Where are they going with the war???

[JinLien]

Raid on Baghdad torture dungeon

More at stake than regime change

There are claims that they found 175 people with the US help when they were looking for a 15 year old boy in and unofficial prison in the ministry dungeon and this is just the tip of the iceberg.

American official calling the current situation is becoming Mogadishu. The US arms and trains many factions, including the Iraqi government, former Saddam regime, Generals, senior intelligence people that similar to the CIA's Phoenix program of the Vietnam War era where they target & assassinated Viet Cong suspects and sympathizers.

To make matter worst the US Rangers & Delta Force has been crossing the border into Syria looking for terrorists coming into Iraq, and in turn they have killed several Syrian soldiers.

Sound like a civil war is coming on the way if it is not already is ++ Vietnam all in one spot.

 

[Lemon law]

My two cents is-----------

I never supported this Iraq war----but now we broke it and must try to fix it. This is not some Vietnam like country where we can just say Yipee we won and sail on home. Iraq is right in the middle of a politically volatile region and us leaving now would destabalize that entire region.-and oh ya, its the place where much of the increasingly scare oil is.

So we stay and hope against hope we can put lipstick on a pig. Might work and we might get a stable Iraqie government. Might not work and the entire country may go into a civil war that spills over many borders. Right now the latter is a high probability and if it happens it will happen with Shah of Iran speed. One day we will think we are in some sort of control and within a week or so that US position may be totally untenable is a realistic future prospect I hope won't happen.

But with the George W. Bush white house the lesson is clear-----fools rush in where angels fear to tread.
and being the little boy who cried wolf, Bush is unlikely to get much international support after his its my way or the highway past behavoir. Others world leaders will be so busy watching and cheering while Bush get his cumuppance that they will fail to notice the crisis bites them too.

 

[ntdz]

Please stop comparing Iraq to Vietnam. We aren't fighting an army, we are fighitng terrorists. We have lost a little over 2,000 troops in Iraq compared to 30,000+ in Vietnam.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: ntdz
Please stop comparing Iraq to Vietnam. We aren't fighting an army, we are fighitng terrorists. We have lost a little over 2,000 troops in Iraq compared to 30,000+ in Vietnam.

We're fighting an army of terrorists...

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: ntdz
Please stop comparing Iraq to Vietnam. We aren't fighting an army, we are fighitng terrorists. We have lost a little over 2,000 troops in Iraq compared to 30,000+ in Vietnam.

Thank you. Of course this has other implications beyond comparisons to Vietnam, as Bruce Willis said in The Siege, the army is not a big green police machine, perhaps fighting terrorists requries slightly different tools to be successful.

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: ntdz
Please stop comparing Iraq to Vietnam. We aren't fighting an army, we are fighitng terrorists. We have lost a little over 2,000 troops in Iraq compared to 30,000+ in Vietnam.

so far.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: judasmachine

Originally posted by: ntdz
Please stop comparing Iraq to Vietnam. We aren't fighting an army, we are fighitng terrorists. We have lost a little over 2,000 troops in Iraq compared to 30,000+ in Vietnam.

so far.

FIFTEEN THOUSAND WOUNDED ... 80% of them would have died in Vietnam compared with todays technology... :brokenheart:

 

[Agnostos Insania]

Originally posted by: ntdz
Please stop comparing Iraq to Vietnam. We aren't fighting an army, we are fighitng terrorists.

Isn't it sort of both? I mean, we went in fighting Saddam's army, and now we're fighting sort of a Middle-Eastern version of guerrilla warfare. This is excluding the retarded suicide bombers that blow up their own people, of course.

 

[Lemon law]

As I remember it, we lost something like 58,000 in Vietnam.

Last time I checked we lost 6 more today in Iraq.

Lets see---6 times 365 is 2190.

I support our troops--its the commander and theif that I doubt.

and remember one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
As I remember it, we lost something like 58,000 in Vietnam.

Last time I checked we lost 6 more today in Iraq.

Lets see---6 times 365 is 2190.

I support our troops--its the commander and theif that I doubt.

and remember one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

So the terrorists in Iraq are really fighting for freedom from democracy? If that's the case then what exactly are they trying to accomplish by blowing up their own countrymen?

 

[tommywishbone]

Whoever we're fighting, an army, terrorist, freedom fighters, whatever.... I hope they stay over there because they are infinitely tougher than we are. We drop fire & 2000 lbs bombs on them every single day and their fury still grows. In the US, if someone phones in a bomb treat, everybody runs for their life. JFC, we're scared to death of the bird flu.

Whoever they are, whatever they are... we can not beat them.

 

[TGS]

Stolen from Dictionary.com:

freedom fighter
n.
One engaged in armed rebellion or resistance against an oppressive government.

Same source:

insurgent
adj.
Rising in revolt against established authority, especially a government.
Rebelling against the leadership of a political party.

Same deal:

terrorist

adj : characteristic of someone who employs terrorism (especially as a political weapon); "terrorist activity"; "terrorist state" n : a radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities

I don't really hear Rumfeld saying we are fighting anything but an insurgency. These people are clearly organized. The only difference is they wear no uniform, so they have the advantage of coming out of a crowd and firing off an RPG and walking back into a crowd.

IE.

Main Entry: guerilla warfare
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: sudden unexpected attacks carried out by an unofficial military group or groups that are trying to change the government by assaults on the armed forces

 

[Uhtrinity]

I keep hearing the 'we broke it, we must fix it' argument, which I will admit was mine also (only after we invaded). But I have serious doubts that it can be fixed now. People argued that we would have a civil war if we did pull out early, but there are many signs of a civil war already. The differsnt factions are fighting amongst themselves in an attempt to grab power, we have multiple groups fighting us, some imported and some home grown, and it only seems to be getting worse. This is worse than vietnam ever was. There are so many factions it is impossible to know who the enemy is.

I have a friend who is just rotating stateside after being stationed outside of Bagdad for the last year and in his opinion Iraq is a lost cause. He stated "We failed to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi's and we should just leave it and call it good." Keep in mind he is far from being a Liberal, Voted Repub his whole life, and has been in the Army for about 15 years now.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: judasmachine

Originally posted by: ntdz
Please stop comparing Iraq to Vietnam. We aren't fighting an army, we are fighitng terrorists. We have lost a little over 2,000 troops in Iraq compared to 30,000+ in Vietnam.

so far.

FIFTEEN THOUSAND WOUNDED ... 80% of them would have died in Vietnam compared with todays technology... :brokenheart:

Then HOORAY for today's technology

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
As I remember it, we lost something like 58,000 in Vietnam.

Last time I checked we lost 6 more today in Iraq.

Lets see---6 times 365 is 2190.

I support our troops--its the commander and theif that I doubt.

and remember one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

That's right, and the Freedom to oppress men, abuse women and indoctrinate children into hatred and violence is fundamental to every Muslim (male, anyway)!

Calling yourself a "freedom fighter" doesn't make you one.

Jason

 

[Lemon law]

I somewhat submit that Uhtrinity has somewhat answered Whoozeyerdaddy, but both make valid points. Thre is certainly a terrorist camp in Iraq with its axe to grind but is not the only faction or action occuring. We have to remember that Iraq was put together after WW1 by some Europeans without even bothering to ask the natives. To avoid alienating neighboring countries that were majority Sunni Arabs, the minority in Iraq Sunni's were installed as figureheads leaders. What followed was a twenty some years rebellion against British rule by the natives of Iraq.

Now the Sunni's are on the outs, the Shites want to finially gain control, and the Kurds want either autonomy or independence. And Turkey with a large Kurdish oppressed minority is also peeing their pants about Iraqie Kurds energizing their Kurds into rebellion. So while we are all watching the terrorist who make most of the loud noises, the real show is the interplay of the three main groups
as they push their mutually exclusive goals

Our historical terrorist or insergent, George Washington, had things far easier because there was not as much political differences in the native populations as in Iraq. But we too came to civil war over an agrainian vs. industrial split but our constitution only postponed that slavery issue that always had been simmering.

And along comes the W. Bush team of ideologs who seemed to think that Iraq was going to be their personal Mr. Potato head. Just get rid of Saddam---insert a new head friendly to the US and the job is done. Nothing need be done about the middle and lower parts of the Iraq body politic, just change heads and leave the rest of the old governmnet in tact.-- get rid of the Bathist too but all that takes is changing department heads.

Well folks, we all see the Mr. Patato head strategy did not work and now we have a real mess. But cheer up------the thing that is uniting Iraqies now is mutual hatred of the US. -----and don't forget
the other 1.4 billion moslems now offended by the torture policies by Bush.

As for the average Iraqie, they worry about getting food water, and electricity with conditions now far worse than under Saddam. And also worry about being blown away at some US checkpoint by mistake or by terrorist. They used to call that Russian Roullete, now its just everyday reality in Iraq.

But Bush has brought them the blesssings of freedom. And killed a pile of innocent Iraqies in the process.

 

[Starbuck1975]

I don't really hear Rumfeld saying we are fighting anything but an insurgency. These people are clearly organized. The only difference is they wear no uniform, so they have the advantage of coming out of a crowd and firing off an RPG and walking back into a crowd.

Which is in violation of the Geneva Convention and international law...acceptable for one side to do what it likes, while expecting America to abide by some arcane concept of Just War???

 

[CaptnKirk]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

I don't really hear Rumfeld saying we are fighting anything but an insurgency. These people are clearly organized. The only difference is they wear no uniform, so they have the advantage of coming out of a crowd and firing off an RPG and walking back into a crowd.

Which is in violation of the Geneva Convention and international law...acceptable for one side to do what it likes, while expecting America to abide by some arcane concept of Just War???

Oh - just like all insurgent armies throughout history got together and made a 'Uniform' as their first priority -
French Underground ?
America Minutemen ?
Myan Serfs ?
Libertarian Voters ?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

I don't really hear Rumfeld saying we are fighting anything but an insurgency. These people are clearly organized. The only difference is they wear no uniform, so they have the advantage of coming out of a crowd and firing off an RPG and walking back into a crowd.

Which is in violation of the Geneva Convention and international law...acceptable for one side to do what it likes, while expecting America to abide by some arcane concept of Just War???

Oh - just like all insurgent armies throughout history got together and made a uniform as Their first article -
French Underground ?
America Minutemen ?
Myan Serfs ?
Libertarian Voters ?

Nice excuse and apology.

 

[Todd33]

Originally posted by: ntdz
Please stop comparing Iraq to Vietnam. We aren't fighting an army, we are fighitng terrorists. We have lost a little over 2,000 troops in Iraq compared to 30,000+ in Vietnam.

Of course they don't compare directly, but you mislead. Vietnam lasted what 10 years? Ira is on year 3.

http://www.lies.com/wp/2003/10/20/us-deaths-in-vietnam-and-iraq-by-month/

So far we are losing troops faster than Vietnam. I don't expect Iraq to be as big a debacle, but it is one none the less.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Oh - just continue to ignore the facts.

Obviously to everyone (except you and your narrowminded partisans) the Iraqi Army is disolved. They went underground.
Now everyone we engage in combat with is part of the Iraqi Resistance - no matter what label you want to put on them,
Insurgent, Terrorist, Teenaged Spaceman, or Wollie Wombat - they're fighting back against US because we are their common enemy.
Why are they hitting and killing 'Innocent Civilians' ? Innocent by who's standards ? Our standars from 6,000 miles away,
or their standards - from over 2,000 years of cultural wars in the region since the dawn of history.
They have made it a point to punish collaborators, and all who are present at places that those targets group.
Is that anymore 'Right' than our military actions against 'Suspected Insurgent Targets' who turn out to be wedding parties, or family gatherings.

The Iraq Civil War has started - we just happen to have excellent seats to watch it from inside the arena.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

I don't really hear Rumfeld saying we are fighting anything but an insurgency. These people are clearly organized. The only difference is they wear no uniform, so they have the advantage of coming out of a crowd and firing off an RPG and walking back into a crowd.

Which is in violation of the Geneva Convention and international law...acceptable for one side to do what it likes, while expecting America to abide by some arcane concept of Just War???

Oh - just like all insurgent armies throughout history got together and made a uniform as Their first article -
French Underground ?
America Minutemen ?
Myan Serfs ?
Libertarian Voters ?

Nice excuse and apology.

Exceptionally so to an imbecile who calls Just War an arcane concept. What starbuck meant to say was that without any moral foundation he was having trouble understanding morality. Well I guess so.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Oh - just like all insurgent armies throughout history got together and made a 'Uniform' as their first priority -

No, but the nature of warfare was different such that combatants were fairly easy to identify, and closing with the enemy on the field of battle was considered honorable.

French Underground ?

A small thorn in the side of the Nazi war machine...also under international law, the Germans were perfectly justified to shoot on site any French Resistance members captured while conducting combat operations in civilian garb.

America Minutemen ?

American Minutemen did not win the Revolution by hiding in swamps, and conducting hit and run covert operations, dressed like Robin Hood and his Merry Men...the Minutemen did not win a decisive battle against the British until they donned the uniform of a professional army, and faced the British on the field of battle...but given the nature of warfare in those days, it was fairly easy to identify combatants even if they didnt have matching uniforms.

Myan Serfs ?

Not familiar with the Myan Serfs...indie rock band???

Libertarian Voters ?

They don't wear uniforms, but instead utilize cloaking devices that make them invisible to the American political schema.

Exceptionally so to an imbecile who calls Just War an arcane concept. What starbuck meant to say was that without any moral foundation he was having trouble understanding morality. Well I guess so.

The concept of Just War is nothing more then a notion if there is no means to enforce its mandates...the concept of Just War seems absurd as there is no "nice" way to kill someone...spend a few months forward deployed, and then come back and tell me about moral foundation...it is not a question of morality, but reality.

Similarly, if your enemy chooses not to respect the tenets of Just War, it seems ridiculous that you should constrain your military, when doing so constrains their combat effectiveness all in the name of giving the PR battle a higher priority.

Fairly abstract to discuss morality when the nature and goal of war is to kill people, which is a fairly immoral act.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Point in case - Vietnam.

The enemy there rarely wore a uniform, unless you consider the traditional Black Pajamas and Conical Straw Hat to be a Uniform of Issue
It was the way the pesants dressed throughout the country, except those in the higher classes of people - in the cities.

Rarely did you ever encounter the NVA unless it was by accidental intrusion into one of their hidden encampments.

Friends by day, Enemies in the night.

Attitude Adjustment of the American People is coming in Iraq faster than it did in 'Nam


Side to Starbuck: Myan Serfs Those who rose to destroy their rulers (?).

 

[Todd33]

Iraq has no jungles, it's clearly 100% different!