Where are all the reasonably priced Haswell & Kabini ultrabooks?

[bullzz]

@Fjodor2001
i wud say wait till holidays and you may be able to find one. its really possible with kabini but OEMs are not doing that. may be u may find one with a core i3

 

[Homeles]

Cliffs : buy a Macbook. Seriously. You can install Win7 or Win8 on them no problem if you want to run Windows instead of OSX.

The quality just isn't there for PC notebooks once you get to that level. Of course you can build higher-end PC notebooks, but they're invariably beastly huge desktop-replacement ones. All of the PC 'ultrabooks' I've used have been disappointing. My personal notebook is a chunky Dell Vostro i5, mainly because I don't travel with a laptop, and I got this thing almost for free. i5, 8GB 1600, 256 840 Pro, Nvidia something or other (good enough for light gaming, but not high end lol), etc. It's got 1600x900 @ 17.3", which is not even 1080p, to say nothing of rMBP displays. Imho those ultra high res displays would be somewhat wasted on PC notebooks anyway, due to Windows not really scaling all that well with small screens and ultra high pixel density. I once had a 1920x1200 14" Thinkpad, and it was almost unbearable. I could get many things to blow up to visible size, but often felt like an airline passenger looking down at ant people's writings. Standard size text on the start menu was like 1/8" of an inch tall lol. Not something you could sit in front of without hunching over to use.

/cliffs : buy a Mac.

They're $1500, though. They're fantastic computers, but in order to pick one up, a lot of hurt has to be inflicted on your wallet. The SSD is only 128 GB in the stock configuration, too.

 

[2is]

In terms of ultra books, the MacBook Air is actually quite cheap though it does fall behind many windows based ultra books in terms of screen quality, many of which are using 1080p ips displays compared to the MacBooks 1440x900 TN display.

That said, I've found the Asus Zenbook to have every bit the build quality of a MacBook Air. The trackpad isn't as good, but the screen is better. It's also more expensive iirc. The MBA is probably the best buy here in terms of value, it also holds its value better.

 

[Homeles]

Honestly, I can't tell the difference between modern Mac and PC trackpads running up to date drivers/firmware these days.

 

[Abwx]

They don't want to earn "only" 100$. Whole idea for ultrabooks (inlcuing MacAir) - at least for now - is that it is supposed to be high profit margins product.

From their POV they are priced , well , reasonably....

 

[Aikouka]

Eh, I own a Zenbook UX31, and unless you absolutely need ridiculous amounts of power off-battery (mine's IVB, so it's not much better), just buy a cheaper, thicker notebook. It just isn't worth it. Heck, I'm probably going to sell my Zenbook once ASUS fixes the (proprietary :|) SSD in it. I'll most likely end up picking up a 13" (or maybe 15") Clevo gaming laptop to replace it. I'll take the extra weight and slightly higher cost for more versatility.

 

[2is]

Honestly, I can't tell the difference between modern Mac and PC trackpads running up to date drivers/firmware these days.

I can, as can just about any review comparing them. There's no doubt the PC trackpads are getting better on some of the higher end models, but they're still not in the same league.

 

[blackened23]

I can, as can just about any review comparing them. There's no doubt the PC trackpads are getting better on some of the higher end models, but they're still not in the same league.

Pretty much. Every ultrabook trackpad i've used isn't as responsive as the MBP trackpad....

Really frustrating when the mouse cursor doesn't move as planned or moves erratically. Yet another side effect of PC manufacturers going the cheap route instead of the quality route......I hope someone steps up this fall with an actual good ultrabook that can compete with the rMBP.

 

[Sheep221]

Personally for me, thinner is much better. Carrying a 16 pound laptop around an airport, for example, gets annoying after a while - the ultrabook is a superior form factor. That being said, the small form-factor does cost slightly more due to using ultra low power components such as ULV CPUs (whereas full laptops don't bother) so the prices aren't directly comparable. You pay for the smaller form factor, but it's worth it for me.

A laptop is fine if it is mostly stationary, I know a ton of folks with full sized gaming laptops and they generally don't carry them around a lot. Ultrabooks are just far better for actually being on the move a lot, though.

Regular 14" laptops are not much heavier than ultrabooks, unless you really do carry alot more stuff with you, I don't see carrying solely a laptop as big disadvantage over weight difference to ultrabook.

 

[Zodiark1593]

My bet is on next year.

You know, I swear there was someone who said that last year, and the year before that, and the year before that.

Anyway, I'm really glad I have little concern for Ultrabooks, a gaming lappy is more my speed.

 

[tential]

Everything the OP mentioned is in a laptop offered by Acer. I'm getting my little brother one. Acer V7 I think (or V3). You can find it on their website not too hard.

 

[monstercameron]

soooo close http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/review/2290697/samsung-ativ-book-9-lite-review

an average of 24fps in our least taxing Crysis benchmark indicates that gaming potential is limited to the most undemanding titles, http://www.pcpro.co.uk/reviews/laptops/383779/samsung-ativ-book-9-lite

how absurd would that be 2-3 years ago...

 

[Fjodor2001]

300$ like this? Or 430$ for the 2½" version.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...9SIA0AJ0ZA6686

Also you forget mSATA/NGFF cost more.

$338 here:

http://www.macmall.com/p/product~dpn...90~pdp.iaeefcb

And then I searched for only 1 minute. I bet you can get it even cheaper if looking some more. Also, remember that this is the customer sales price in a store including tax etc. If you buy them in 10.000-100.000+ quantities it should much cheaper, which is what we're looking at when calculating the BOM.

And remember to add 100$ to the BOM for inventory, marketing, distribution, support, RMA and so on. Then another 25$ for manufactoring, 50$ for Windows. And you can keep on adding cost.

That's $175 right there without any hardware BOM cost even having been added. Could that really be true? Then how come they can sell $200 Netbooks or $400 laptops, which should carry similar costs too?

They cant. Look at your own specs again. You essentially want the best there is for...cheap.

I'm not sure what my specs have to do with that? What I was questioning was if the fixed costs you mentioned really could be that high, since similar costs should apply to low spec Netbooks and Laptops too at below $400. You said they could not sell laptops at that price, but check this out:

Here you can find a laptop for just $279.

Here are plenty of other ones below $400.

How is that possible if you say there are fixed costs at $175 without even including any hardware? For the $279 laptop you would then only have $279-175=$104 left for all the hardware and any profit that the manufacturer and store should make.

 

[ShintaiDK]

$338 here:

http://www.macmall.com/p/product~dpn...90~pdp.iaeefcb

And then I searched for only 1 minute. I bet you can get it even cheaper if looking some more. Also, remember that this is the customer sales price in a store including tax etc. If you buy them in 10.000-100.000+ quantities it should much cheaper, which is what we're looking at when calculating the BOM.



I'm not sure what my specs have to do with that? What I was questioning was if the fixed costs you mentioned really could be that high, since similar costs should apply to low spec Netbooks and Laptops too at below $400. You said they could not sell laptops at that price, but check this out:

Here you can find a laptop for just $279.

Here are plenty of other ones below $400.

How is that possible if you say there are fixed costs at $175 without even including any hardware? For the $279 laptop you would then only have $279-175=$104 left for all the hardware and any profit that the manufacturer should make.

You cant just transfer the associated cost of a higher end product to a lowend. Volume, RMA cost, support cost etc is different.

Try see how many 480/500GB mSATA/NGFF SSDs you can find, in stock and at what price.

Your wishlist and the price you are willing to pay dont mix (Like in your previous CPU threads). Maybe in a few years. But certainly not now. Hell, even some parts of your wishlist doesnt exist in the products today.

But I'm looking for a $800-1000 Haswell based Ultrabook with 8GB RAM/250-500 GB SSD/2C4T@~1.6GHz/3.0GHz Turbo CPU, decent 1080p or higher resolution 11-13" matte IPS display, nice keyboard/trackpad, good I/O options, and excellent battery life. Optionally a similar one based on a Kabini CPU for around $500-700.

Are my expectations unrealistic?

Yes. And you can end the thread there.

 

[Fjodor2001]

You cant just transfer the associated cost of a higher end product to a lowend. Volume, RMA cost, support cost etc is different.

Sure, but the numbers you mentioned just seem too far off to be realistic anyway. Since you have no proof to back it up, I assume it was just a wild-ass guess from your side.

Your wishlist and the price you are willing to pay dont mix (Like in your previous CPU threads). Maybe in a few years. But certainly not now. Hell, even some parts of your wishlist doesnt exist in the products today.

What part is it that doesn't exist? Also, note that question in the OP is looking ahead a few months too (until around the time of the Windows 8.1 release) regarding what's likely to become available.

In addition, based on the answers from others the expectations in the OP doesn't seem too far off. It might not be possible to get it for $1000, but pretty close to that. Certainly for $1100-$1300.

Yes. And you can end the thread there.

Others seem to disagree. Also, you're not in a position to tell the other members on this forum when to end threads.

 

[ShintaiDK]

How many 1080p 11"-13" screens do you know of for example? Even Apple's Airbooks doesnt support that.

Since you are sure it can be made for 1100-1300$. Why dont you show us? Then you can just mail the OEMs afterwards and show them the business case of the easy profit to be made.

 

[blackened23]

It should be noted that panel resolution makes a HUGE difference in terms of price - the smaller a screen is in size (given the same resolution) the price goes up exponentially. A 1080p panel in a 11 inch form factor is still relatively costly, and that definitely translates to higher prices with ultrabooks.

You *might* be able to find a sub 1000$ ultrabook with 1080p, but only heavily discounted 1-2 year old models. It definitely is not the norm. The cost of materials for a 1080p screen with a ULV CPU is more than you might think.

 

[Fjodor2001]

How many 1080p 11"-13" screens do you know of for example? Even Apple's Airbooks doesnt support that.

Here are 16 Ultrabooks with 1080p displays with various screen sizes, mostly between 11-13.3" (and this was from back in March 2013):

http://ultrabooknews.com/2013/03/24/16-ultrabooks-with-1080p-displays/

Since you are sure it can be made for 1100-1300$. Why dont you show us? Then you can just mail the OEMs afterwards and show them the business case of the easy profit to be made.

Start with this ASUS UX31A-DB51 for example:

http://www.microcenter.com/product/394505/UX31A-DB51_133_Ultrabook_Computer_-_Silver_Aluminum

It has Intel Core i5-3317U, 128 GB SSD, 4 GB RAM, 13.3" 1080p display and costs $656. That leaves you $1300-656=$644 left. Are you saying it's unlikely that they can make a similar Haswell based one with 4 GB additional RAM and 256 GB SSD instead of 128 GB for $644 more?

 

[ShintaiDK]

1099$ orginally, its discounted because its EOL and to clear any remaining stock. On top of that you need 4GB memory extra 384GB extra SSD, 100$ more in CPU to get what you want and so on. So to get what you want, you have to pay around 1500$. But you only wish to pay 1000.

No wonder most of those 1080p ultrabooks are around 1200$. And thats not gonna change just because we got Haswell and Kabini. And certainly not with the specs you request.

 

[Fjodor2001]

1099$ orginally, its discounted because its EOL and to clear any remaining stock. On top of that you need 4GB memory extra 384GB extra SSD, 100$ more in CPU to get what you want and so on. So to get what you want, you have to pay around 1500$. But you only wish to pay 1000.

No wonder most of those 1080p ultrabooks are around 1200$. And thats not gonna change just because we got Haswell and Kabini. And certainly not with the specs you request.

$1099 was the MSRP originally, but it could be had cheaper than that. Also, 1080p displays and SSDs have come down in price since then. This also accounts for the price drop.

The thing is though that the manufacturers usually release the most expensive top-end products just after a new Intel CPU has been releases. It was the same with IB. Then a couple of months later there is a second wave with lower priced products released. It's that wave I'm interested in for Haswell and Kabini.

So far I've not seem many such products being released (neither for Haswell nor Kabini), but they ought to pop up soon based on how it's been for previous new CPU releases. Looking at previous pricing and the fact that SSDs and 1080p displays have come down in price, I would say it's highly likely that there will be Ultrabooks matching the requirements in the OP at least within the $1100-$1200 range, and I would not be surprised if we'll see 256 GB SSD versions at around or below $1000 by Christmas.

Intel seems to agree:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2417076,00.asp

"Intel plans to hit the holiday season running with new ultrabooks sporting the chip giant's next-generation "Haswell" processors, faster solid state drives (SSDs), high-res displays, support for touch screens as well as voice and facial recognition, and "all day" battery life, according to CRN. The best part for price-conscious consumers—the Haswell generation of ultra-slim, fast-booting laptops will be available for under $600."

 

[blackened23]

Why are you arguing with *us* about the price? It's not like we have control of matters.

It is what it is. The market and the demand determine the price, so you can get a heavily discounted 1-2 year old model for a lower price or get a new model for around 1k with a 1366p screen. The screens despite what you may think, are fairly expensive - small form factor screens are exponentially higher in cost. ULV CPUs are also fairly expensive unless you get a low end model or discounted 1-2 year old model.

1080p screens are not the norm for that price range unless you get a hulking laptop. Personally i'd rather have a Haswell ultrabook / macbook with 12 hours of battery life, I find this preferable to a huge 16 pound laptop with 4 hours of battery life. Honestly, i've never found a 1366p screen too distracting, it is definitely usable. It's not as high in terms of quality as the retina MBP, but usable nonetheless since 1366p is generally a small 11-13 inch screen and therefore pretty easy on the eyes. 1080p really is more suitable to larger screens such as a 13 to 15 inch model, which also ties in with overall cost.

Would I love for ultrabooks with 1080p screens to cost 500$? Sure. But I just don't see that happening anytime soon, so we just have to deal with things as they are. Right now 500$ is the upper range for high end tablets, and the 500-800$ range is for low end, low resolution clearance ultrabooks. What I would do in your situation is just shop for a clearance model IVB ultrabook from last year - I don't see a 1080p Haswell ULV ultrabook in that price range. You can also wait for perhaps a Black Friday sale, i'm sure you can find a heavily discounted Haswell ultrabook during that time frame - since Haswell is still new, that means you will likely pay full price at this time. Just wait a few months. If you absolutely must get an ultrabook now, vote with your wallet if you find the price unacceptable. SKUs that don't sell generally lower in price fairly rapidly.

 

[MichaelBarg]

This whole thread should be exhibit A for why PC sales are declining. The three things an average user is most likely to notice: better display, SSD, better trackpad/keyboard/case. They are unlikely to notice faster CPU/GPU, more RAM or in most cases even larger hard drives. Nonetheless the OEMs focus almost exclusively on the latter. No wonder customers don't much care about upgrading or buying premium price products.

 

[2is]

Others seem to disagree. Also, you're not in a position to tell the other members on this forum when to end threads.

Disagree in what sense? If these laptops were available at the price you wanted, you wouldn't have erected this thread. While anyone is free to "disagree" it just means they're wrong, and unless you can somehow get a product that doesn't exist in your hands, it just means you're wrong as well and thus, the thread should end here. Continuing it is just an act of stubbornness on your part.

 

[StrangerGuy]

This whole thread should be exhibit A for why PC sales are declining. The three things an average user is most likely to notice: better display, SSD, better trackpad/keyboard/case. They are unlikely to notice faster CPU/GPU, more RAM or in most cases even larger hard drives. Nonetheless the OEMs focus almost exclusively on the latter. No wonder customers don't much care about upgrading or buying premium price products.

Heh, guess who are the suppliers that profits the most out of PCs which are also the ones that are non-negotiable on pricing for the most part, which is exactly why OEMs has to cut down on other stuff. I'm pretty sure it's not the people that make the chassis, screens, PSUs, RAM, mobos and drives.

 

[MichaelBarg]

Heh, guess who are the suppliers that profits the most out of PCs which are also the ones that are non-negotiable on pricing for the most part, which is exactly why OEMs has to cut down on other stuff. I'm pretty sure it's not the people that make the chassis, screens, PSUs, RAM, mobos and drives.

True enough, but no excuse IMO. Intel squeezes the OEMs with chips, but so what? Most users would not notice the difference between an I7 and an I3 most of the time. Save a few bucks there and spend them on other, more noticeable improvements. Better screens move cell phones, there's no reason not to expect them to move laptops.

The PC OEMs should be embarrassed that the best Windows laptop is a Mac. http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-57581290-37/macbook-pro-declared-best-performing-windows-laptop/ They produce low quality products, even at premium prices, and their customers respond accordingly by buying primarily on price.

[edit]

Let me put it this way: most laptops above about $800 could be better products by re-directing some of the bill of materials away from the traditional specs which are used to market PCs. OEMs largely have doubled down on features that do not materially impact the user experience for the majority of their customers.