:music: Why don't you ask the kids at Tiananmen square?
Was Fashion the reason why they were there?
They disguise it, Hypnotize it
Television made you buy it :music:
Was Fashion the reason why they were there?
They disguise it, Hypnotize it
Television made you buy it :music:
Where do you see 100k+ people protest on the street? not just in HK. link
LOL China bend over? when? People have been protesting every year in Hong Kong, but it hasn't accomplished anything. When major international papers write stuff, does the Chinese government listen? no.
And of course HK's government is small. Why would you need a big government? you have little territory, and your defense is ensured by China. A really small government is all you need for a puppet one.
Originally posted by: maddogchen
Originally posted by: DaWhim
sound like the OP to me. :laugh:
I don't think taiwan is any better than china. HK FTW
LOL HK FTW, in my opinion HK is worse off than either one of them. You can't vote for you leader and you aren't even in control of your own destiny like China or Taiwan.
Hey if you're this passionate about a 1 cihna, just invade, there's nothing stopping you, you have the support of the amricanns. Just shut up and do it stop complaining about bs and do something to prove that you guys arent just whinos that lost power in a civil war due to massive lack of goverment support and now we are going to come and finish the war by integrating you. All Taiwan has done is complain about threats and then do nothing about anything. That's a reliable goverment. If america adopted that model, we still be under parliamentary rule.
Seriously, I could care less about politics and all that bs. In the end, nohing realyl changes all that much. I just hate that people that complain, spread hate and then do nothing to fix their problems. To me you're as bas as those few select poor that just donr care and that freeload off welfare system, complaining you cant get a job because no one gives you a chance, cashing your checks and then sitting no your butt never trying to find a job because welfare pays for everything yuo need.
link
that was 2 years ago. I guess this answered you first two question.
by big government, I mean in term of fiscal policy.
HK is more like a pain to china than a puppet, think again. why do you think china take back hk? it is nothing more than an example to show taiwan for reunitification purpose.
All of this knee-jerk reactionary talk really irks me. I was born in China and came to the U.S. at a very young age. Some of my extended family are high-ranking members of the communist party and some of my extended family are strong opposition. I visit China frequently, on average one to two months a year. I have studied as much modern Chinese history as I can from all kinds of sources and the reality that I see before me is such:
1. The Nationalist party was overthrown because they did not have the support of the people. They lost power because they abused it with their own extreme corruption.
2. The Communist party started with knives and pamphlets. The garnered the peoples' support mainly because the KMD was so oppressive in the first place.
3. The Communist party is bad. There are no two ways about it. They have come to represent everything that the Nationalists were hated for. I know what corruption is all about. I have heard talk about people getting favors because they know people I know. This kind of corruption is rampant and EVERYONE in urban China (I cannot speak for rural) knows about it. Communist BS is all over the place, but no one other than old converts (literally a dying breed) takes it seriously.
4. The vast majority of Chinese citizens would fight against any kind of invasion or interference with PRC-Taiwan relations. A flawed government is still better than an invading, an attacking one, or a meddling one.
On a personal note, comparing the civil war that occured in China with the one in the U.S. is irresponsible. There are absolutly no parallels between the two. In the United States, the rich aristocracy lead the rebellion and the others in the Confederacy joined out of pure regionalism.
The rebellion in China happened because the poor rose up against the aristocracy because they had been wronged too much for too long. It was a large coalition of parties that actually rebelled. The Communist party was the biggest and it happened to be lead by corrupt people. After the revolution succeeded, Communist leaders took over other parties by persuasion, bribery, or more devious methods. There was a clear "good guy" in the U.S. conflict. There were just too really big bad guys in the Chinese ones. The good guys sided with the lesser of the two evils and were subsequently wiped out.
The current Chinese administration is not as extreme as the one of old. Things are changing for the better, although not fast enough. But please don't just lump every Chinese leader in the same catergory. Hu Jin Tao is not Deng Xiao Ping and he is sure as hell not Mao Ze Dong.
1. The Nationalist party was overthrown because they did not have the support of the people. They lost power because they abused it with their own extreme corruption.
2. The Communist party started with knives and pamphlets. The garnered the peoples' support mainly because the KMD was so oppressive in the first place.
3. The Communist party is bad. There are no two ways about it. They have come to represent everything that the Nationalists were hated for. I know what corruption is all about. I have heard talk about people getting favors because they know people I know. This kind of corruption is rampant and EVERYONE in urban China (I cannot speak for rural) knows about it. Communist BS is all over the place, but no one other than old converts (literally a dying breed) takes it seriously.
4. The vast majority of Chinese citizens would fight against any kind of invasion or interference with PRC-Taiwan relations. A flawed government is still better than an invading, an attacking one, or a meddling one.
On a personal note, comparing the civil war that occured in China with the one in the U.S. is irresponsible. There are absolutly no parallels between the two. In the United States, the rich aristocracy lead the rebellion and the others in the Confederacy joined out of pure regionalism.
The rebellion in China happened because the poor rose up against the aristocracy because they had been wronged too much for too long. It was a large coalition of parties that actually rebelled. The Communist party was the biggest and it happened to be lead by corrupt people. After the revolution succeeded, Communist leaders took over other parties by persuasion, bribery, or more devious methods. There was a clear "good guy" in the U.S. conflict. There were just too really big bad guys in the Chinese ones. The good guys sided with the lesser of the two evils and were subsequently wiped out.
The current Chinese administration is not as extreme as the one of old. Things are changing for the better, although not fast enough. But please don't just lump every Chinese leader in the same catergory. Hu Jin Tao is not Deng Xiao Ping and he is sure as hell not Mao Ze Dong.
OrganizedChaos
Diamond Member
- Apr 21, 2002
- 4,524
- 0
- 0
I agree with almost all the thing you say, but the american revolution(aka civil war) had parallels. The south was the poorer region. The North was wealthier, more industrialized. Both sides were fighting for their right to continue their way of life. Though we now look down on slavery, slavery was widely practiced since the conception of civilization and to define it evil or good is a very subjective statement. I dont think you understand but during the Civil War, the Northern Senators tried to instate many policies that were aimed directly to harm the south and vice versa. Both sides were trying to preserve thier way of life with no compromise in sight except for the few times Clay was able ot very temporarily mend the rift.
What other way to garner the support of the lower-class and peasantry than promise them "land, peace, and bread"? If only they had known....
Originally posted by: FreshPrince
stop shooting your own people!
how do you expect the world to respect you if you keep showing the world that you're capable of doing anything to your own people.
summary:
chinese government = sux :thumbsdown:
China led by Taiwan = good :thumbsup:
sad thing is that the rest of the chinese people are so brain washed by their own government that they don't see any wrong in this
Yup
Originally posted by: FreshPrince
stop shooting your own people!
how do you expect the world to respect you if you keep showing the world that you're capable of doing anything to your own people.
summary:
chinese government = sux :thumbsdown:
China led by Taiwan = good :thumbsup:
sad thing is that the rest of the chinese people are so brain washed by their own government that they don't see any wrong in this
i agree with everything except your inane 'China led by Taiwan' comment
Schadenfroh
Elite Member
- Mar 8, 2003
- 38,416
- 4
- 0
Chunkee
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2002
- 10,391
- 1
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1. P&N
2. I'm chinese, naturalized US citizen and though China has it's problems it's really overblown by those in america that just seem to hate us chinese because imho many americans are brainwashed by the sensationalized stories. It's just like how most of the rest of the world hates us fro the tourture scandal and invasion and in general just trying to stir up more problems with this whole axis of evil thing. Goverment preference is in the eye of the beholder. When i lived in china, and some of my family still do, the goverment really wasnt all that opressing at all. I mean, none of that crap happens to 99% of the people.
3. The actions of 1 man cannot determine the strength and decency of 1 goverment, otherwise we would be guilty as charged with Michael Brown FEMA mishap and the possible unhonest appointment of him to such a high position, a man whose last job ended up being fired as a show camel judge and who had no exprience in emergency services basically let all those people die. This is the same situation. A PLA captain shot some guys, the federal goveremnt detainesd him. Someone ****** up and the Chinese goverment did something responsible by arresting the man that did wrong, to be probably court marshalled. Tell me you dont think the chinese goverment ordered a guy to shoot civilians and then detained him. Obviously 1 stupid guy disobeyed orders.
4. Idiot. If yuo dont know what it's like besides some sensationalized news stories and anti chinese brainwashing, dont speak out.
5. Dont even get me get into the taiwan situation. It's a 50 year civil war. Our war. Get out of it. How would you like if if say back in the day the british suddenly sweeped through U.S. and then instated the confederate goverment? Get out of everyone else's business. We're not attacking U.N. Peacekeepers or commiting Genocide, we're just trying to conclude a 50 year civil war.
6. China has a relatively young govermant, a situation we had a had in shaping(with the whole asia coprosperity spheres of influence causing dissent and the overthrow of the emperors). All young goverments make mistakes. We quashed a lot of rebellions with military might in the first few decades after the Constitution was created. With the whole salvery thing, killing a bunch of people, destroying the indians, and recklessly causing friction with sapin(florida), France, Nritan, Mexico, the lsit goes on. We look good now, seeing as our goverment is in it's prime/middle aged stage, but yuo have to rmemeber China's goverment is like a 10 year old with a gun. Old enough to cause some damage but not old enough to truly realize the consequences.
Interesting here how you state that you are an american citizen yet refer to China's struggle as "Our war" and for america to butt out.... if it is so great, why did you move and why are you now an american citizen?
jC
2. I'm chinese, naturalized US citizen and though China has it's problems it's really overblown by those in america that just seem to hate us chinese because imho many americans are brainwashed by the sensationalized stories. It's just like how most of the rest of the world hates us fro the tourture scandal and invasion and in general just trying to stir up more problems with this whole axis of evil thing. Goverment preference is in the eye of the beholder. When i lived in china, and some of my family still do, the goverment really wasnt all that opressing at all. I mean, none of that crap happens to 99% of the people.
3. The actions of 1 man cannot determine the strength and decency of 1 goverment, otherwise we would be guilty as charged with Michael Brown FEMA mishap and the possible unhonest appointment of him to such a high position, a man whose last job ended up being fired as a show camel judge and who had no exprience in emergency services basically let all those people die. This is the same situation. A PLA captain shot some guys, the federal goveremnt detainesd him. Someone ****** up and the Chinese goverment did something responsible by arresting the man that did wrong, to be probably court marshalled. Tell me you dont think the chinese goverment ordered a guy to shoot civilians and then detained him. Obviously 1 stupid guy disobeyed orders.
4. Idiot. If yuo dont know what it's like besides some sensationalized news stories and anti chinese brainwashing, dont speak out.
5. Dont even get me get into the taiwan situation. It's a 50 year civil war. Our war. Get out of it. How would you like if if say back in the day the british suddenly sweeped through U.S. and then instated the confederate goverment? Get out of everyone else's business. We're not attacking U.N. Peacekeepers or commiting Genocide, we're just trying to conclude a 50 year civil war.
6. China has a relatively young govermant, a situation we had a had in shaping(with the whole asia coprosperity spheres of influence causing dissent and the overthrow of the emperors). All young goverments make mistakes. We quashed a lot of rebellions with military might in the first few decades after the Constitution was created. With the whole salvery thing, killing a bunch of people, destroying the indians, and recklessly causing friction with sapin(florida), France, Nritan, Mexico, the lsit goes on. We look good now, seeing as our goverment is in it's prime/middle aged stage, but yuo have to rmemeber China's goverment is like a 10 year old with a gun. Old enough to cause some damage but not old enough to truly realize the consequences.
Interesting here how you state that you are an american citizen yet refer to China's struggle as "Our war" and for america to butt out.... if it is so great, why did you move and why are you now an american citizen?
jC
The OP and mwmorph are arguing over Taiwanese rul or China.
OP - Chang Kai Shek had his chance. Get over it. The only nation Taiwan should rule is Taiwan. It sucks that China is corrupt and blah, blah, blah... but do you really think Taiwan would do any better. I mean Taiwan was pretty corrupt at the beginning of its development. My parents families were quite influencial there (they owned a lot of land near Taipei, grandfathers were a highly respected business owners (both sides), and one was a journalist as well), but because of political unrest most of all my extended family, sold all their property and moved to the States 30-35 years ago. Even with that, my extended family on my dad's side is still active in the Taiwanese Chamber of Commerce, and much of my dad's side of the family rebuilt businesses in the States through hard work. Don't think that Taiwan was above reproach though, they are just more progressive than China because of their political structure.
mwmorph - The only people who really that think that Taiwan is still a part of China are the Chinese "taught" to believe this. The U.N. doens't recognize it because of political/military pressure. To say that it is a 50 year Civil War is quite ignorant IMO. Most Taiwanese people just want to be left alone by China, and not have ballistic missiles flying over their island, and China threatening to take drastic military action if Taiwan tries to claim independence, which they already have in the first place. Any economic development in Taiwan, which is really the only thing that China wants, was not done by China, it was done when Taiwan was independent of China. Give it a rest.
PLEASE PLEASE stop bickering over something that is obviously not going to change on either side of the issue.
OP - Chang Kai Shek had his chance. Get over it. The only nation Taiwan should rule is Taiwan. It sucks that China is corrupt and blah, blah, blah... but do you really think Taiwan would do any better. I mean Taiwan was pretty corrupt at the beginning of its development. My parents families were quite influencial there (they owned a lot of land near Taipei, grandfathers were a highly respected business owners (both sides), and one was a journalist as well), but because of political unrest most of all my extended family, sold all their property and moved to the States 30-35 years ago. Even with that, my extended family on my dad's side is still active in the Taiwanese Chamber of Commerce, and much of my dad's side of the family rebuilt businesses in the States through hard work. Don't think that Taiwan was above reproach though, they are just more progressive than China because of their political structure.
mwmorph - The only people who really that think that Taiwan is still a part of China are the Chinese "taught" to believe this. The U.N. doens't recognize it because of political/military pressure. To say that it is a 50 year Civil War is quite ignorant IMO. Most Taiwanese people just want to be left alone by China, and not have ballistic missiles flying over their island, and China threatening to take drastic military action if Taiwan tries to claim independence, which they already have in the first place. Any economic development in Taiwan, which is really the only thing that China wants, was not done by China, it was done when Taiwan was independent of China. Give it a rest.
PLEASE PLEASE stop bickering over something that is obviously not going to change on either side of the issue.
Originally posted by: GeneValgene
Originally posted by: FreshPrince
stop shooting your own people!
how do you expect the world to respect you if you keep showing the world that you're capable of doing anything to your own people.
summary:
chinese government = sux :thumbsdown:
China led by Taiwan = good :thumbsup:
sad thing is that the rest of the chinese people are so brain washed by their own government that they don't see any wrong in this
i agree with everything except your inane 'China led by Taiwan' comment
Yup
Schadenfroh
Elite Member
- Mar 8, 2003
- 38,416
- 4
- 0
Skunkwourk
Diamond Member
- Dec 9, 2004
- 4,662
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Originally posted by: GeneValgene
Originally posted by: FreshPrince
stop shooting your own people!
how do you expect the world to respect you if you keep showing the world that you're capable of doing anything to your own people.
summary:
chinese government = sux :thumbsdown:
China led by Taiwan = good :thumbsup:
sad thing is that the rest of the chinese people are so brain washed by their own government that they don't see any wrong in this
i agree with everything except your inane 'China led by Taiwan' comment
Sorry, China led by Taiwan sounds like a horribly stupid idea but I agree, the Chinese govt sucks. Its too bad the rest of the world is kissing China's ass anyway for the sake of economics.
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