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Where are the "Gods and Generals" reviews?

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Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: Dari
let's remember that only the victors write history. here, turner is trying to see it through the eyes of the losers. Honestly, I can't reason paying to see a movie about men romantically fighting for a cause I'm totally against (the enslavement of another human group).

The South wanted to secede. The North said Hell no. The South kicked the North out of their fort in South Carolina. The North invades the South. The South fights back... How is this enslavement of another group? It was about control. The South wanted their own government. The North knew that it was totally fubared without the cheap raw goods from the South as well as the unfair tarriffs that they were levying on said goods.

Slavery would have died shortly anyways due to the invention of Eli Whitney.

Wow. So slavery had nothing to do with the Civil War? You, sir, are a moron. And your last statement makes clear that you are a moron. The cotton gin was invented in 1793. That's 67 years before the civil war.

care to refute that, nitemare?


The gasonline engine was invented around 1860. Automobiles were first invented in 1886. Why did it take Henry Ford until 1908 to start mass producing an automobile so that they become more affordable and less of a novelty item. With the invention of the cotton gin and the assembly line technique it was only a matter of time...
 
Originally posted by: Dari
let's remember that only the victors write history. here, turner is trying to see it through the eyes of the losers. Honestly, I can't reason paying to see a movie about men romantically fighting for a cause I'm totally against (the enslavement of another human group).

How was the enslavement of German and Irish migrant workers in sweat shops as well as the Chinese being enslaved to build the railroads any different???? You did not see anyone invading and waging war over that.


pot...... kettle
 
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: Dari
let's remember that only the victors write history. here, turner is trying to see it through the eyes of the losers. Honestly, I can't reason paying to see a movie about men romantically fighting for a cause I'm totally against (the enslavement of another human group).

The South wanted to secede. The North said Hell no. The South kicked the North out of their fort in South Carolina. The North invades the South. The South fights back... How is this enslavement of another group? It was about control. The South wanted their own government. The North knew that it was totally fubared without the cheap raw goods from the South as well as the unfair tarriffs that they were levying on said goods.

Slavery would have died shortly anyways due to the invention of Eli Whitney.

Wow. So slavery had nothing to do with the Civil War? You, sir, are a moron. And your last statement makes clear that you are a moron. The cotton gin was invented in 1793. That's 67 years before the civil war.

care to refute that, nitemare?


The gasonline engine was invented around 1860. Automobiles were first invented in 1886. Why did it take Henry Ford until 1908 to start mass producing an automobile so that they become more affordable and less of a novelty item. With the invention of the cotton gin and the assembly line technique it was only a matter of time...


lol, talk about deluded apologist drivel. funny how the kkk popped up after the war too, i'm sure thats no indication that the southerners were against change. lol the cotton gin... right😛 you bet slavery was one of the issues they were fighting over, it might not have been the only one, but to pretend it wasnt relavant is sick self delusion.

it was a fight for democracy. no nation that has allowed itself to splinter has survived. the factioning never stops and democracy fails.
 
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: Dari
let's remember that only the victors write history. here, turner is trying to see it through the eyes of the losers. Honestly, I can't reason paying to see a movie about men romantically fighting for a cause I'm totally against (the enslavement of another human group).

How was the enslavement of German and Irish migrant workers in sweat shops as well as the Chinese being enslaved to build the railroads any different???? You did not see anyone invading and waging war over that.


pot...... kettle

so you're saying it was alright for slavery to continue because other groups were allowed to be enslaved and nothing was done about it? Is that your argument?
 
the fact that he tried to compare indentured servitude (irish) and cheap racist labor (chinese) to truely buying and selling people for generations treating them like total animals is a tad deluded.
 
I saw the movie last week and was quite disappointed. I had read the book so I was able to follow the story fairly well. However, I didn't think they really explained anything too well. The movie did not convey enough information about why they were fighting and the characters themselves. I found it a very inefficient use of 3:45.
 
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: Dari
let's remember that only the victors write history. here, turner is trying to see it through the eyes of the losers. Honestly, I can't reason paying to see a movie about men romantically fighting for a cause I'm totally against (the enslavement of another human group).

The South wanted to secede. The North said Hell no. The South kicked the North out of their fort in South Carolina. The North invades the South. The South fights back... How is this enslavement of another group? It was about control. The South wanted their own government. The North knew that it was totally fubared without the cheap raw goods from the South as well as the unfair tarriffs that they were levying on said goods.

Slavery would have died shortly anyways due to the invention of Eli Whitney.

Wow. So slavery had nothing to do with the Civil War? You, sir, are a moron. And your last statement makes clear that you are a moron. The cotton gin was invented in 1793. That's 67 years before the civil war.

care to refute that, nitemare?


The gasonline engine was invented around 1860. Automobiles were first invented in 1886. Why did it take Henry Ford until 1908 to start mass producing an automobile so that they become more affordable and less of a novelty item. With the invention of the cotton gin and the assembly line technique it was only a matter of time...

Only a matter of time? How come the slave population grew dramatically between 1800 and 1860? was it just going to fade out instantaneously.

Finally, to confim that you are a moron, let me explain one thing to you which I let slip by the first time. What do you think the cotton gin did? Pick cotton?

let me tell you...


NO IT DIDN'T PICK COTTON. All the cotton gin did was remove the seeds from the lint. The cotton gin made cotton growing profitable and actually required a huge influx of labor (ie slaves).

Now, quit being stupid and please stop spreading false information.
 
I say just go watch it.
If you don't like it within the first 10 minutes leave and get a refund.
You probably can't judge from the first 10 minutes for a movie almost 4 hours long,
but who knows, if you liked Gettysburg, you just might get hooked.
 
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: Dari
let's remember that only the victors write history. here, turner is trying to see it through the eyes of the losers. Honestly, I can't reason paying to see a movie about men romantically fighting for a cause I'm totally against (the enslavement of another human group).

The South wanted to secede. The North said Hell no. The South kicked the North out of their fort in South Carolina. The North invades the South. The South fights back... How is this enslavement of another group? It was about control. The South wanted their own government. The North knew that it was totally fubared without the cheap raw goods from the South as well as the unfair tarriffs that they were levying on said goods.

Slavery would have died shortly anyways due to the invention of Eli Whitney.

Wow. So slavery had nothing to do with the Civil War? You, sir, are a moron. And your last statement makes clear that you are a moron. The cotton gin was invented in 1793. That's 67 years before the civil war.

care to refute that, nitemare?


The gasonline engine was invented around 1860. Automobiles were first invented in 1886. Why did it take Henry Ford until 1908 to start mass producing an automobile so that they become more affordable and less of a novelty item. With the invention of the cotton gin and the assembly line technique it was only a matter of time...


lol, talk about deluded apologist drivel. funny how the kkk popped up after the war too, i'm sure thats no indication that the southerners were against change. lol the cotton gin... right😛 you bet slavery was one of the issues they were fighting over, it might not have been the only one, but to pretend it wasnt relavant is sick self delusion.

it was a fight for democracy. no nation that has allowed itself to splinter has survived. the factioning never stops and democracy fails.

Our splintering from the British Empire I take it did not succeed. The slavery issue was a mere drop in the bucket. Why were blacks fighting for the confederacy as well? Why did it take 3 years into the war for Lincoln to sign the Emancipation Proclamation? Could it be that the North was getting their ass handed to them and Lincoln had to pull his trump card to gain sympathy, European trade embargos and the likes.

How could the North have the gall to accuse the South of inhumanity to man because they enslaved another group of people, when at the same time, their cities were festering with sweatshops in which migrant workers were forced to work 80 hour weeks processing raw goods procured from slave labor in the South? The North was alot of hypocritical revisionists.

The South was to blame for having slaves, granted...but the North was not dressed all in white with feathery wings adorned by a golden halo.

NO IT DIDN'T PICK COTTON. All the cotton gin did was remove the seeds from the lint. The cotton gin made cotton growing profitable and actually required a huge influx of labor (ie slaves).

Now, quit being stupid and please stop spreading false information.

I take it you have not separated the cotton from the seeds, until you have ...please STFU. Picking cotton is a friggin dream compared to separating it from the seeds. I doubt very seriously that they have many cotton fields up in Massachussets, so I invite you to come down here and try it for yourself. Technology would have phased out slavery. The cotton gin was just the first step. Then would come the tractor followed by the combine. The combine was invented in 1838 but had yet to see mass production to make it affordable. The slave owners would see the error of their ways as well as machinery that could do the work in 1/3 of the time as a boon.
 
we saw this over the weekend & found it a major disappointment - bad writing & acting in spots, cheesy computer-generated battle images, and far too much sympathy for the south.

it was also too long - many scenes should have been extras on the DVD.
 
all the movie reviews in denver both on radio and TV and dogged this movie. One review said that there were way too many speaches, people dont die spewing a speech.

The movie critics here are pretty good and accurate. they havent let me down yet.

I will not be seeing this film.
 
my all time favorite civil war movie is "Glory". i am surprised no one mentioned the film. i have yet to see "Gods and Generals" though.
 
Originally posted by: fluxquantum
my all time favorite civil war movie is "Glory". i am surprised no one mentioned the film. i have yet to see "Gods and Generals" though.

Glory was a great movie as well
 
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: Dari
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: Dari
let's remember that only the victors write history. here, turner is trying to see it through the eyes of the losers. Honestly, I can't reason paying to see a movie about men romantically fighting for a cause I'm totally against (the enslavement of another human group).

The South wanted to secede. The North said Hell no. The South kicked the North out of their fort in South Carolina. The North invades the South. The South fights back... How is this enslavement of another group? It was about control. The South wanted their own government. The North knew that it was totally fubared without the cheap raw goods from the South as well as the unfair tarriffs that they were levying on said goods.

Slavery would have died shortly anyways due to the invention of Eli Whitney.

Wow. So slavery had nothing to do with the Civil War? You, sir, are a moron. And your last statement makes clear that you are a moron. The cotton gin was invented in 1793. That's 67 years before the civil war.

care to refute that, nitemare?


The gasonline engine was invented around 1860. Automobiles were first invented in 1886. Why did it take Henry Ford until 1908 to start mass producing an automobile so that they become more affordable and less of a novelty item. With the invention of the cotton gin and the assembly line technique it was only a matter of time...


lol, talk about deluded apologist drivel. funny how the kkk popped up after the war too, i'm sure thats no indication that the southerners were against change. lol the cotton gin... right😛 you bet slavery was one of the issues they were fighting over, it might not have been the only one, but to pretend it wasnt relavant is sick self delusion.

it was a fight for democracy. no nation that has allowed itself to splinter has survived. the factioning never stops and democracy fails.

Our splintering from the British Empire I take it did not succeed. The slavery issue was a mere drop in the bucket. Why were blacks fighting for the confederacy as well? Why did it take 3 years into the war for Lincoln to sign the Emancipation Proclamation? Could it be that the North was getting their ass handed to them and Lincoln had to pull his trump card to gain sympathy, European trade embargos and the likes.

How could the North have the gall to accuse the South of inhumanity to man because they enslaved another group of people, when at the same time, their cities were festering with sweatshops in which migrant workers were forced to work 80 hour weeks processing raw goods procured from slave labor in the South? The North was alot of hypocritical revisionists.

The South was to blame for having slaves, granted...but the North was not dressed all in white with feathery wings adorned by a golden halo.

NO IT DIDN'T PICK COTTON. All the cotton gin did was remove the seeds from the lint. The cotton gin made cotton growing profitable and actually required a huge influx of labor (ie slaves).

Now, quit being stupid and please stop spreading false information.

I take it you have not separated the cotton from the seeds, until you have ...please STFU. Picking cotton is a friggin dream compared to separating it from the seeds. I doubt very seriously that they have many cotton fields up in Massachussets, so I invite you to come down here and try it for yourself. Technology would have phased out slavery. The cotton gin was just the first step. Then would come the tractor followed by the combine. The combine was invented in 1838 but had yet to see mass production to make it affordable. The slave owners would see the error of their ways as well as machinery that could do the work in 1/3 of the time as a boon.

I agree, technology would have slowly decreased the need for slaves. However, it wouldn't have eliminated it. The slaves weren?t just used on cotton fields: they loaded and unloaded ships and did much of the manual labor in the South. Slavery wouldn?t have died out with new machines. Who would?ve operated them? The plantation owners? I doubt it.

The Southern states, recently, have tried to forget that their ancestors supported slavery and concentrate only on the Civil War as seen through state's rights. Sadly, that is a distorted view of history.

You are right in saying the Union may not have been an angel, but you severely severely distort history. The sweatshop conditions in the Union sucked. HOWEVER, the workers were paid, and free to quit if they felt it was too bad. Furthermore they had the right to protest (many of them did).

This is in NO WAY comparable to slavery. Slavery is the physical ownership over someone else. That in itself is a horrible injustice. If you look at the Union, there were problems, but, as always, it was an attempt to build a more perfect union. And progress was made.

Plus, the war wasn?t about freeing the slaves, it was about reuniting the country. The abolishment of slavery only became a dominant idea towards the end of the war and the EP opened the door for that conversation to start. The Union didn?t parade around saying: ?look at us, we are so perfect.? More like they said: ?You have left our union, we don?t want you too, so it?s time to come back.? No comparison was made to living conditions in the North, so you can?t possibly call them hypocritical.

Slaves fought for the confederacy for two reasons. First, they were promised freedom. Second, many were forced to fight. Don?t try to make it sound like slaves supported the confederacy.

Why did Lincoln sign the emancipation proclamation so late? That should be fairly obvious too. The situation in the Union was very tenuous. Slavery was legal in a few of the states that bordered the south. On top of that, there were draft riots, revolts, etc from the pro-slavery faction of the North. Lincoln had to take care of these issues before he released the Emancipation Proclamation.

The Proclamation itself was not intended to free slaves or abolish slavery, it was a strategy to undermine the south. By declaring slaves in the south free, Lincoln accomplished a few key things. First, the border states didn?t rebel, because slavery was still legal there. Second, the proclamation made it obvious to everyone (including the world) that Lincoln had no intent on giving up until the country was united. Third, many behind the proclamation believed that slaves would start running away and heading to the North. This would undermine the effectiveness of the South?s already weak economy.

As for this:
Could it be that the North was getting their ass handed to them and Lincoln had to pull his trump card to gain sympathy, European trade embargos and the likes.
I will be happy to give you a simple answer: Nope. First, in what way was the North getting their ?asses? handed to them? The anaconda plan called for the Union to attack down the Mississippi and divide the Confederacy. The invasions and battles in Virginia were meaningless. They were supposed to come later, once the Confederacy had been weakened. Lincoln establish the naval blockade to prevent Europeans from interfering and to prevent the confederacy from trading with them. By the third year of the war, this was becoming very effective.


 
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber

I agree, technology would have slowly decreased the need for slaves. However, it wouldn't have eliminated it. The slaves weren?t just used on cotton fields: they loaded and unloaded ships and did much of the manual labor in the South. Slavery wouldn?t have died out with new machines. Who would?ve operated them? The plantation owners? I doubt it.

The Southern states, recently, have tried to forget that their ancestors supported slavery and concentrate only on the Civil War as seen through state's rights. Sadly, that is a distorted view of history.

You are right in saying the Union may not have been an angel, but you severely severely distort history. The sweatshop conditions in the Union sucked. HOWEVER, the workers were paid, and free to quit if they felt it was too bad. Furthermore they had the right to protest (many of them did).

This is in NO WAY comparable to slavery. Slavery is the physical ownership over someone else. That in itself is a horrible injustice. If you look at the Union, there were problems, but, as always, it was an attempt to build a more perfect union. And progress was made.

Plus, the war wasn?t about freeing the slaves, it was about reuniting the country. The abolishment of slavery only became a dominant idea towards the end of the war and the EP opened the door for that conversation to start. The Union didn?t parade around saying: ?look at us, we are so perfect.? More like they said: ?You have left our union, we don?t want you too, so it?s time to come back.? No comparison was made to living conditions in the North, so you can?t possibly call them hypocritical.

Slaves fought for the confederacy for two reasons. First, they were promised freedom. Second, many were forced to fight. Don?t try to make it sound like slaves supported the confederacy.

Why did Lincoln sign the emancipation proclamation so late? That should be fairly obvious too. The situation in the Union was very tenuous. Slavery was legal in a few of the states that bordered the south. On top of that, there were draft riots, revolts, etc from the pro-slavery faction of the North. Lincoln had to take care of these issues before he released the Emancipation Proclamation.

The Proclamation itself was not intended to free slaves or abolish slavery, it was a strategy to undermine the south. By declaring slaves in the south free, Lincoln accomplished a few key things. First, the border states didn?t rebel, because slavery was still legal there. Second, the proclamation made it obvious to everyone (including the world) that Lincoln had no intent on giving up until the country was united. Third, many behind the proclamation believed that slaves would start running away and heading to the North. This would undermine the effectiveness of the South?s already weak economy.

As for this:
Could it be that the North was getting their ass handed to them and Lincoln had to pull his trump card to gain sympathy, European trade embargos and the likes.
I will be happy to give you a simple answer: Nope. First, in what way was the North getting their ?asses? handed to them? The anaconda plan called for the Union to attack down the Mississippi and divide the Confederacy. The invasions and battles in Virginia were meaningless. They were supposed to come later, once the Confederacy had been weakened. Lincoln establish the naval blockade to prevent Europeans from interfering and to prevent the confederacy from trading with them. By the third year of the war, this was becoming very effective.

The Union was dependent on cheap raw material produced from slaves in the South. If they had a problem with the South's use of slave labor, why buy from them to begin with. The Union sweatshop workers were paid, but just enough to get by, not enough to escape their station in life. It was a form of indentured servitude quite like the Jim Crow days in the South. The plantation owners provided slaves with food, clothing and a place to live, which was pretty much all that the sweatshop workers could afford. The only difference would be the color of their skin and the sweatshop worker believing that they were freemen.

The South was dominating the war until they invariably ran out of supplies, 90% of manufacturing in those days occured in the Northern Union states. As the South could not get access to these, nor was Europe going to supply them with munitions. The embargo and cutting off the South from receiving weapons and munitions doomed the South to losing the war.

 
Originally posted by: Nitemare
Originally posted by: BlinderBomber

I agree, technology would have slowly decreased the need for slaves. However, it wouldn't have eliminated it. The slaves weren?t just used on cotton fields: they loaded and unloaded ships and did much of the manual labor in the South. Slavery wouldn?t have died out with new machines. Who would?ve operated them? The plantation owners? I doubt it.

The Southern states, recently, have tried to forget that their ancestors supported slavery and concentrate only on the Civil War as seen through state's rights. Sadly, that is a distorted view of history.

You are right in saying the Union may not have been an angel, but you severely severely distort history. The sweatshop conditions in the Union sucked. HOWEVER, the workers were paid, and free to quit if they felt it was too bad. Furthermore they had the right to protest (many of them did).

This is in NO WAY comparable to slavery. Slavery is the physical ownership over someone else. That in itself is a horrible injustice. If you look at the Union, there were problems, but, as always, it was an attempt to build a more perfect union. And progress was made.

Plus, the war wasn?t about freeing the slaves, it was about reuniting the country. The abolishment of slavery only became a dominant idea towards the end of the war and the EP opened the door for that conversation to start. The Union didn?t parade around saying: ?look at us, we are so perfect.? More like they said: ?You have left our union, we don?t want you too, so it?s time to come back.? No comparison was made to living conditions in the North, so you can?t possibly call them hypocritical.

Slaves fought for the confederacy for two reasons. First, they were promised freedom. Second, many were forced to fight. Don?t try to make it sound like slaves supported the confederacy.

Why did Lincoln sign the emancipation proclamation so late? That should be fairly obvious too. The situation in the Union was very tenuous. Slavery was legal in a few of the states that bordered the south. On top of that, there were draft riots, revolts, etc from the pro-slavery faction of the North. Lincoln had to take care of these issues before he released the Emancipation Proclamation.

The Proclamation itself was not intended to free slaves or abolish slavery, it was a strategy to undermine the south. By declaring slaves in the south free, Lincoln accomplished a few key things. First, the border states didn?t rebel, because slavery was still legal there. Second, the proclamation made it obvious to everyone (including the world) that Lincoln had no intent on giving up until the country was united. Third, many behind the proclamation believed that slaves would start running away and heading to the North. This would undermine the effectiveness of the South?s already weak economy.

As for this:
Could it be that the North was getting their ass handed to them and Lincoln had to pull his trump card to gain sympathy, European trade embargos and the likes.
I will be happy to give you a simple answer: Nope. First, in what way was the North getting their ?asses? handed to them? The anaconda plan called for the Union to attack down the Mississippi and divide the Confederacy. The invasions and battles in Virginia were meaningless. They were supposed to come later, once the Confederacy had been weakened. Lincoln establish the naval blockade to prevent Europeans from interfering and to prevent the confederacy from trading with them. By the third year of the war, this was becoming very effective.

The Union was dependent on cheap raw material produced from slaves in the South. If they had a problem with the South's use of slave labor, why buy from them to begin with. The Union sweatshop workers were paid, but just enough to get by, not enough to escape their station in life. It was a form of indentured servitude quite like the Jim Crow days in the South. The plantation owners provided slaves with food, clothing and a place to live, which was pretty much all that the sweatshop workers could afford. The only difference would be the color of their skin and the sweatshop worker believing that they were freemen.

The South was dominating the war until they invariably ran out of supplies, 90% of manufacturing in those days occured in the Northern Union states. As the South could not get access to these, nor was Europe going to supply them with munitions. The embargo and cutting off the South from receiving weapons and munitions doomed the South to losing the war.

I don't think it will be of anyone's benefit for me to argue my position again on the difference between Northern and Southern economic conditions. I see a distinct difference; you don't. That's fine. The only point I would like to make is on your last staement, the very last part is true: the south may have been destined to lose. But it isn't so cut and dry.

The war in Northern Viriginia went very badly for both sides. The Seven Days for the Union and Antietam for the Confederacy are the two big ones that come to mind (also Fredericksburg, etc). The war was a stalemate: neither side was strong enough to win, but each was too weak to be defeated.

The wars in northern virginia happened because there was a general call by the Union citizens for a direct attack and a big battle. That led to Bull Run, etc... The strategy of the North was actually very effective.

The rest of the war went much better for the Union than the Confederacy. Grant captured Fort Henry and Donelson, won SHiloh (via a Confederate withdrawal and massive losses on both sides: 13,000 dead for the North, 11,000 for the South). In June he captured Memphis and began the siege of Vicksburg in November. Admiral David Farragut captured New Orleans in April. This sealed the fate of the Mississippi. Union forces also defatead a large Confederate force at Glorieta Pass, which sealed victory for the Union in the west.

 
Our splintering from the British Empire I take it did not succeed. The slavery issue was a mere drop in the bucket. Why were blacks fighting for the confederacy as well? Why did it take 3 years into the war for Lincoln to sign the Emancipation Proclamation? Could it be that the North was getting their ass handed to them and Lincoln had to pull his trump card to gain sympathy, European trade embargos and the likes


err, did you didn't read carefully. since when was america an equal partner in democracy and one with england? you can't splinter what did not exist, sorry.

as for the proclamation, lincoln did not want to lose the support of their border states. its called diplomacy. you make it sound as if there was slavery of african americans in the north, sorry not true.

bend over backwards being an apologist, thats all you are.
 
It appears a lot of people are panning this movie because it portrays the truth about why the war was waged. Slavery wasn't even an issue until Lincoln made it an issue to win Europe's support away from the South. In fact, the Emancipation Proclamation wasn't even issued until two years AFTER the war started. When Lincoln was elected, he plainly stated that he had NO intention of ending slavery in the Southern states. Europe was a major consumer of Southern cotton. Were it not for the Emancipation Proclamation, many European countries might have thrown their support behind the South for economic reasons.

Some people just do not want to accept that reality. If the North could have won the war by endorcing slavery, they would have. If they could have won the war by being indifferent to slavery, they would have.

In other words, slavery was not the issue. The vast majority of southerners didn't even own a slave.

 
actually it was an issue like it or not. else the north would have had slavery and there wouldn't be an arguement at all about new states would be slave vs non slaves states joining the union. indifference means they wouldn't have cared at all. only way the apologist viewpoint would be supported would be if all states were freedom to own slavery states and abolition wasn't mainly in the north.
 
i seem to also remember the fugitive slave bill being passed to appease southern states since blacks kept running away to free states😛
 
The vast majority of southerners didn't even own a slave.



slavery stats


1/3 owned slaves. not exactly a vast majority not owning.


Almost one-third of all Southern families owned slaves. In Mississippi and South Carolina it approached one half. The total number of slave owners was 385,000 (including, in Louisiana, some free Negroes). As for the number of slaves owned by each master, 88% held fewer than twenty, and nearly 50% held fewer than five. (A complete table on slave-owning percentages is given at the bottom of this page.)

For comparison's sake, let it be noted that in the 1950's, only 2% of American families owned corporation stocks equal in value to the 1860 value of a single slave. Thus, slave ownership was much more widespread in the South than corporate investment was in 1950's America.

On a typical plantation (more than 20 slaves) the capital value of the slaves was greater than the capital value of the land and implements.
 
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
The vast majority of southerners didn't even own a slave.



slavery stats


1/3 owned slaves. not exactly a vast majority not owning.


Almost one-third of all Southern families owned slaves. In Mississippi and South Carolina it approached one half. The total number of slave owners was 385,000 (including, in Louisiana, some free Negroes). As for the number of slaves owned by each master, 88% held fewer than twenty, and nearly 50% held fewer than five. (A complete table on slave-owning percentages is given at the bottom of this page.)

For comparison's sake, let it be noted that in the 1950's, only 2% of American families owned corporation stocks equal in value to the 1860 value of a single slave. Thus, slave ownership was much more widespread in the South than corporate investment was in 1950's America.

On a typical plantation (more than 20 slaves) the capital value of the slaves was greater than the capital value of the land and implements.

Bullsh!t.

Referencing an AOL homepage, OO?

I went to the site they list as their source, and someone is in serious need of a math lesson:


State--- -------TOTAL NO. OF SLAVEHOLDERS------- AGGR. NO. OF WHITE PERSONS
ALABAMA----- ----------33730------- --------------------------------526271
ARKANSAS ---------------11481----- -------------------------------324143
CALIFORNIA------- ----------M--------------------------------------- 323177
CONNECTICUT-------------- M--------------------------------------- 451504
DELAWARE--------- --------587-------------------------------------- 90589
FLORIDA----------- --------5152-------------------------------------- 77747
GEORGIA----------------- 41084------------------------------------- 591550
ILLINOIS-------------------- M--------------------------------------- 1704291
INDIANA---------------------- M------------------------------------- 1338710
IOWA -------------------------M------------------------------------- 673779
KANSAS---------------------- 2--------------------------------------- 106390
KENTUCKY--------------- 38645------------------------------------ 919484
LOUISIANA------------- 22033--------------------------------- 357456
MAINE---------------------- M-------------------------------------- 626947
MARYLAND-------------- 13783----------------------------------- 515918
MASSACHUSETTS---------- M------------------------------------ 1221432
MICHIGAN------------------ M------------------------------------- 736142
MINNESOTA---------------- M -------------------------------------169395
MISSISSIPPI-------------- 30943--------------------------------- 353899
MISSOURI------------------- 24320------------------------------- 1063489
NEBRASKA -------------------6-------------------------------------- 28696
NEVADA--------------------- M--------------------------------------- 6812
NEW HAMPSHIRE---------- M-------------------------------------- 325579
NEW JERSEY---------------- M-------------------------------------- 646699
NEW YORK----------------- M--------------------------------------- 3831590
NORTH CAROLINA------ 34658----------------------------------- 629942
OHIO------------------------ M------------------------------------- 2302808
OREGON------------------- M---------------------------------------- 52160
PENNSYLVANIA----------- M-------------------------------------- 2849259
RHODE ISLAND----------- M-------------------------------------- 170649
SOUTH CAROLINA------- 26701-------------------------------- 291300
TENNESSEE-------------- 36844--------------------------------- 826722
TEXAS------------------ 21878------------------------------------ 420891
VERMONT--------------- M------------------------------------------ 314369
VIRGINIA---------------- 52128----------------------------------- 1047299
WISCONSIN------------- M------------------------------------------ 773693

I repeat, the vast majority did not own slaves.



 
funny, since slavery wasn't an issue.... this is kind of funny.

south carolina addressing the other slave holding states on secession. u know.. since slavery wasn't a factor.

"It cannot be believed that our ancestors would have assented to any union whatever with the people of the North if the feelings and opinions now existing among them had existed when the Constitution was framed. There was then no tariff -- no negro fanaticism. It was the delegates from New England who proposed in the Convention which framed the Constitution, to the delegates from South Carolina and Georgia, that if they would agree to give Congress the power of regulating commerce by a majority, that they would support the extension of the African slave-trade for twenty years. African Slavery existed in all the States but one. The idea that they would be made to pay that tribute to their Northern confederates which they had refused to pay to Great Britain, or that the institution of African Slavery would be made the grand basis of a sectional organization of the North to rule the South, never crossed their imaginations. The Union of the Constitution was a Union of slaveholding States. It rests on Slavery, by prescribing a representation in Congress for three-fifths of our slaves. There is nothing in the proceedings of the Convention which framed the Constitution to show that the Southern States would have formed any other union; and still less that they would have formed a union with more powerful non-slaveholding States, having a majority in both branches of the Legislature of the Government. They were guilty of no such folly. Time and the progress of things have totally altered the relations between the Northern and Southern States since the Union was first established. That identity of feeling, interests, and institutions which once existed is gone. They are now divided between agricultural and manufacturing and commercial States -- between slaveholding and non-slaveholding States. Their institutions and industrial pursuits have made them totally different peoples. That equality in the Government between the two sections of the Union which once existed, no longer exists. We but imitate the policy of our fathers in dissolving a union with non-slaveholding confederates, and seeking a confederation with slave-holding States.

Experience has proved that slave-holding States can not be safe in subjection to non-slaveholding States. Indeed, no people ever expect to preserve their rights and liberties unless they are in their own custody. To plunder and oppress where plunder and oppression can be practiced with impunity, seems to be the natural order of things. The fairest portions of the world have been turned into wildernesses, and the most civilized and prosperous communities have been impoverished and ruined by Anti-Slavery fanaticism. The people of the North have not left us in doubt as to their designs and policy. United as a section in the late Presidential election, they have elected as the exponent of their policy one who has openly declared that all the States of the United States must be made Free States or Slave States. It is true that among those who aided in this election, there are various shades of Anti-Slavery hostility. But if African Slavery in the Southern States be the evil their political combinations affirm it to be, the requisitions of an inexorable logic must lead them to emancipation. If it is right to preclude or abolish Slavery in a territory, why should it be allowed to remain in the States? The one is not at all more unconstitutional than the other, according to the decisions of the Supreme Court of the United States. And when it is considered that the Northern States will soon have the power to make that Court what they please, and that the Constitution has never been any barrier whatever to their exercise of power, what check can there be in the unrestrained councils of the North to emancipation? There is sympathy in association, which carries men along without principle; but when there is principle, and that principle is fortified by long existing prejudices and feelings, association is omnipotent in party influences. In spite of all disclaimers and professions there can be but one end to the submission by the South to the rule of a sectional Anti-Slavery Government at Washington; and that end, directly or indirectly, must be the emancipation of the slaves of the South. The hypocrisy of thirty years -- the faithlessness of their whole course from the commencement of our union with them -- show that the people of the non-slaveholding North are not and cannot be safe associates of the slaveholding South under a common Government. Not only their fanaticism, but their erroneous views of the principles of free governments, render it doubtful whether, separated from the South, they can maintain a free Government among themselves. Brute numbers with them is the great element of free Government. A majority is infallible and omnipotent. "The right divine to rule in kings" is only transferred to their majority. The very object of all constitutions, in free, popular Governments, is to restrain the majority. Constitutions, therefore, according to their theory, must be most unrighteous inventions, restricting liberty. None ought to exist, but the body politic ought simply to have a political organization, to bring out and enforce the will of a majority. This theory may be harmless in a small community, having an identity of interests and pursuits, but over a vast State -- still more, over a vast Confederacy, having various and conflicting interests and pursuits -- it is a remorseless despotism. In resisting it, as applicable to ourselves, we are vindicating the great cause of free government, more important, perhaps, to the world than the existence of the United States. Nor in resisting it, do we intend to depart from the safe instrumentality the system of government we have established with them requires. In separating from them we invade no rights -- no interest of theirs. We violate no obligation of duty to them. As separate, independent States in Convention, we made the Constitution of the United States with them; and as separate, independent States, each State acting for itself, we adopted it. South Carolina, acting in her sovereign capacity now thinks proper to secede from the Union. She did not part with her sovereignty in adopting the Constitution. The last thing a State can be presumed to have surrendered is her sovereignty. Her sovereignty is her life. Nothing but a clear, express grant, can alienate it. Inference should be dumb. Yet it is not at all surprising that those who have construed away all the limitations of the Constitution, should also by construction claim the annihilation of the sovereignty of the States. Having abolished all barriers to their omnipotence by their faithless constructions in the operations of the General Government, it is most natural that they should endeavor to do the same toward us in the States. The truth is, they having violated the express provisions of the Constitution, it is at an end as a compact. It is morally obligatory only on those who choose to accept its perverted terms. South Carolina, deeming the compact not only violated in particular features, but virtually abolished by her Northern confederates, withdraws herself as a party from its obligations. The right to do so is denied by her Northern confederates. They desire to establish a despotism, not only omnipotent in Congress, but omnipotent over the States; and as if to manifest the imperious necessity of our secession, they threaten us with the sword, to coerce submission to their rule.

Citizens of the slaveholding States of the United States, circumstances beyond our control have placed us in the van of the great controversy between the Northern and Southern States. We would have preferred that other States should have assumed the position we now occupy. Independent ourselves, we disclaim any design or desire to lead the councils of the other Southern States. Providence has cast our lot together, by extending over us an identity of pursuits, interests, and institutions. South Carolina desires no destiny separated from yours. To be one of a great slaveholding confederacy, stretching its arms over a territory larger than any Power in Europe possesses -- with population four times greater than that of the whole United States when they achieved their independence of the British Empire -- with productions which make our existence more important to the world than that of any other people inhabiting it -- with common institutions to defend, and common dangers to encounter -- we ask your sympathy and confederation. While constituting a portion of the United States, it has been your statesmanship which has guided it in its mighty strides to power and expansion. In the field, as in the Cabinet, you have led the way to its renown and grandeur. You have loved the Union, in whose service your great statesmen have labored, and your great soldiers have fought and conquered -- not for the material benefits it conferred, but with the faith of a generous and devoted chivalry. You have long lingered and hoped over the shattered remains of a broken Constitution. Compromise after compromise, formed by your concessions, has been trampled under foot by your Northern confederates. All fraternity of feeling between the North and the South is lost, or has been converted into hate; and we of the South are at last driven together by the stern destiny which controls the existence of nations. Your bitter experience of the faithlessness and rapacity of your Northern confederates may have been necessary to evolve those great principles of free government, upon which the liberties of the world depend, and to prepare you for the grand mission of vindicating and re- establishing them. We rejoice that other nations should be satisfied with their institutions. Self-complacency is a great element of happiness, with nations as with individuals. We are satisfied with ours. If they prefer a system of industry in which capital and labor are in perpetual conflict -- and chronic starvation keeps down the natural increase of population -- and a man is worked out in eight years -- and the law ordains that children shall be worked only ten hours a day -- and the sabre and bayonet are the instruments of order -- be it so. It is their affair, not ours. We prefer, however, our system of industry, by which labor and capital are identified in interest, and capital, therefore, protects labor; by which our population doubles every twenty years; by which starvation is unknown, and abundance crowns the land; by which order is preserved by unpaid police, and the most fertile regions of the world where the Caucasian cannot labor are brought into usefulness by the labor of the African, and the whole world is blessed by our own productions. All we demand of other peoples is to be let alone to work out our own high destinies. United together, and we must be the most independent, as we are the most important among the nations of the world. United together, and we require no other instrument to conquer peace than our beneficent productions. United together, and we must be a great, free and prosperous people, whose renown must spread throughout the civilized world, and pass down, we trust, to the remotest ages. We ask you to join us in forming a confederacy of Slaveholding States.
[/b]http://members.aol.com/jfepperson/rhett.html







actually i believe the interpretation is by familys which would exclude children etc since family units weren't spread out back then. you have a family farm, you have a family slave ownership. thats how it probably breaks down. in any case, its not insignificant.

here's a kinder chart, it shows 24% owned slaves

but thats an average of many states, in certain states it was a lot higher as stated before.


its like 1 in 4 people owning a ferrari. not insignificant


another supporting 1/3. http://www.mcps.org/ss/5thgrade/selectedstat.pdf easier to read in pdf of course.
Selected Statistics on Slavery in the United States
Region
Number of
Slaves
Percentage of
Total Population
Lower South 2,312,3522 47%
Upper South 1,208,758 29%
Border States 432,586 13%


Almost one-third of all Southern families owned slaves.
In Mississippi and South Carolina the slave population
approached one half of the total population. Eighty-eight
percent of slave owners held fewer than twenty slaves, and
nearly fifty percent owned fewer than five.
To make these figures easier to understand consider
that in the 1950s, only two percent of American families
owned stock equal in value to the 1860 value of a single
slave. Slave owning was far more widespread in the South
than corporate investment in America in the 1950s. On a
plantation holding more than twenty slaves, the value of the
slaves was greater than the capital value of the land and
implements.
The increased value of slaves made the institution
highly profitable. While the South was home to only 30% of
the nation?s free population, it had sixty percent of the
wealthiest men. The 1860 per capita income in the South in
1860 was $3,978, while in the North it was but $2,040.
The table below illustrates the extent of slave
ownership in 1860 in each of the states that allowed it. The
figures show the percentage of slave-owning families as a
fraction of total free households in the state.
Mississippi 49% Louisiana 29% Kentucky 23%
S.Carolina 46% Texas 28% Arkansas 20%
Georgia 37% N. Carolina 28% Missouri 13%
Alabama 35% Virginia 26% Maryland 12%
Florida 34% Tennessee 25% Delaware 3%
!" In the Lower South, where the first states seceded?SC,
GA, MS, AL, TX, FL?about 37% of the white families
owned slaves.
!" In the Middle South, the states that seceded only after
Fort Sumter was fired upon?VA, NC, TN, AR?the
percentage is about 25%.
!" The total for the two combined regions is about 31%.
!" In the Border States?DE, MD, KY, MO?the percentage of
slave ownership was about 16%. These slave-holding
states did not secede and remained in the Union.
!" The total throughout the slave states was 26%.




 
I wish I had read this thread and seen the reviews before I bought this POS movie.

I would sooner have both my eyes put out with sharp sticks dipped in pox infected monkey excrement than to watch this drivel again!

BTW: This DVD will soon be for sale in the for sale / trade forum if anyone wants it! 😉
 
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