When to switch to Advanced 5x5?

[polarmystery]

Hey guys,

I've been doing 5x5 for about 7 weeks just as a refresh due to an injury. I decided to do the 5x5 because my squats were fairly weak anyway and my injury was in my arm. Anyway, I weigh about 185 and I can do 230lbs 5x5 fairly easily now. The program states that if your 1RM is close to or around 1.5x your bodyweight then you should switch. All of the other lifts are progressing the same. Am I a good candidate for the advanced session? Figured I'd get some input. Cheers.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Hey guys,

I've been doing 5x5 for about 7 weeks just as a refresh due to an injury. I decided to do the 5x5 because my squats were fairly weak anyway and my injury was in my arm. Anyway, I weigh about 185 and I can do 230lbs 5x5 fairly easily now. The program states that if your 1RM is close to or around 1.5x your bodyweight then you should switch. All of the other lifts are progressing the same. Am I a good candidate for the advanced session? Figured I'd get some input. Cheers.

There's an intermediate program between the beginner's proggie and the advanced one. To be perfectly honest, 1.5x BW is not intermediate. I would drop the volume to a 3x5, up the weight, and continue with that until you stall. I weighed 155 and took the 3x5 all the way to 3x5x305. You want to try to remain a beginner as long as possible because that's when you can make the greatest gains.

 

[Special K]

There's an intermediate program between the beginner's proggie and the advanced one. To be perfectly honest, 1.5x BW is not intermediate. I would drop the volume to a 3x5, up the weight, and continue with that until you stall. I weighed 155 and took the 3x5 all the way to 3x5x305. You want to try to remain a beginner as long as possible because that's when you can make the greatest gains.

IIRC, the terms "beginner", "intermediate", and "advanced" as they are used in the 5x5 program (and really any periodization program) really don't have anything to do with your PRs. It basically means how close you are to your genetic potential, and how often you are able to train with maximum effort. The further away you are from your potential, the more often you can train at or near maximum effort.

Obviously it's to your advantage to remain in the beginner phase as long as possible since you are able to train more often with maximum effort, but your body will only allow you to do this for so long, and it will vary from one person to the next.

I may not be wording it exactly right, but that's what I read in Rippetoe's book Practical Programming.

 

[brikis98]

SC and Special K are right. In the strength training world, being a beginner vs. intermediate vs. advanced is all about how often you are able to make progress on your lifts. The closer you get to your genetic limit (which is different for everyone), the slower your gains and the more complicated your workout programming becomes.

Beginner: you set new PR's almost every workout - e.g. add 5lbs to your 5RM every workout. This is the stage where you make the fastest possible progress by sticking with a simple linear routine.

Intermediate: you set PR's roughly once a week - e.g. add 5lbs to your 5RM every 3rd workout. Gains come slower and you need a small amount of periodization in your workouts.

Advanced: you set PR's very rarely - once or twice a month, or slower. Gains are slow and your workouts are heavily periodized.

It is to your advantage to stick with beginner programming as long as you possibly can. As long as you can add even 2lbs each workout, don't change anything, or you'll just slow your progress down. Only if you've stalled on your lifts and multiple deloads haven't helped should you consider moving onto intermediate programming. The exact point when this happens depends largely on your genetics, but the typical 185lb male can definitely go heavier than 230 for a set of 5 before he needs to move to an intermediate routine.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

IIRC, the terms "beginner", "intermediate", and "advanced" as they are used in the 5x5 program (and really any periodization program) really don't have anything to do with your PRs. It basically means how close you are to your genetic potential, and how often you are able to train with maximum effort. The further away you are from your potential, the more often you can train at or near maximum effort.

Obviously it's to your advantage to remain in the beginner phase as long as possible since you are able to train more often with maximum effort, but your body will only allow you to do this for so long, and it will vary from one person to the next.

I may not be wording it exactly right, but that's what I read in Rippetoe's book Practical Programming.

You're absolutely right. He stated that he can do 5x5x230 relatively easily so I'm going to say anything easy isn't going to be close to his genetic potential. It's best to train as a beginner as long as you can. I've met some "beginners" who put up some big, big numbers. If people actually stayed with a beginner program until they actually NEEDED to move up, they'd be pleasantly surprised at their current strength.

 

[Special K]

Intermediate: you set PR's roughly once a week - e.g. add 5lbs to your 5RM every 3rd workout. Gains come slower and you need a small amount of periodization in your workouts.

Interestingly I've been following the 5x5 Intermediate routine for about 1.5 years now and am able to set a new PR probably every 2-3 months or so. Usually what happens is I will set a PR, and will then have to "reset" the lift back 1 or more times before I am able to ramp back up and then surpass my previous PR.

I'm not sure if I would be better off switching to an advanced routine or not.

 

[katank]

@ Special K, are you eating enough? Sometimes just eating more can allow you to stick with simple programming.

If you eat a ton and lift heavy, you can stay surprisingly long on a linear progression. Some dude from Wichita Falls Athletic Club (Rippetoe's gym) managed to hit 3x5 of 515. Granted, he's a genetic freak but still shows the potential.

 

[polarmystery]

Great ideas/thoughts in this thread. I tend to agree with them. I just read the program thinking that once you got tot he 1.5x mark you HAD to switch to make additional gains. I'd rather continue to do the beginner 5x5 program until that intermediate threshold. Thanks again guys!

 

[brikis98]

Interestingly I've been following the 5x5 Intermediate routine for about 1.5 years now and am able to set a new PR probably every 2-3 months or so. Usually what happens is I will set a PR, and will then have to "reset" the lift back 1 or more times before I am able to ramp back up and then surpass my previous PR.

I'm not sure if I would be better off switching to an advanced routine or not.

2-3 months seems awfully slow for a PR. How long have you been lifting overall? What does your routine look like? How is your diet? Are you sleeping enough? How is your technique?

 

[Insomniator]

I can do 5x5 225 weighing 170 and have no plans on switching to intermediate... I feel like the beginner routine is a great workout. Plus I HATE dead lifting!

 

[surfsatwerk]

I HATE dead lifting!

Blasphemer! Burn HIM!

 

[Special K]

2-3 months seems awfully slow for a PR. How long have you been lifting overall? What does your routine look like? How is your diet? Are you sleeping enough? How is your technique?

To be fair, I probably should have mentioned that I started the Bill Starr 5x5 Intermediate in late 2008 after having already lifted for 5 years using the Max-OT routine. I had made a lot of progress with Max-OT, but eventually became burnt out with the whole idea of the "bodypart/bodybuilding split" routine. Since switching to Bill Starr 5x5 intermediate, I've enjoyed working out a lot more, but the PR's are pretty slow in coming.

My sleep is fine. My diet is fine in terms of food choices, although I could probably stand to increase my calories a bit more. I've noticed my weight start to dip slightly over the past few weeks, most likely due to increased cardio on my non-lifting days.

What's interesting is that prior to 2003 when I started Max-OT, I followed a workout routine I learned in high school a few years earlier that was very similar to Bill Starr 5x5 Beginner. I made all my "n00b gains" on this routine, although I probably could have progressed even faster if I knew the importance of diet and eating enough back then.

Still, I find it interesting how I have come full circle from full body workouts to bodybuilding split workouts and back to full body workouts again. In reality I probably could have just stuck with the full body workouts the entire time.

 

[spamsk8r]

My sleep is fine. My diet is fine in terms of food choices, although I could probably stand to increase my calories a bit more. I've noticed my weight start to dip slightly over the past few weeks, most likely due to increased cardio on my non-lifting days.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Eating more will help you here.

 

[brikis98]

Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Eating more will help you here.

Yea, I tend to agree. If you want to lift big, you have to eat big. If bodyweight is dropping, then you aren't eating anywhere near enough.

Having said that, it sounds like Special K has been lifting for well over 7 years, so it isn't out of the question that he may need advanced programming... But I'd definitely try eating more - a lot more - first.

 

[Special K]

Yea, I tend to agree. If you want to lift big, you have to eat big. If bodyweight is dropping, then you aren't eating anywhere near enough.

Having said that, it sounds like Special K has been lifting for well over 7 years, so it isn't out of the question that he may need advanced programming... But I'd definitely try eating more - a lot more - first.

Yeah, it's a fine balance at this point. I've definitely been on the side of eating too much, and I don't like the results (i.e. excess fat gain). I have to increase the calories gradually and watch the results.

It's tricky when you throw cardio in the mix because you really don't know how many extra calories it burns - you just have to track your weight for awhile after making the changes and see what happens.

 

[BlackTigers]

230x5x5....I'd stay on the beginner.

Weighing 160 or so, I took Rippetoes up to 275ishx3x5, and I'd still consider myself a beginner.

 

[polarmystery]

230x5x5....I'd stay on the beginner.

Weighing 160 or so, I took Rippetoes up to 275ishx3x5, and I'd still consider myself a beginner.

Yeah, I decided to. I don't necessarily want to get too big, but I'd like to have my numbers at least in the 300's before I settle on maintenance. I'm sure I'm eating enough (around 3300 calories off days, 39/4000 on) so after a few months or so I'm sure I'll be up there. I currently workout Wed/Fri/Sun and going up 15lbs a week has been pretty steady for the past 6 weeks. I'm sure next week or the week after is where I'll hit a snag before I'll have to drop 10%.

is that three sets of 5 or 5 sets of three when you write it with the three numbers?

 

[Special K]

230x5x5....I'd stay on the beginner.

Weighing 160 or so, I took Rippetoes up to 275ishx3x5, and I'd still consider myself a beginner.

As has been mentioned in the thread, the terms "beginner", "intermediate", and "advanced", as they are used in the 5x5 program, have nothing to do with your PRs.

 

[BlackTigers]

As has been mentioned in the thread, the terms "beginner", "intermediate", and "advanced", as they are used in the 5x5 program, have nothing to do with your PRs.

Congratulations, I was talking about my PR's obviously.

 

[gramboh]

@ Special K, are you eating enough? Sometimes just eating more can allow you to stick with simple programming.

If you eat a ton and lift heavy, you can stay surprisingly long on a linear progression. Some dude from Wichita Falls Athletic Club (Rippetoe's gym) managed to hit 3x5 of 515. Granted, he's a genetic freak but still shows the potential.

Yeah, those WFAC guys (Justin, Chris, AC) are pretty impressive, all squatting in the high 400's to 500's for 3 sets of 5 on linear progression, or recently to Texas method intermediate programs. There is also that tall lanky dude that did GOMAD and was around 365x5x3 squats after a couple months, plus a ton of muscle gained. Great to reference those posts when people whine about the program (due to not eating enough -- not talking about OP here, moreso people on the SS forums).

 

[coreyb]

get on the 3x5 program, after two stalls you are ready for an intermediate program. as long as you are eating and sleeping properly the entire time.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

get on the 3x5 program, after two stalls you are ready for an intermediate program. as long as you are eating and sleeping properly the entire time.

There are so many other things that could be a problem here than his actual program. Assuming that the plateaus are from lack of the body to adapt is naive, considering he has not been lifting long enough to induce those kinds of changes in the body.