Ok teammates you win. Based on Insidious's idea that I find something else. I have quit both TA and the F@H project. Spot #108 is now available. Maybe others will learn not to ever question F@H in the future and just leave the project w/o wasting your valuable time. Nice job guys.
I'm glad you've found a project that's finding cures for emerging diseases every other day so you won't get bored. We wouldn't want you to stick around here and be unhappy. Maybe others will learn from this that it's fine to ask questions as long as one actually asks questions instead of making blanket statements of "facts" and assumptions while insulting and putting down everyone else for not agreeing with them.
petrusbroder
Elite Member
- Nov 28, 2004
- 13,343
- 1,138
- 126
Well, I can certainly understand frustration with a project ... especially if one does not see real world results (I do not know what that term real world result means, but I can guess that that implies a result which is usable in, for example, health care or treatment of a disease).
I have done research in neuroscience 1982 - 1992. My first "non-real-world"-results were published in 1984. Those and the results published some papers in 1985 and 1986 (which I do not think are that ground breaking) are now contributing (in a small way) to the development of new treatment: I produced evidence that a mouse model of how some very basic processes in the brain function was applicable in human nervous system.
The results of some "real-world-applicable" ideas are coming in now (in 2004-2005), that is 20 years later.
The results of the team I worked with had by far fewer permutations than those of F@H. Considering that a change in one amino acid in a protein can induce a totally different folding - combine that with the frequency of changes in the genome (I do not talk of mutations only, but about the much more common sexual reproduction where the genomes of two independent individuals are combined), then the number of possible permutations is staggering.
So, do not despair. Nature is so wonderful and has som many possibilities that quite a few years of intense computation can not produce so much "real world" results unless chance helps.
The brute force approach that F@H and Prediction@Home and other projects use are important not only because the possible "real-world-results" they can yield, but mainly because all the negative results that are generated and that do not need to be further investigated. And that is a time saver, believe me, a very "real-world-result".
I hope that no one will give up doing a project such as F@H or P@H because of this thread, that would be a loss!
hopes
petrusbroder, MD, PhD (neuropharmacology)
I have done research in neuroscience 1982 - 1992. My first "non-real-world"-results were published in 1984. Those and the results published some papers in 1985 and 1986 (which I do not think are that ground breaking) are now contributing (in a small way) to the development of new treatment: I produced evidence that a mouse model of how some very basic processes in the brain function was applicable in human nervous system.
The results of some "real-world-applicable" ideas are coming in now (in 2004-2005), that is 20 years later.
The results of the team I worked with had by far fewer permutations than those of F@H. Considering that a change in one amino acid in a protein can induce a totally different folding - combine that with the frequency of changes in the genome (I do not talk of mutations only, but about the much more common sexual reproduction where the genomes of two independent individuals are combined), then the number of possible permutations is staggering.
So, do not despair. Nature is so wonderful and has som many possibilities that quite a few years of intense computation can not produce so much "real world" results unless chance helps.
The brute force approach that F@H and Prediction@Home and other projects use are important not only because the possible "real-world-results" they can yield, but mainly because all the negative results that are generated and that do not need to be further investigated. And that is a time saver, believe me, a very "real-world-result".
I hope that no one will give up doing a project such as F@H or P@H because of this thread, that would be a loss!
hopes
petrusbroder, MD, PhD (neuropharmacology)
Assimilator1
Elite Member
- Nov 4, 1999
- 24,120
- 507
- 126
Interesting ,thanks 
Hear hear
flyted
You still don't get it do you?
We don't particularly want people leaving TA ,but that doesn't mean we'll allow individuals to be rude & arrogant & say nothing just in case they throw a strop & leave the team.
Hear hear
flyted
You still don't get it do you?
We don't particularly want people leaving TA ,but that doesn't mean we'll allow individuals to be rude & arrogant & say nothing just in case they throw a strop & leave the team.
Thank you, Petrusbroder, that was very enlightening (and yes, you correctly assumed the meaning of "real world result").
Insidious
Diamond Member
- Oct 25, 2001
- 7,649
- 0
- 0
Petrusbroder, that is a cool post. I didn't know we had anyone here with this kind of experience.... very cool indeed :beer: :thumbsup: :beer:
-Sid
PS: I hope I haven't put off too many innocent bystanders. But sometimes it is best to go ahead and let a poster know my "real world" thoughts.
-Sid
PS: I hope I haven't put off too many innocent bystanders. But sometimes it is best to go ahead and let a poster know my "real world" thoughts.
JetBlack69
Diamond Member
- Sep 16, 2001
- 4,580
- 1
- 0
am I an innocent bystander? if so you didn't put me off.Originally posted by: Insidious
Petrusbroder, that is a cool post. I didn't know we had anyone here with this kind of experience.... very cool indeed :beer: :thumbsup: :beer:
-Sid
PS: I hope I haven't put off too many innocent bystanders. But sometimes it is best to go ahead and let a poster know my "real world" thoughts.
What's obvious is that Sid, Ass1 and Provia are exactly what hurts a projects future. By not being able to discuss anything other than what they choose to believe, they alienate others. My guess is that I'm not the only one to leave the program in disgust. At least I started a discussion before I left and the response was that of the non-educated type who can see no other possibilities other than what they already believe. Sad really. Sid, why don't you volunteer to do pr for F@H? That way by the end of the year there will be no members.
{PS: I hope I haven't put off too many innocent bystanders. But sometimes it is best to go ahead and let a poster know my "real world" thoughtsmbers.}
Your statement was without a doubt the most ignorant I've ever seen on this board. I wish F@H well, but an improvement over members like you.
{PS: I hope I haven't put off too many innocent bystanders. But sometimes it is best to go ahead and let a poster know my "real world" thoughtsmbers.}
Your statement was without a doubt the most ignorant I've ever seen on this board. I wish F@H well, but an improvement over members like you.
So we supposedly "hurt F@H future" by pointing out that "real world" results take longer to achieve than you seem to think (including an excellent post by Petrusbroder)? The only people we might alienate are those with an attitude or a "chip on their shoulder." If you had approached the questions in a different manner and not made up your mind beforehand concerning what you would and wouldn't believe, you might have been surprised with a very different outcome. However, if - as it appears - you put out the bait, don't act innocent when you get this kind of response.
Although they defintely don't need anyone to defend them, I know for a fact that Insidious, Assimilator1 and Provia Fan have each done more for their respective projects(and for Team Anandtech) then you have, AND without managing to tick off other TA members(such as myself) with smug and arrogant opinions in the process.
You mentioned something about leaving.. when exactly were you going to get around to doing that exactly? :disgust:
Did you even read the original post? Where do you get this bait idea from? You are making no sense at all. I've made 49 posts compared to the thousands by others here. I got no extra time to spend "baiting" questions sitting at a computer all day. The more I go back through this thread I see that 340 have looked at it and sid, ass1 and you have have banded together, and petrusbroder made an intelligent factual reply. Still not an answer as I guess at least you 3 will never be willing to look at any other angle of this project other than the one you see now. If its a valid concern, it makes zero difference whether you like someone or not, or their approach, some may not like your approach either, but would be short-sighted if they dismissed an idea you had just because they disliked either. I bet many share my concerns, just didn't comment. But clearly you 3 guys response does nothing to help the project.
Networkman-
How do you know what I've done for the project and other DC projects? My issue was clearly stated in the original post and has turned into an issue with 3 others. You've posted over 8,000 times, my question to you since you launched a personal attack on me is....after 8,000 posts when will you actually say something important enough that someone wants to listen to? Do you have any life other than making post? With all that spare time, is it to much for you to do some basic research so you can talk intelligently on the issue? I guess so. See its not that difficult to lower my IQ to respond to your nonsense reply.
How do you know what I've done for the project and other DC projects? My issue was clearly stated in the original post and has turned into an issue with 3 others. You've posted over 8,000 times, my question to you since you launched a personal attack on me is....after 8,000 posts when will you actually say something important enough that someone wants to listen to? Do you have any life other than making post? With all that spare time, is it to much for you to do some basic research so you can talk intelligently on the issue? I guess so. See its not that difficult to lower my IQ to respond to your nonsense reply.
Wolfsraider
Diamond Member
- Jan 27, 2002
- 8,305
- 0
- 76
Yes, and its close minded and unsupported here.
Why not? Could it be that "only" a "cure" will satisfy your question? Or can research and the way its performed be considered a "discovery"? Every time something new is tried, knowledge is gained, even if it doesn't work. What it does do is narrow the field.
I doubt there are as many as you think, some...maybe, but I bet they aren't as closed minded about it.
Here I disagree with you. While your post shares your "opinion" it does nothing to further the project, their posts are similar to yours as they are sharing their viewpoints like you did, but (and it seems thats not allowed by you, even though its "okay" for you) They are not saying this project is futile, that people are wasting their time, and that only a cure can provide gratification, Nor are they implying that "While the work the scientists and doctors etc... are providing intresting facts, they can't actually be learning anything, since there isn't anything to show for their time.
You don't want "hostile" retorts yet you throw them out like a spoiled child. You could argue your side in an adultt fashion, but even when presented with information you asked about, its not good enough...Please share what it would take then (in your opinion) what is reasonable? Also please include your experience with the medical field, programming field etc... that gives you more insight/knowledge than say petrusbroder?
papers are important to the development of cures.
many are shared among the scientific community so that others have the same knowledge, more people focusing on the outcome of the tests can offer a better chance that fewer mistakes are made, that theory is accurate, and that less time is wasted trying the same experiments.
take these for example:
===================================================
From the front page of the project, in case it matters.
are they "worthless" to you?
They might well be, but they offer insight to those that are working on the cures. Insighrt they wouldn't have without these findings. Insight that may save minutes, hours, even days , weeks or months on finding solutions.
These papers are vital to you getting your "Real world results".
No one here has a crystal ball, to know the date and time those results (like the ones you are looking for) will be here.
What I find amazing is that it seems that you would prefer that they just stopped the research rather than "waste" everyones time.
I for one am glad that they are on the job, doing the research, trying to find answers, rather than telling those that have cancer, Alzheimer's, Mad Cow (BSE), CJD, ALS, Huntington's, Parkinson's disease, Look its not worth the effort, We tried but we gave up, you just aren't worth the effort, we have decided that we can make more money selling drugs that don't cure the disease but rather prolong it.
Of course you can also disagree with my opinions, its allowed, but when it affects you personally or someone you love, I am betting you would be glad that they are trying.If it already affects you and your mad there isn't a cure yet, yeah that can hurt, but just because it isnt here for you it shouldn't be here for those to come after you?
I wish you luck, whether you stay on the team or not.
Mike
How ignorant can you be? :roll:
There's this wonderful Search function available - you can search for every post I've ever made if you so desire. But then you'd know that already if you had such a high IQ to begin with.
I'm still wondering when you're going to leave.
There's this wonderful Search function available - you can search for every post I've ever made if you so desire. But then you'd know that already if you had such a high IQ to begin with.
I'm still wondering when you're going to leave.
petrusbroder
Elite Member
- Nov 28, 2004
- 13,343
- 1,138
- 126
The interesting points, flyted, are the following:
1. Could you accept that negative results (that is results of computations or experiments, that exclude possible proteins and/or make further research unnecessary) are real world results and thus of value to the projects and their researchers (e.g. by saving time)?
2. Could you accept that the researchers have no ill intent and that they are trying to obtain knowledge which - some time in the future - may contribute to research which will result in medication or in knowledge how some diseases work (=pathogenesis), which is really the basis of treatment?
3. Do you believe tha distributed computing contributes to science (in this case F@H) in some way - albeit now not quite in a comprehendible way and thus helps the scientists responsible for the projects?
If your ansver to all the questions above is no, then I certainly can understand your reluctancy to continue F@H.
If one of the questions is answered with an yes, then no one should hinder you from continueing crunching.
I can certainly - for my own part and for those projects which I participate in - answer all of those questions with a "yes" and therefore I continue ...
Then there is an other point:
Most of the people which participate "donate" their unused CPU-cycles - that is they work using their computers for other purposes and the DC-client calculates between key taps, in the mini-breaks (e.g. while you think about how to write a sentence or what number to put into the spreadsheet) etc. It would be nonsense and technically very difficult to slow down or shut down the computer for those pauses which are a second or perhaps 20 seconds short (or long - from DC-point of view). That is the main contribution - and the cost is minimal or even zero.
For those of us, who crunch more and who use old or even new computers, it is a hobby, for some an obscession, for others a more or less important social interaction with other people interested in similar matters. And that is our choice.
I - for one and Wolfsraider for an other and quite a few more people - will defend your right to be of a different opinion, to publish it and also to express yourself in a way that others find offensive or aggressive, but you will have to accept the consequences of such writing.
What saddens me, is the fact that the issue - if and how distibuted computing is of benefit to science in the F@H-project and further along to fellow man - has been clouded. It would have been an interesting ethical discussion, but has turned into a flame war.
1. Could you accept that negative results (that is results of computations or experiments, that exclude possible proteins and/or make further research unnecessary) are real world results and thus of value to the projects and their researchers (e.g. by saving time)?
2. Could you accept that the researchers have no ill intent and that they are trying to obtain knowledge which - some time in the future - may contribute to research which will result in medication or in knowledge how some diseases work (=pathogenesis), which is really the basis of treatment?
3. Do you believe tha distributed computing contributes to science (in this case F@H) in some way - albeit now not quite in a comprehendible way and thus helps the scientists responsible for the projects?
If your ansver to all the questions above is no, then I certainly can understand your reluctancy to continue F@H.
If one of the questions is answered with an yes, then no one should hinder you from continueing crunching.
I can certainly - for my own part and for those projects which I participate in - answer all of those questions with a "yes" and therefore I continue ...
Then there is an other point:
Most of the people which participate "donate" their unused CPU-cycles - that is they work using their computers for other purposes and the DC-client calculates between key taps, in the mini-breaks (e.g. while you think about how to write a sentence or what number to put into the spreadsheet) etc. It would be nonsense and technically very difficult to slow down or shut down the computer for those pauses which are a second or perhaps 20 seconds short (or long - from DC-point of view). That is the main contribution - and the cost is minimal or even zero.
For those of us, who crunch more and who use old or even new computers, it is a hobby, for some an obscession, for others a more or less important social interaction with other people interested in similar matters. And that is our choice.
I - for one and Wolfsraider for an other and quite a few more people - will defend your right to be of a different opinion, to publish it and also to express yourself in a way that others find offensive or aggressive, but you will have to accept the consequences of such writing.
What saddens me, is the fact that the issue - if and how distibuted computing is of benefit to science in the F@H-project and further along to fellow man - has been clouded. It would have been an interesting ethical discussion, but has turned into a flame war.
Assimilator1
Elite Member
- Nov 4, 1999
- 24,120
- 507
- 126
Mate you are full of sh*t!:|
I already told you that I had no technical knowlegde of F@H ,hence I wasn't arguing any techincal points ,duh!.So how can I be believing one way or the other???:roll:
I merely pointed out to you that you were(are) being rude & arrogant ,but your so full of yourself that you are just blatantly ignoring what I said.
Your bad attitude is what will hurt future projects ,NOT the fact that you are arguing a projects merits.
I feel sorry for the team you are joining!
The bait that was being referred to is your bad attitude right from the word go!
If you think that you can interact with people & be so rude & then expect a quiet technical response to your arguements then your the one who 'needs to get a life' ,why? because if that's how you interact with people then you can't have many friends or much of a social life!.
Why should we or anyone let you get away with being rude & arrogant?
Originally posted by: petrusbroder
...
What saddens me, is the fact that the issue - if and how distibuted computing is of benefit to science in the F@H-project and further along to fellow man - has been clouded. It would have been an interesting ethical discussion, but has turned into a flame war.
Well said... (All of your post(s))
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