I was just wondering why there isn't a rechargeable Lithium Ion, AA battery when there's the non-rechargeable already available? It can't be the form-factor; so what is it?
Where are the Lithium Ion batteries?
- Thread starter watdahel
- Start date
Anubis
No Lifer
There are not non-rechargable lithium ion batteries available in AA form factor. What you are referring to are probably Lithium Iron Disulphide(LiFeS2) batteries which produce 1.5V such as Energizer's 'e2'. Lithium Ion(Li+) produces 3.6V.
You can also get Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMh) batteries if you look around a bit. They're almost as good as alkalines in terms of power storage, but are rechargable -- and don't suck nearly as much as Nicads.
Conspiracy theories are not always the answer. In this case, the answer is what Klah said. Li-ion's produce an output voltage of 3.2-3.6V. In addition, Li-ions are prone to exploding/combustion if shorted or accidently overcharged, and they can lose significant amounts of capacity if they are completely drained. The circuitry internal to laptop batteries can utilize the higher voltage and can prevent the two other problems. Still, occassionally you still hear of the li-ion batteries in cell phones catching on fire.
I think it's unlikely that they will make it into consumer products as a stand-alone battery any time soon. More and more consumer products are integrating them as an internal battery though (many digital cameras, the Apple iPod, etc.).
The newer formulation lithium polymer batteries (li-poly) have marginally higher capacities than li-ions, have an output voltage of ~3.6V, can catch on fire (but not explode) if shorted or overcharged, and essentially die forever if you completely drain them. These don't seem like suitable replacements for alkalines either.
Research is moving forward on fuel cells and lithium sulfur (liS) batteries but these are not ready for prime-time yet.
Early NiCd batteries suffered from the "memory effect" and lower power density compared to alkaline, they contained heavy elements that pose environmental concerns and they self-discharged at a high rate (if you charged them and left them standing, they would gradually lose power at a much higher rate than alkalines). The newer NiCd batteries do not suffer from the "memory effect", and have power capacities comparable to alkaline. They still pose environmental concerns and they self-charge faster than alkalines.
Newer formulation NiMH batteries have approximately 300% higher capacity than alkalines when used in high discharge applications. (edit: bold-case editted out because I was incorrect on this and statement editted to be correct to avoid misleading people. Thanks for the correction, FishtankX )So they hold the same amount of power as 3 alkaline batteries. See this link to Ravovac's NiMH page. The do not suffer from the "memory effect" and can be charged thousands of times. Lacking cadmium, they are safe for the environment and can be disposed of. They self-discharge faster than NiCd's and faster than alkalines and thus are not good choices as batteries in things like smoke detectors and emergency flashlights.
All of the battery types still have their place.
NiCd's forte is high discharge rates. Compared to other battery types, only lead-acid batteries are better at providing high current. So NiCd's continue to be used heavily in cordless power tool applications and they are unlikely to be replaced by NiMH any time soon. They also work better than NiMH and Li-ion at cold temperatures.
NiMH's forte is safety, form-factor and environmental. They are safe to use, fit well with consumer products and are environmentally safe. They are also cheap compared to li-ion and lipoly batteries.
And li-ion and li-poly have high capacity per volume and even better capacity per weight compared to other battery types. Li-ions really have no advantage over li-poly and are likely to be phased out over time as the newer li-poly cells enter the market.
I never knew all this time that I spent doing R/C electric model airplanes would result in some useful knowledge.
I think it's unlikely that they will make it into consumer products as a stand-alone battery any time soon. More and more consumer products are integrating them as an internal battery though (many digital cameras, the Apple iPod, etc.).
The newer formulation lithium polymer batteries (li-poly) have marginally higher capacities than li-ions, have an output voltage of ~3.6V, can catch on fire (but not explode) if shorted or overcharged, and essentially die forever if you completely drain them. These don't seem like suitable replacements for alkalines either.
Research is moving forward on fuel cells and lithium sulfur (liS) batteries but these are not ready for prime-time yet.
I disagree with both of those statements. They are substantially better than alkalines in terms of power storage and NiCd's don't suck.
Early NiCd batteries suffered from the "memory effect" and lower power density compared to alkaline, they contained heavy elements that pose environmental concerns and they self-discharged at a high rate (if you charged them and left them standing, they would gradually lose power at a much higher rate than alkalines). The newer NiCd batteries do not suffer from the "memory effect", and have power capacities comparable to alkaline. They still pose environmental concerns and they self-charge faster than alkalines.
Newer formulation NiMH batteries have approximately 300% higher capacity than alkalines when used in high discharge applications. (edit: bold-case editted out because I was incorrect on this and statement editted to be correct to avoid misleading people. Thanks for the correction, FishtankX )So they hold the same amount of power as 3 alkaline batteries. See this link to Ravovac's NiMH page. The do not suffer from the "memory effect" and can be charged thousands of times. Lacking cadmium, they are safe for the environment and can be disposed of. They self-discharge faster than NiCd's and faster than alkalines and thus are not good choices as batteries in things like smoke detectors and emergency flashlights.
All of the battery types still have their place.
NiCd's forte is high discharge rates. Compared to other battery types, only lead-acid batteries are better at providing high current. So NiCd's continue to be used heavily in cordless power tool applications and they are unlikely to be replaced by NiMH any time soon. They also work better than NiMH and Li-ion at cold temperatures.
NiMH's forte is safety, form-factor and environmental. They are safe to use, fit well with consumer products and are environmentally safe. They are also cheap compared to li-ion and lipoly batteries.
And li-ion and li-poly have high capacity per volume and even better capacity per weight compared to other battery types. Li-ions really have no advantage over li-poly and are likely to be phased out over time as the newer li-poly cells enter the market.
I never knew all this time that I spent doing R/C electric model airplanes would result in some useful knowledge.
PM: NiMH Cells do *not* have higher capacity than the average alkaline cell. Put both in a clock, let it go for a few years and I guarantee you the average off the shelf NiMH will be dead long before the alkaline gives up.
It's something about the demanding needs of digital cameras, be it higher current or voltage, but Alkalines are unsuitable for digital cameras, and high current draw (all the battery in less than 3-4 hours) in general.
Alkalines provide better capacity than NiMH but falter under high current draw applications.
The average Alkaline cell provides something like 2400-2800 mAH.
Proof?
The Sharp DS-70, a minidisc player, plays almost twice as long on a high capacity Alkaline than it's standard internal NiMH 1400mAH battery.
http://www.minidisc.org/part_Sharp_MD-DS30+DS70.html
If you don't believe me on the specs of the NiMH battery do some research. Almost all Sharp MD players and Sony CD/MD players use prismatic 1400 mAH batteries.
Also, the reason why Li-Ion hasn't made it into the mainstream is it's incompatible voltage. Nearly 2.5X the amount of voltage a NiMH cell puts out.
It's something about the demanding needs of digital cameras, be it higher current or voltage, but Alkalines are unsuitable for digital cameras, and high current draw (all the battery in less than 3-4 hours) in general.
Alkalines provide better capacity than NiMH but falter under high current draw applications.
The average Alkaline cell provides something like 2400-2800 mAH.
Proof?
The Sharp DS-70, a minidisc player, plays almost twice as long on a high capacity Alkaline than it's standard internal NiMH 1400mAH battery.
http://www.minidisc.org/part_Sharp_MD-DS30+DS70.html
If you don't believe me on the specs of the NiMH battery do some research. Almost all Sharp MD players and Sony CD/MD players use prismatic 1400 mAH batteries.
Also, the reason why Li-Ion hasn't made it into the mainstream is it's incompatible voltage. Nearly 2.5X the amount of voltage a NiMH cell puts out.
Just wanted to point out your chemical forumula, but the M does not mean metal, or any element for that matter, and Hydride would be H with a subscript of 4 if i am correct
I did some research and you are correct. I did, however, mention that things that run for a long time on low current are not really suitable for NiMH because of the self-discharge issue though. But even so, apparently alkaline current capacity varies much more than the rechargeable batteries that I'm familiar with, and alkaline capacity is much higher under lower current loading conditions than it is under higher conditions due to the internal chemistry.
I have learned a new thing. Thanks for the correction.
I considering making my own LiIon for a custom laptop mod. And basically pm is right. Also another issue is that LiIons can only be made in a rectangular manner. Of course you could play with varying size LiIon cells to make it fairly round.
Of course you would have to have a special charger to charge them (NiMH charger would likely cause a fire/explosion) and some sort of circuity to kill the LiIon once it is discharged.
It isn't imposible for a AA LiIon but it is difficult and likely quite expenive.
Of course you would have to have a special charger to charge them (NiMH charger would likely cause a fire/explosion) and some sort of circuity to kill the LiIon once it is discharged.
It isn't imposible for a AA LiIon but it is difficult and likely quite expenive.
Li-ion cells are not electrically compatible with conventional batteries (3.6 V each instead of 1.5), and this is why they are not readily available in standard sizes.
However, try as you might to find individual Li ion cells in industrial or prismatic sizes - you won't be able to do so unless you are looking on behalf of an OEM. Li-ion cells are prone to explosion or catching fire if used incorrectly. Selling such potentially dangerous components direct to the public could be awkward. If you are able to get them, then they are available in a wide variety of shapes and sizes - from the small prismatic batteries used in phones, to D size cells for industial equipment to beer-can sized for electric vehicles.
If you were to take apart a Li-ion battery pack from e.g. a mobile phone, you would find enclosed in the package a battery protection circuit consisting of a couple of transistors and a special-purpose control chip. Its aim is to protect the battery from short-circuit, reverse connection, or severe overcharge. It seems to work; thankfully, tales of mobile phones, digicams or laptops exploding or bursting into flames are relatively rare - where they have done so, the cause almost invariably been traced to an inferior battery pack omitting said circuit.
However, try as you might to find individual Li ion cells in industrial or prismatic sizes - you won't be able to do so unless you are looking on behalf of an OEM. Li-ion cells are prone to explosion or catching fire if used incorrectly. Selling such potentially dangerous components direct to the public could be awkward. If you are able to get them, then they are available in a wide variety of shapes and sizes - from the small prismatic batteries used in phones, to D size cells for industial equipment to beer-can sized for electric vehicles.
If you were to take apart a Li-ion battery pack from e.g. a mobile phone, you would find enclosed in the package a battery protection circuit consisting of a couple of transistors and a special-purpose control chip. Its aim is to protect the battery from short-circuit, reverse connection, or severe overcharge. It seems to work; thankfully, tales of mobile phones, digicams or laptops exploding or bursting into flames are relatively rare - where they have done so, the cause almost invariably been traced to an inferior battery pack omitting said circuit.
PM : No problem.
Hey, how many of you all have heard of 'Carbon Zinc' or 'Zinc Chloride' batteries? It seems that these are disposable one use cells with capacity similar to NiCD are cheaper than alkaline per watt hour. Intriguing.
Carbon Zinc
By the way, PM. This graph might be intresting.
On this page
on the same page...
There is a graph that details alkaline discharge versus capacity graph.
As you can see, by the time an alkaline battery hits 300mAH (Which is about 1/4 of what the Canon A60 draws, from memory, but you have 4 batteries so it evens out) you're already at 30% efficency. That's the reason for Alkaline being undeisrable for digital cameras.
(Haha, I didn't even know F, AAAA and N sized batteries existed. )
Hey, how many of you all have heard of 'Carbon Zinc' or 'Zinc Chloride' batteries? It seems that these are disposable one use cells with capacity similar to NiCD are cheaper than alkaline per watt hour. Intriguing.
Carbon Zinc
By the way, PM. This graph might be intresting.
On this page
on the same page...
There is a graph that details alkaline discharge versus capacity graph.
As you can see, by the time an alkaline battery hits 300mAH (Which is about 1/4 of what the Canon A60 draws, from memory, but you have 4 batteries so it evens out) you're already at 30% efficency. That's the reason for Alkaline being undeisrable for digital cameras.
(Haha, I didn't even know F, AAAA and N sized batteries existed. )
Zinc carbon batteries are typical 'budget' batteries - with alkaline batteries being the premium end.
Cheap, cheerful and a short life. They have a few problems though, high internal resistance means they are even less suitable for high-drain devices (e.g. digicams) than alkaline, additionally, the body is made of zinc which acts as an electrode - when the cell is exhausted the zinc is left very thin and fragile as a result these batteries have a tendency to leak.
For items used reasonably frequently, then zinc carbon are fine - but alkaline may be more convenient due to their longer life.
Cheap, cheerful and a short life. They have a few problems though, high internal resistance means they are even less suitable for high-drain devices (e.g. digicams) than alkaline, additionally, the body is made of zinc which acts as an electrode - when the cell is exhausted the zinc is left very thin and fragile as a result these batteries have a tendency to leak.
For items used reasonably frequently, then zinc carbon are fine - but alkaline may be more convenient due to their longer life.
It was my understanding that battery manufacturers simply won't sell Li-ion/poly-li-ion batteries WITHOUT including the circuitry to prevent overcharge/overdischarge. (simply put, there's no good reason they SHOULD sell without it.)
I fly radio controlled electric-powered model airplanes and use lithium polymer batteries in the planes. They come without the circuitry to prevent either overcharge, or overdischarge. I'm not sure why this is the case, but you can see for yourself that this is true by looking here, and I could provide literally dozens more links like this one. This is definitely the bare cell. There's no circuit on there. The cell itself is that silver bag-like thing and there is no circuitry on the terminals or within the cell itself.
For my personal use, I set the plane to automatically shut off below 9.2V to prevent overdischarge For overcharging, the chargers that electric R/C'ers use are more advanced than most laptop battery chargers. I have a thermal probe that I attach to the batteries while charging and I am pretty conservative on the charging rates.... even so, I charge them in a large semi-sealed pyrex container that's in an open area in my garage with the assumption that there's a good chance of a fire. I have about 100 flights on one of my packs and about 45 on the other and I've had no problems so far.
I'm not sure why the protection circuitry is not included on the packs, but I could make a guess that it interferes with the high discharge rates that are used in R/C models. I discharge one of my 10.8V packs at about 18A peak.
Then I guess my understanding was wrong!
I bet the circuitry is missing in this model because space & weight are at a premium.
I bet the circuitry is missing in this model because space & weight are at a premium.
mAH ratings are of virtually no meaning without a "C" rating. Try using W/h instead.
Extremely stable cells like the 123A can have extremely exaggerated mAH ratings at the C/10000 level.
Alkalines fare ok for light loads such as a clock. Lithiums will last for decades in a smoke detector. Stick with NiMH cells in your cameras and other high drain, frequently used devices.
Li Ion tech is available in individual cells with chargers to accomodate them. Pila is one such manufacturer. If your device cannot use terminal voltage of at least 3.5VDC then it needs to adapt. A Li Ion D cell has over 17 Ah capacity! (C/5) Just don't short the terminals.
Cheers!
Extremely stable cells like the 123A can have extremely exaggerated mAH ratings at the C/10000 level.
Alkalines fare ok for light loads such as a clock. Lithiums will last for decades in a smoke detector. Stick with NiMH cells in your cameras and other high drain, frequently used devices.
Li Ion tech is available in individual cells with chargers to accomodate them. Pila is one such manufacturer. If your device cannot use terminal voltage of at least 3.5VDC then it needs to adapt. A Li Ion D cell has over 17 Ah capacity! (C/5) Just don't short the terminals.
Cheers!
Hmm isn't the 15 minute Rayovac rechargable batteries LiOn?! The bastard at Radioshack told me it was!
Yah, those bastard Radioshack employees told me Rayovac chargers only work with Royavac batteries. That's retarded isn't it?
My mistake!
Actually they're 13 Ampere Hours or 13,000 mAH. Pretty impressive. 3.7 volts means just one is needed for a 2D cell flashlight.
Cheers!
Check out the RC community for batteries. One good site is ezonemag Also, Lithium batteries have charging issues. You cnat just put them in series and charge them. One battery will top out while hte others don't. This leads to overheating and explosions. All of hte charges for lithiums are very expensive and most only charge up to 3 cells.
BTW the explosion part is pretty bad. It doesnt happen often, but check out some of the larger electric planes with lithium's, they will have like 20+ cells. I saw a picture once of what one did to this guys car when it caught fire and blew. His car burnt to pieces along with his rc stuff.
Myabe if electronics manufactures start designing electronics for multiples of 3.6V we could use LI-Poly's, but who knows how long thats gonna take.
BTW the explosion part is pretty bad. It doesnt happen often, but check out some of the larger electric planes with lithium's, they will have like 20+ cells. I saw a picture once of what one did to this guys car when it caught fire and blew. His car burnt to pieces along with his rc stuff.
Myabe if electronics manufactures start designing electronics for multiples of 3.6V we could use LI-Poly's, but who knows how long thats gonna take.
pm I have to say as an avid caver my life depends on my batteries. Everything you have said in your multiple posts is dead on target. I contacted molienergy because they offer AA lithium Ion batteries but they refused to sell them to me because of safety concerns. Kind of funny since several of the guys I cave with have PhD's in Electrical Engineering, yet that didn't matter to them. I'm amazed that they sell the E-Tec 1200 Lithium Polymer Battery you have without the safety circuity. I'm even more amazed that it's only ten bucks!!! I'm really tempted to try it out, but since it would go into a headlamp, maybe I shouldn't.
PS. Have you seen the miniature turbines? Check it out @ http://www.a1hobby.com/turbine.html or do a search on google for miniature airplane turbine. I once saw a guy with a 737 (i think) that had 3 working turbines powering the monsterous model airplane. At 3 G's a pop, a bit pricey tho.
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