorance is strength. Then democracies are more peaceful than HK (Iraq War) and believe in the rights of citizens and nations (Project Ajax). Yeah that Iraq War. That was definitely HKs fault. Well war is peace.

Here's a different link.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/01/08/beijing-controlled-hong-kong-topped-canada-in-a-human-freedom-ranking-how-is-that-possible/

From that article
Q: Does democracy matter?
A: The type of government was not included as a category in the Fraser Institute’s Index of Human Freedom. “We’re measuring freedom, not democracy,” Mr. McMahon said, adding that democracy should not be confused with freedom. He said that even though democracies may be better able to support stable freedom over the long term, it does not equal freedom. Democracy is a power relationship while freedom means lack of constraints, Mr. Mahon said. “Iran in many ways has a democracy, but it would be silly to say that people in Iran, because they can vote are freer than people in Hong Kong,” he said.“This is not to say that democracy is not a good thing … that is certainly a good thing, but democracy on its own is not freedom.”
Now tell us that as an individual you are better off in Iran than HK? Good luck with that.

Note the last bolded sentence. Democracy is desirable but on it's own not freedom. Shall I post the definitions of both words and you can argue with Merriam Webster or the OED?

Yeah, since the transfer of HK to China the press has been censoring itself since there is a fear of Big Brother coming down on them and that's a real concern. That would never happen here where lets say a reporter broke a story and the government went after them. Oh wait- it did. No, that's impossible! Democracies are freedom and that means that the story must be bogus. Newthink.

Obviously democracy is the preferable form of government, but that's not what was being addressed. It's the overall freedoms the people of each nation enjoy.

Note that Canada finished ahead of us in this study. The Canada who has a better regulatory system (not more, but better) with banking? The same Canada who didn't suffer from like we did from the finance scandal? Yeah, the Koch brothers sure pulled the wool over our eyes! They must have got things right just to confuse you. But you complain about economic freedom being a bad thing, and with Koch behind the wheel Canada should have come out worse. Well that's your doublethink.

HK came out ahead of the US based on a higher economic freedom. Personal freedoms are ranked lower. Aha! You got me. Clearly money is more important than liberty. Now you can be all smug. Oh, the Netherlands is higher than HK. Yeah that run away Rightist nation, all money and social chaos. Pull the other one. It ranks lower on the economic score than us, but the personal liberty stuff just got in the way. And of course they must be using anti gay criteria for freedom of religon because thats what the Koch brothers would do. Oh, no it's the opposite. They take freedom of religion, sexual orientation, freedom of speech, of the press and more into consideration. Yep, the freedom of homosexuals to be free from harassment and enjoy civil liberties are considered a positive factor. Clearly a right leaning sentiment.

Clearly this is dripping with sarcasm, but you didn't even bother to see what the criteria for this was before you replied. You went back to 1873 to convince us that having control over our money instead of the government is a bad thing, then cited Koch, which clearly has a business interest as an implied poison pill who if they were controlling this Canada wouldn't have come out better and the Netherlands? Yeah.

You haven't addressed the points, you went on to peripheral tangents to discredit what you didn't bother to understand.

Now go and look at the study, find a couple things you don't like and say "Aha!" and ignore the bulk of the criteria in order to continue.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,755
13,874
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This is the statement I found objectionable.

I'd argue that if democracy takes away liberty then we'd be better off without it.
Democracy always limits liberty to some degree or another, as does any form of government. Like it or not, democracy, particularly within a constitutional framework, provides the greatest degree of personal liberty. It does that, in part, by limiting the liberty of the strongest, the greediest, the most callous and the most psychopathic among us. Other forms of govt inevitably advance them to the top.

Your most recent reply is a example of desperate denial, btw. The limited choices presented to voters in the Theocratic State of Iran are not democracy, at all, but rather lipstick on a pig. The economic choices presented to the average citizen in an economic oligarchy aren't freedom, either, certainly not in a system of interdependent specialization such as our own.
 

Sheep221

Golden Member
Oct 28, 2012
1,844
26
81
There has been recent increase in anti-american threads.
Have any of you ever thought before blaming the government or the state, that your lives suck because of you in the first place?
 
Apr 27, 2012
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There has been recent increase in anti-american threads.
Have any of you ever thought before blaming the government or the state, that your lives suck because of you in the first place?
No thanks to morons like jhhnn and his ilk who hate freedom and America. To them it's always never their own fault and these scumbags blame others.
 

irishScott

Lifer
Oct 10, 2006
21,570
2
0
Meh, by that point we'll have full-on gun confiscation, so I guess I'll have to go out back and look for those guns I lost in that boating accident a few years prior. :whiste:
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,321
2
0
There has been recent increase in anti-american threads.
Have any of you ever thought before blaming the government or the state, that your lives suck because of you in the first place?
But it's more fun to drop out of high school and blame the rich for their lack of any marketable skill beyond punching buttons at the cash register.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,585
145
106
If I leave the US, it will be to go to a carribean or pacific tropical island.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,880
4,212
126
This is the statement I found objectionable.



Democracy always limits liberty to some degree or another, as does any form of government. Like it or not, democracy, particularly within a constitutional framework, provides the greatest degree of personal liberty. It does that, in part, by limiting the liberty of the strongest, the greediest, the most callous and the most psychopathic among us. Other forms of govt inevitably advance them to the top.

Your most recent reply is a example of desperate denial, btw. The limited choices presented to voters in the Theocratic State of Iran are not democracy, at all, but rather lipstick on a pig. The economic choices presented to the average citizen in an economic oligarchy aren't freedom, either, certainly not in a system of interdependent specialization such as our own.
Well the Egyptians might argue that democracy can let you down. I'll edit out my last remark as irrelevant and note that you haven't responded to my points.

Regarding democracy my statement stands. I know of no competent adult that doesn't understand that liberties are always limited. A reasonably intelligent person can look up words and would learn that freedom is not democracy. I've already provided a context and explanation. Post a dictionary definition of equivalence if you like. Also your statement begs the question. The freest societies are democracies does not mean that ALL democracies MUST have more freedom than any alternative. If you want to say that no country has had it worse than HK because they arent a democracy then please do and discredit the criteria.

You claim that Iran isn't a democracy. Well they have parties and candidates and vote for different people. You might be tempted to say we enjoy unfettered choice whereas Iran does not. That argument has problems if you try it. Frankly I dislike authoritharians if they hide behind elections or not. If you don't like the ratings that's fine but the points I raise about ideological bias left or right doesn't fit the results. The Netherlands being a Koch shill? Try to sell that.

If you want to say who is a democracy and who is not fine. That's not what was being measured.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,880
4,212
126
Australia or NZ; possible in another 2 years.
NZ is appealing but the wife would have to give up visiting family and that's not happening. There's a lot of appeal to relocating to the southern island. Good climate and more elbow room. Out of curiosity I checked the immigration requirements of several countries a few years back and we'd have no problem getting in but family ties matter.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
16,164
3,791
136
How's NZ's gun laws, I know some of you on the right wouldn't like Australia's gun laws at all. IIRC, you must also have secured/gained employment in Australia BEFORE you can immigrate there.
 

Sheep221

Golden Member
Oct 28, 2012
1,844
26
81
How's NZ's gun laws, I know some of you on the right wouldn't like Australia's gun laws at all. IIRC, you must also have secured/gained employment in Australia BEFORE you can immigrate there.
That's speciality of america, the rest of the world is happy without having armory in the backyard, if you want to be somewhere else you either customize to local laws and traditions and way of living, or you don't travel, simple.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,755
13,874
136
How's NZ's gun laws, I know some of you on the right wouldn't like Australia's gun laws at all. IIRC, you must also have secured/gained employment in Australia BEFORE you can immigrate there.
They're not gonna like it in Australia, New Zealand or Hong Kong, that's for sure-

http://www.gunpolicy.org/

Or most countries, for that matter.
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,755
13,874
136
You claim that Iran isn't a democracy. Well they have parties and candidates and vote for different people. You might be tempted to say we enjoy unfettered choice whereas Iran does not. That argument has problems if you try it. Frankly I dislike authoritharians if they hide behind elections or not. If you don't like the ratings that's fine but the points I raise about ideological bias left or right doesn't fit the results. The Netherlands being a Koch shill? Try to sell that.
Oh please. Political candidates in Iran must pass muster with the religious Guardian Council, Voters have the same kind of choices as in the Republican Presidential Primary- Right, Far Right, & Fringewhack.

The Netherlands isn't a Constitutional Monarchy, a Democracy, much like the UK? Funny that-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_the_Netherlands
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
NZ is appealing but the wife would have to give up visiting family and that's not happening. There's a lot of appeal to relocating to the southern island. Good climate and more elbow room. Out of curiosity I checked the immigration requirements of several countries a few years back and we'd have no problem getting in but family ties matter.
Well, if the US goes to pot it may be time to move the family.

guns in NZ:

The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in New Zealand is 925,0001 to 1,200,0002. In the absence of registration for most firearms, only an approximation is possible

In New Zealand, private possession of fully automatic weapons is restricted to police-approved licensed gun owners with a ‘collector' licence endorsement.53 55 56 Each automatic or restricted weapon must be registered to its owner, and disabled when not in use.

NZ guns are legal and 11 people were murdered out of 4million

I think this is proof that guns don't kill people: poor people with guns kill people.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,880
4,212
126
Oh please. Political candidates in Iran must pass muster with the religious Guardian Council, Voters have the same kind of choices as in the Republican Presidential Primary- Right, Far Right, & Fringewhack.

The Netherlands isn't a Constitutional Monarchy, a Democracy, much like the UK? Funny that-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_the_Netherlands
I gave you the context regarding the Netherlands and you ignored it. You really lost the argument as evidenced by your need to respond by changing my statements into what you wanted me to say.

We have Guardian Councils too. They are the RNC and DNC and no one has a chance unless they pass muster. You love that. No chance for people to have real choice and you'd not have it any other way. I think you'd fit in comfortability with Guardian Councils

Why do you bother arguing if you can't even address the issue?
 

Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,755
13,874
136
I gave you the context regarding the Netherlands and you ignored it. You really lost the argument as evidenced by your need to respond by changing my statements into what you wanted me to say.

We have Guardian Councils too. They are the RNC and DNC and no one has a chance unless they pass muster. You love that. No chance for people to have real choice and you'd not have it any other way. I think you'd fit in comfortability with Guardian Councils

Why do you bother arguing if you can't even address the issue?
So, uhh, the RNC & the DNC are the same as the Guardian Council? Really? That it takes their approval to get your name on the ballot?

Funny that- I recall having a lot more choices than that. Maybe I was hallucinating, or maybe you're reaching very, very far to make some sort of point that avoids your anti-democracy statements.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,880
4,212
126
So, uhh, the RNC & the DNC are the same as the Guardian Council? Really? That it takes their approval to get your name on the ballot?

Funny that- I recall having a lot more choices than that. Maybe I was hallucinating, or maybe you're reaching very, very far to make some sort of point that avoids your anti-democracy statements.
Yes you are drugs.

You can't win without the blessing of the DNC or RNC.

For the rest we're having a good laugh. I think your support of sex with preeteens is disgusting though.
 
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