When will Israel take off the gloves??

[IamDavid]

Five homicide bombings in three days is a bit much for any nation to put up with yet Israel keeps taking it again and again. At what point will they put an end to it by lashing out against the countries around them thats supporting these killers? Israel has the military force to take on anyone in the region and everyone knows the US will back them under just about any situation. Maybe if they thump Syria's head, or anyones else's, the rest of the region will take notice and put an end to the madness. Peace thru power works and unfortunately is the last option available.

I know, I know, Israel isn't a saint in al this but enough should be enough. Maybe after they whoop some ass the Israeli people will elect a true leader instead of an idiot like Sharon.

 

[dnoyeb]

Take off? I wasn't aware of any gloves the Israelis have been employing. If your keeping count, their are far more dead palestinians. Should Palestine "take off the gloves?"

They both need to sit down at the table and get on with the road map. Reacting to terrorism from either side is giving control to the extremist.

Peace through power works? nobody has weilded more "Power" than Sharon. I don't see any peace forthcoming. Peace through power can only work when you kill all of the enemy. If their is 1 left, he will hunt you down and bring death to your doorstep. I know I would, wouldn't you? Or would you yourself give up? Did 9/11 bring the terrorists any peace?

 

[Alistar7]

maybe they plan on retaliating after they leave the areas they have illegaly annexed and occupied....

The US does not blindly support them, and the current administration's stance on the issue has made it very clear they way they view Israeli aggressions.

 

[IamDavid]

I agree with both of you somewhat. Israel has " illegally annexed " land and they should return it, period.. And yes Sharon has used allot of "power". He has just used it in the wrong places. There will forever be mindless youths to carryout suicide bombings. There is however a finite number of extremist leaders living in other places sending money and materials to keep the problem going. Israel and the US know were the "leaders' of Hamas and Hezbola are and neither are in Israel. In any battle or any conflict everyone knows if you take out the leaders the rest will fall. The US did not just go after terrorist "cells" throughout the US, we went to where the leaders lived.

 

[Zrom999]

If the Israelis weren't fighting with the Palestinians they would be fighting among themselves. Anytime there are internal problems (foreign workers wanting better pay, socialist groups acting up, etc.) they go and bulldoze someones house, tick off the terrorist, they retaliate, and the domestic issues take a back burner.

 

[petrek]

Didn't Israel attain those pieces of land during recent wars?

 

[konichiwa]

Israel has been fighting bare-fisted for almost fifty years now. Get a grip.

 

[tweakmm]

Originally posted by: IamDavid
There will forever be mindless youths to carryout suicide bombings. There is however a finite number of extremist leaders living in other places sending money and materials to keep the problem going

What makes you think the leadership isn't in infinite supply also? History has shown that as long as people feel oppressed, there will be somebody to rise from a group to lead said group, plus it doesn't take much planning to strap a bomb to your chest and walk to the nearest marketplace.
Violence perpetuates violence, it's really as simple as that. It just gets more complicated when non-action causes violence too. That, my friend, is why we will wipe ourselves out in the next 150 years.

 

[etech]

Unless all of the Jews decide to leave the Middle East completely it really doesn't matter to some groups. Their goal is the complete and utter destruction of the State of Israel.

Analysis: Why the attacks continue

"These attacks will continue in all the territories of 1948 and 1967, and we will not stop attacking the Zionist Jewish people as long as any of them remain in our land."
The words come from a statement issued on Monday morning by the armed wing of the militant group Hamas

...

During the Israeli raid, Hamas militants have continued to launch rockets, and have issued defiant statements describing their actions.

Not only do they reject the route which the roadmap proposes to take, they do not even see the kind of Palestinian state it is supposed to lead to as a desirable final destination.
"

 

[BarneyFife]

They can take off the gloves but the result will be the same. Suicide bombings will never stop and Jews and Arabs will always hate each other. No plans or proposals will ever do anything. Just let them kill each other.

 

[przero]

what Israel needs to do is rent all the tanks and planes for 6 days again and .......

 

[no0b]

When the US will let them.

And when is that when we realize that the Palestinians are never going to end the violence.

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: konichiwa
Israel has been fighting bare-fisted for almost fifty years now. Get a grip.

I can't believe anybody actually believes that. Israel has done some horrible things, but if they let loose, it would be much, much worse. There's definitely at least some level of restraint in their actions.

 

[GoingUp]

Its gotta be tough to work for piece when people are blowing themselves up on buses in the names of Allah.

I guess if I was Sharon, I would try this:

Let the Palestinians have total freedom of movement etc. That way they can get around, get to work etc. This is contingent on no suicide attacks. The first time a bomb went of, I'd lock them down so tight it would make their heads spin.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: Zrom999
If the Israelis weren't fighting with the Palestinians they would be fighting among themselves. Anytime there are internal problems (foreign workers wanting better pay, socialist groups acting up, etc.) they go and bulldoze someones house, tick off the terrorist, they retaliate, and the domestic issues take a back burner.

What the hell are you talking about? Are you saying that only Israel suffers from internal problems? These problems that you described sounds like politics as usual. EVERY country, if faced with homicidal terrorists would let these "internal problems" take a backseat to ending homicidal attacks. Look at the US in the wake of 9/11.

BTW, bulldozing houses comes after a terrorist attack, not before. Are you claiming that Israel purposely creates terrorist attacks, which kill innocent civilians in order to squash internal political bickering? You seriously have a twisted view of reality. May I ask where you received such a first-rate education?

 

[Conky]

I don't know why Israel has shown such restraint. They have the means to get very radical on anybody they want to and yet they try to keep things as low key as possible.

Bulldozing the houses of suicide bombers is nothing. If I was Sharon I would kill the suicide bomber's entire family to make the point made that terrorism must end. It wouldn't be so easy to be a suicide bomber if you knew your whole family would die because of your actions. Harsh and ugly solution but the reality of suicide bombers is equally gruesome.

 

[konichiwa]

Originally posted by: DBL

BTW, bulldozing houses comes after a terrorist attack, not before. Are you claiming that Israel purposely creates terrorist attacks, which kill innocent civilians in order to squash internal political bickering? You seriously have a twisted view of reality. May I ask where you received such a first-rate education?

Israel has put themselves in the place of judge, jury and executioner. Innocent peoples' houses and livelihoods are being destroyed so long as they live in the same area as an alleged terrorist camp, or have some alleged connection to Hamas. There is no due process, there is no trial or courtroom. Not to mention the city-wide lockdowns, curfews and plethora of checkpoints enforced on thousands of innocent people.

Yes there are Palestinians who wish to destroy Israel, but to suggest that Israel has been fighting restraintedly is idiotic.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: DBL

BTW, bulldozing houses comes after a terrorist attack, not before. Are you claiming that Israel purposely creates terrorist attacks, which kill innocent civilians in order to squash internal political bickering? You seriously have a twisted view of reality. May I ask where you received such a first-rate education?

Israel has put themselves in the place of judge, jury and executioner. Innocent peoples' houses and livelihoods are being destroyed so long as they live in the same area as an alleged terrorist camp, or have some alleged connection to Hamas. There is no due process, there is no trial or courtroom. Not to mention the city-wide lockdowns, curfews and plethora of checkpoints enforced on thousands of innocent people.

Yes there are Palestinians who wish to destroy Israel, but to suggest that Israel has been fighting restraintedly is idiotic.

No it's not. Israel has the same weapons and means of delivering those weapons that the US used in Afghanistan and Iraq. If Israel "took off the gloves", they could run all Palestinians out of the West bank and Gaza in 24 hours. They don't do this because Israel understands the difference between right and wrong, something the majority of Palestinians do not.

As for being "judge, jury and executioner"... What do you expect a country to do to protect itself? How would you go about arresting and prosecuting terrorists residing in a place where murder is celebrated and laws a figment of the imagination? Israel rightfully feels that it is at war with Terrorists and therefore is entitled to self-defense, which enables them to become the judge, jury and executioner. Pretty simple really. As much as some people like to deny it, every other country would do the exact same thing to protect its citizens when faced with a problem such as this. Look at our response in Afghanistan. Look at Indonesia's response today against separatist rebels. Look at Sri Lanka recently. The list goes on.

You also fail to realize the responsibility of Palestinians to look after their own well-being. The society must learn not to support Hamas and other terrorist organizations. They must weed out and arrest the individual terrorists who reside in their homes. Doing so will help to get the peace process in motion as well as eliminate the possibility that their home is the next one razed in response to their neighbors homicidal binge. Would you let a drug dealer knowingly operate in your apartment? How about a serial killer? In my mind, blame for the current situation rests ALMOST exclusively with the Palestinians. They need a drastic cultural awakening if peace is to be a realistic goal.

 

[Zrom999]

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: Zrom999
If the Israelis weren't fighting with the Palestinians they would be fighting among themselves. Anytime there are internal problems (foreign workers wanting better pay, socialist groups acting up, etc.) they go and bulldoze someones house, tick off the terrorist, they retaliate, and the domestic issues take a back burner.

What the hell are you talking about? Are you saying that only Israel suffers from internal problems? These problems that you described sounds like politics as usual. EVERY country, if faced with homicidal terrorists would let these "internal problems" take a backseat to ending homicidal attacks. Look at the US in the wake of 9/11.

BTW, bulldozing houses comes after a terrorist attack, not before. Are you claiming that Israel purposely creates terrorist attacks, which kill innocent civilians in order to squash internal political bickering? You seriously have a twisted view of reality. May I ask where you received such a first-rate education?

Yes I do claim Israel provokes terrorist attacks to squash internal bickering. The cite building code bs, bulldoze someone's house and then some loser blows himself up not too long later.

Israel also continues to bulldoze Palestinian homes when those homes lack construction permits, which Israel never gives them, according to the Palestinian Committee on Land and the Environment. Israel, the committee says, has demolished 700 homes since 1993.

SOURCE

As long as there is a common enemy, political opposition groups, and troublemakers will keep quiet as long as the gov't claims to be trying to stop the attacks. Any opposition to that gov't would then be seen as impeding the prevention of terrorism and the opposition groups would lose face.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: Zrom999

Originally posted by: DBL



What the hell are you talking about? Are you saying that only Israel suffers from internal problems? These problems that you described sounds like politics as usual. EVERY country, if faced with homicidal terrorists would let these "internal problems" take a backseat to ending homicidal attacks. Look at the US in the wake of 9/11.

BTW, bulldozing houses comes after a terrorist attack, not before. Are you claiming that Israel purposely creates terrorist attacks, which kill innocent civilians in order to squash internal political bickering? You seriously have a twisted view of reality. May I ask where you received such a first-rate education?

Yes I do claim Israel provokes terrorist attacks to squash internal bickering. The cite building code bs, bulldoze someone's house and then some loser blows himself up not too long later.

Israel also continues to bulldoze Palestinian homes when those homes lack construction permits, which Israel never gives them, according to the Palestinian Committee on Land and the Environment. Israel, the committee says, has demolished 700 homes since 1993.

SOURCE

As long as there is a common enemy, political opposition groups, and troublemakers will keep quiet as long as the gov't claims to be trying to stop the attacks. Any opposition to that gov't would then be seen as impeding the prevention of terrorism and the opposition groups would lose face.

Let me get this straight. You are claiming that Israeli politicians sacrifice the lives of their own citizens in order to draw attention away from internal issues. Riiiiight.... And I bet you believe the US government planned the 9/11 attacks to draw attention away from a troubled economy

.

Also, your reference to the "Palestinian Committee on Land and the Environment" is a curious one considering I can't even verify they exist at all. Could you provide a web page? something? Besides if Israel has demolished 700 homes, what percentage were the homes of terrorists? That information is conveniently left out. You seem to be using the same flawed argument as those who say "but, but more Palestinians have died than Israelis....". The real questions should examine who has killed more innocents and what percentage of those killed are innocents. Those statistics alone will tell you who the terrorists actually are.
An Engineered Tragedy

 

[Zrom999]

Originally posted by: DBL

Originally posted by: Zrom999

Originally posted by: DBL



What the hell are you talking about? Are you saying that only Israel suffers from internal problems? These problems that you described sounds like politics as usual. EVERY country, if faced with homicidal terrorists would let these "internal problems" take a backseat to ending homicidal attacks. Look at the US in the wake of 9/11.

BTW, bulldozing houses comes after a terrorist attack, not before. Are you claiming that Israel purposely creates terrorist attacks, which kill innocent civilians in order to squash internal political bickering? You seriously have a twisted view of reality. May I ask where you received such a first-rate education?

Yes I do claim Israel provokes terrorist attacks to squash internal bickering. The cite building code bs, bulldoze someone's house and then some loser blows himself up not too long later.

Israel also continues to bulldoze Palestinian homes when those homes lack construction permits, which Israel never gives them, according to the Palestinian Committee on Land and the Environment. Israel, the committee says, has demolished 700 homes since 1993.

SOURCE

As long as there is a common enemy, political opposition groups, and troublemakers will keep quiet as long as the gov't claims to be trying to stop the attacks. Any opposition to that gov't would then be seen as impeding the prevention of terrorism and the opposition groups would lose face.

Let me get this straight. You are claiming that Israeli politicians sacrifice the lives of their own citizens in order to draw attention away from internal issues. Riiiiight.... And I bet you believe the US government planned the 9/11 attacks to draw attention away from a troubled economy

.

Also, your reference to the "Palestinian Committee on Land and the Environment" is a curious one considering I can't even verify they exist at all. Could you provide a web page? something? Besides if Israel has demolished 700 homes, what percentage were the homes of terrorists? That information is conveniently left out. You seem to be using the same flawed argument as those who say "but, but more Palestinians have died than Israelis....". The real questions should examine who has killed more innocents and what percentage of those killed are innocents. Those statistics alone will tell you who the terrorists actually are.
An Engineered Tragedy

Another source:
CLICK HERE

I think Amnesty International is a more recognized Organization.

I don't care anymore about who killed more etc. I have no stake in this conflict. It has become like watching an ongoing sports game. I don't think US gov't planned the 9/11 attacks either, so don't even try to pull that bs. I do not support terrorism, I hate it probably even more than you do.

I am also not referring to the homes of terrorist, but rather the ones the Israeli government refuses to give permits to. If you didnt have your head up your arse you would have seen that by now. If the Israeli gov't is really demolishing 'illegal' homes they can finish it in one big sweep, but their policy of knocking the homes over in this gradual manner shows that there is something else behind it (such as provocation). They ignore these violations until they want to provoke a response and bulldoze a few houses and save some for next time. As for you, it seems that evey Palestinian is a terrorist and you don't give a damn whether the house was knocked over before or after an attack, or whether the people living there were terrorist or not. As long as it was a Palestinian home its fine with you.

I made a logical conclusion to the actions of the Israeli gov't. If you don't like it, don't hate me, hate logic or hate yourself for not understanding.

 

[0roo0roo]

Take off? I wasn't aware of any gloves the Israelis have been employing. If your keeping count, their are far more dead palestinians. Should Palestine "take off the gloves?"

somehow i find the comparison between palestinian gunmen, rock throwers, bombers, molatov cocktail chuckers(who all get counted as palestinians) and israeli civilians buying pizza getting blown up a little pathetic. more people die under doctors care every year then to suicide bombers. doctors are just evil.

palestinians objective is to kill maximum civilians. israeli objective is to minimize cilivian casualities. if you disagree you are disingenuous. if israelis fought like palestinians, there would be NO MORE PALESTINIANS. i mean really, the palestinians don't live in sparcely populated areas. it would be a cr@p shoot.

 

[DBL]

Originally posted by: Zrom999



Another source:
CLICK HERE

I think Amnesty International is a more recognized Organization.

I don't care anymore about who killed more etc. I have no stake in this conflict. It has become like watching an ongoing sports game. I don't think US gov't planned the 9/11 attacks either, so don't even try to pull that bs. I do not support terrorism, I hate it probably even more than you do.

I am also not referring to the homes of terrorist, but rather the ones the Israeli government refuses to give permits to. If you didnt have your head up your arse you would have seen that by now. If the Israeli gov't is really demolishing 'illegal' homes they can finish it in one big sweep, but their policy of knocking the homes over in this gradual manner shows that there is something else behind it (such as provocation). They ignore these violations until they want to provoke a response and bulldoze a few houses and save some for next time. As for you, it seems that evey Palestinian is a terrorist and you don't give a damn whether the house was knocked over before or after an attack, or whether the people living there were terrorist or not. As long as it was a Palestinian home its fine with you.

I made a logical conclusion to the actions of the Israeli gov't. If you don't like it, don't hate me, hate logic or hate yourself for not understanding.

Wow, grasping at straws, huh? Your source is exposed as non-existent and then to remedy the obvious gaffe, you link to an Amnesty International report from 12/1999, almost a year before the current Palestinian uprising began. Are you asserting that Palestinian terrorists waited and plotted the current three-year campaign of murder and terror to exact revenge because Israel demolished some illegal Palestinian homes? I've never heard this theory before. In fact, I always thought the Palestinian position was that the Intafada began when Sharon visited the Temple Mount.

But let's let this be for a moment and attack this from a more recent angle. In the last week or so, there have been no less than five homicide attacks. Were these attacks the direct result of Israel demolishing their homes, homes of their relatives or friends? Since that is your contention, please refer me to evidence that this is the case. Were the two British nationals recruited to commit murder motivated by demolition of their homes in Britain?

Putting that aside, I would like to address your accusation that I think all Palestinians are terrorists. I never said that nor do I believe it. However, I do believe Palestinian culture has been perverted by the likes of Hamas and other terror organizations. Various studies show that a majority of the Palestinian population supports and celebrates homicide bombings. As such, the Palestinian population bears an overwhelming amount of responsibility for their current situation. It's not much different than German citizens sharing guilt and responsibility for the Holocaust. A Culture must understand were they have gone wrong and help themselves to correct their current state of affairs before they can blame anyone else.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: DBL

BTW, bulldozing houses comes after a terrorist attack, not before. Are you claiming that Israel purposely creates terrorist attacks, which kill innocent civilians in order to squash internal political bickering? You seriously have a twisted view of reality. May I ask where you received such a first-rate education?

Israel has put themselves in the place of judge, jury and executioner. Innocent peoples' houses and livelihoods are being destroyed so long as they live in the same area as an alleged terrorist camp, or have some alleged connection to Hamas. There is no due process, there is no trial or courtroom. Not to mention the city-wide lockdowns, curfews and plethora of checkpoints enforced on thousands of innocent people.

Yes there are Palestinians who wish to destroy Israel, but to suggest that Israel has been fighting restraintedly is idiotic.

Let's take an amoral stance for a moment. Power X has many many times more firepower than Power Y. Now a conflict occurs which lasts many years. Power X does not use it's full capability to destroy Power Y. Not using it ability is by definition restraint. Now why this happens is open for debate, but then we get in to the moral issue. Israel COULD entirely eliminate the Palestinians in short order, with less effort than the US expended in Iraq by virtue of it's proximity. That Israel has shown restraint is not really arguable, but the motives behind that, ahh.. that is where intrigue lies.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: DBL

BTW, bulldozing houses comes after a terrorist attack, not before. Are you claiming that Israel purposely creates terrorist attacks, which kill innocent civilians in order to squash internal political bickering? You seriously have a twisted view of reality. May I ask where you received such a first-rate education?

Israel has put themselves in the place of judge, jury and executioner. Innocent peoples' houses and livelihoods are being destroyed so long as they live in the same area as an alleged terrorist camp, or have some alleged connection to Hamas. There is no due process, there is no trial or courtroom. Not to mention the city-wide lockdowns, curfews and plethora of checkpoints enforced on thousands of innocent people.

Yes there are Palestinians who wish to destroy Israel, but to suggest that Israel has been fighting restraintedly is idiotic.

Let's take an amoral stance for a moment. Power X has many many times more firepower than Power Y. Now a conflict occurs which lasts many years. Power X does not use it's full capability to destroy Power Y. Not using it ability is by definition restraint. Now why this happens is open for debate, but then we get in to the moral issue. Israel COULD entirely eliminate the Palestinians in short order, with less effort than the US expended in Iraq by virtue of it's proximity. That Israel has shown restraint is not really arguable, but the motives behind that, ahh.. that is where intrigue lies.

perhaps the thought of genocide based on racial or relgious grounds strikes them at a level you can't understand.

If they did attack like that, they understand the world would come to the aid of the Palestinians, the US right at the front I would hope, maybe it is the US holding them back.