When Israel feels threatened it refuses to negotiate, When not threatened it feels no need to negotiate

[Freshgeardude]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I guarantee you that I am not the only one who would be unhappy if Israel, on a preemptive basis, attacked Iran. And if Israel is fool enough to preemptively attack Iran, I would say it with a high probability, be the end of the state of Israel in the short run next five years.

i'll put 100 bucks down that if Israel attacks Iran, it will be with the backing of the US and probably other european countries.

secondly, I still cant believe (well actually I can because you sympathize with the hamas terrorists) that you cant understand why a country like Iran can not have nuclear capabilites.


Your only arguement to it is that Israel has nukes. Yes they probably do, but THEY DO NOT ACTIVELY CALL FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF ANOTHER COUNTRY, NOR DO THEY SPEND BILLIONS ON "OFFENSIVE" (KEY WORD HERE) WEAPONS. THEY SPEND IT ON "DEFENSIVE" ONES.


secondly, about your topic.

Israel has already tried an umpteen amount of times to negotiate with the Palestinians. this is a FACT.


I know Israel does not want to A. spend billions on defensive countermeasures. B. Spend money on bombs and other types of weapons. C. go into enemy territory (gaza) and D. kill innocent people.

These points have been exhaustively explained.


The same can not be said about Hamas, nor Iran, nor any country that wants Israel off the map.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I think it comes down to a basic observation that some people are only Israeli fan boys and think Israel can do no wrong, and others think of Israel as just another country.

At at certain points, any country, is capable of doing wrong things that endanger world peace.

And that is not seething hatred, its reality. But it just seems like hatred to those who want to give Israel a totally blank check. Worse yet for Israeli fan boys, Iran is not the paper tiger Syria and Iraq were, because the Iranian retaliation against Israel could shut down the Persian gulf among other things. And ignite a mid-east war that places everyone in danger.

first bold: No, I think israel can do wrong, its just what you and I consider wrong is as opposite as the north and south pole.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/S...2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

I think the soldier did wrong. He got jail time because of it.


second bold: so when are you going to consider Iran's nuclear program an endangerment to world peace? I still think you you believe the program is peaceful.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Originally posted by: Freshgeardude

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I think it comes down to a basic observation that some people are only Israeli fan boys and think Israel can do no wrong, and others think of Israel as just another country.

At at certain points, any country, is capable of doing wrong things that endanger world peace.

And that is not seething hatred, its reality. But it just seems like hatred to those who want to give Israel a totally blank check. Worse yet for Israeli fan boys, Iran is not the paper tiger Syria and Iraq were, because the Iranian retaliation against Israel could shut down the Persian gulf among other things. And ignite a mid-east war that places everyone in danger.

first bold: No, I think israel can do wrong, its just what you and I consider wrong is as opposite as the north and south pole.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/S...2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

I think the soldier did wrong. He got jail time because of it.


second bold: so when are you going to consider Iran's nuclear program an endangerment to world peace? I still think you you believe the program is peaceful.

third bold: It is hatred. this is your biggest problem. You dont understand the history behind a lot of this. You just brush the surface. If you listen to any videos from high authority figures in any of the countries that hate israel, you will understand.

When one country attacks another, at that point it is hate. no matter what. always. period.

indirect funding also applies ie: iran giving money and weapons to hamas and hezbollah

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
If there wasn't a huge number of religious wackos in America, Israel would have been wiped off the planet a while ago. One of the biggest reasons why America stands up for Israel is because a huge portion of the electorate believe that Israel's existence is necessary before Jesus comes back.

Stop swilling the historical revisionism kool-aid. It was European countries that created Israel and maintained it initially. The US didn't get very politically involved until the late-60s/early-70s. Nor are Zionist Christians any large part of the electorate of the US.

 

[Lemon law]

Well at least freshgeardude is willing to say, "When one country attacks another, at that point it is hate. no matter what. always. period."

Which then also puts Israel on the same hook for its attacks on Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq, and we have to wonder if a Israeli concentration camp like Gaza is a country?

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
If there wasn't a huge number of religious wackos in America, Israel would have been wiped off the planet a while ago. One of the biggest reasons why America stands up for Israel is because a huge portion of the electorate believe that Israel's existence is necessary before Jesus comes back.

Stop swilling the historical revisionism kool-aid. It was European countries that created Israel and maintained it initially. The US didn't get very politically involved until the late-60s/early-70s. Nor are Zionist Christians any large part of the electorate of the US.

American Christian Zionism had much to do with the creation of Israel, here is an excellent article on the early days. As for their significance in the electorate today, I'm at a loss to come up with any other voting block larger than that of the evangelical Christians. Granted, the real power behind the Zionist movement is that of the robber barons, as Israel serves as a neo-imperialist outpost for their exploitation of the Middle East, but Christian Zionism still plays a significant roll in facilitating the scheme.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
If there wasn't a huge number of religious wackos in America, Israel would have been wiped off the planet a while ago. One of the biggest reasons why America stands up for Israel is because a huge portion of the electorate believe that Israel's existence is necessary before Jesus comes back.

How is that worse than your Islamic views? You are just as much or more whacko than any Xtian fundie.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: OCguy
How is that worse than your Islamic views?

What views are you referring to here, specifically?

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: OCguy

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
If there wasn't a huge number of religious wackos in America, Israel would have been wiped off the planet a while ago. One of the biggest reasons why America stands up for Israel is because a huge portion of the electorate believe that Israel's existence is necessary before Jesus comes back.

How is that worse than your Islamic views? You are just as much or more whacko than any Xtian fundie.

Hey baby, who said his view right here is ISlamically based? HE simply stated that evangelical support for Israel played a pivotal role in Israel's existence. I know you are up in OC, so go listen to 107.9 (ie: JEsus Channel). I've listened plenty of several months, and they are fairly clear on their support, and quietly drum up all the fanficul political/pseudo religious ideas to support it.

Furthermore, who said what his view was on ISrael/Palestine situation? I've read his posts and he doesn't advocate the erasure from ISrael on the map last I saw. Of course I may be wrong if things changed with him....

 

[Freshgeardude]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Well at least freshgeardude is willing to say, "When one country attacks another, at that point it is hate. no matter what. always. period."

Which then also puts Israel on the same hook for its attacks on Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq, and we have to wonder if a Israeli concentration camp like Gaza is a country?

umm.... ANY time Israel attacks is after they are hit or their soldiers are kidnapped.

2nd Lebanon war started because hezbollah extremist attacked a patrol and kidnapped the soldiers.

Any time Israel attacked syria, aside from the nuclear reactors, was because they attacked Israel. It was pretty obvious that Syria's nuclear program was meant for weapons. They never attacked back.

Iraq- same as syria, nuclear reactors. Besides, there is a reason why the US is in Iraq. same problem Israel is faced with effects the US.

Gaza- How about all of those missile and mortar shell attacks in the months from the treaty to operation cast lead. did you forget about those? You say its an israeli concentration camp like it is as bad as in nazi era europe. I dont see gas chambers, crematoria, or forced labor. What I do see is lack of food, and the sole blame of that is Hamas, a radical terrorist organization who uses their own people as human shields. Its been proven that Hamas has already stolen food trucks to sell the food for extorted prices.
its 8am and im not going to dig up old posts to prove it to you. you were there in the conversations

 

[ZeGermans]

Originally posted by: Freshgeardude
Gaza- How about all of those missile and mortar shell attacks in the months from the treaty to operation cast lead. did you forget about those? You say its an israeli concentration camp like it is as bad as in nazi era europe. I dont see gas chambers, crematoria, or forced labor. What I do see is lack of food, and the sole blame of that is Hamas, a radical terrorist organization who uses their own people as human shields. Its been proven that Hamas has already stolen food trucks to sell the food for extorted prices.
its 8am and im not going to dig up old posts to prove it to you. you were there in the conversations

Hi, those missile and mortar shell attacks didn't happen for four months as I already stated until Israel started the fighting again, basically as a pretense to exterminate some arabs

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: JSt0rm01

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The United Nations should give the Kurds a state inside of Israel.

lmao good one

seconded

On a related note, newsweek has a good article on how "tough love" relation towards israel have histoically produced positive results.

Text

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: ZeGermans

Originally posted by: Freshgeardude
Gaza- How about all of those missile and mortar shell attacks in the months from the treaty to operation cast lead. did you forget about those? You say its an israeli concentration camp like it is as bad as in nazi era europe. I dont see gas chambers, crematoria, or forced labor. What I do see is lack of food, and the sole blame of that is Hamas, a radical terrorist organization who uses their own people as human shields. Its been proven that Hamas has already stolen food trucks to sell the food for extorted prices.
its 8am and im not going to dig up old posts to prove it to you. you were there in the conversations

Hi, those missile and mortar shell attacks didn't happen for four months as I already stated until Israel started the fighting again, basically as a pretense to exterminate some arabs

Israel attacked after the cease fire had expired AND after attacks had restarted from Gaza.

Attacks from Gaza initially broke the cease fire.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I think it comes down to a basic observation that some people are only Israeli fan boys and think Israel can do no wrong, and others think of Israel as just another country.

At at certain points, any country, is capable of doing wrong.

Are you willing to acknowledge that Israel is, in essence, still having to defend itself against the attempted genocide that the Muslims initiated decades ago? Remember the Nazi-loving Mufti?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
If there wasn't a huge number of religious wackos in America, Israel would have been wiped off the planet a while ago.

Wiped off the map...by genocidal Muslim religious wackos?

One of the biggest reasons why America stands up for Israel is because a huge portion of the electorate believe that Israel's existence is necessary before Jesus comes back.

Many Americans recognize that the Israelis stand for reason and Western Civilization whereas the Arabs stand for barbarism, dictatorship, and the subjugation of women.

The real tragedy is that the Western world allowed the Arabs to own and profit from the oil. The Muslim religion is a backwards, primitive religion that would never allow its followers to discover the existence of the oil beneath the ground, nor figure out how to pump it out and refine it, nor create any material items that could use that oil. (The automobile was a Western innovation.) Then later we allowed the Arab nations to seize Western-built and owned oil wells. The big mistake was allowing them to profit from the oil that they did not deserve to benefit from. Had we not felt pity felt pity for them, they might still be riding around on camels, lopping each others' heads off with scimitars and treating women like chattel. (Oh wait, don't they still do that, at least the later part?)

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Freshgeardudethird bold: It is hatred. this is your biggest problem. You dont understand the history behind a lot of this. You just brush the surface. If you listen to any videos from high authority figures in any of the countries that hate israel, you will understand.

To understand Israel and the Palestinians, an excellent retelling of the history is available in two novels by Leon Uris, Exodus and The Haj.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: ZeGermansHi, those missile and mortar shell attacks didn't happen for four months as I already stated until Israel started the fighting again, basically as a pretense to exterminate some arabs

If Israel really wanted to exterminate the Arabs, they would have done it already. If anything, Israel has been amazingly gentle with these people. Can you imagine what a Chinese or Soviet-government mentality would have done in Israel's place?

Israel's problem may be that it is too gentle and too altruistic. Israel should simply seize and annex one square mile of land for every Israeli citizen who is killed in terrorist attacks or perhaps do it retroactively for all who have been killed in the Arab wars of attempted genocide.

 

[Tab]

Does Isreali really have the means to attack or invade Iran? Not to mention I'd suspect this would be a huge diplomatic disaster with the United States.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
If there wasn't a huge number of religious wackos in America, Israel would have been wiped off the planet a while ago.

Wiped off the map...by genocidal Muslim religious wackos?

One of the biggest reasons why America stands up for Israel is because a huge portion of the electorate believe that Israel's existence is necessary before Jesus comes back.

Many Americans recognize that the Israelis stand for reason and Western Civilization whereas the Arabs stand for barbarism, dictatorship, and the subjugation of women.

The real tragedy is that the Western world allowed the Arabs to own and profit from the oil. The Muslim religion is a backwards, primitive religion that would never allow its followers to discover the existence of the oil beneath the ground, nor figure out how to pump it out and refine it, nor create any material items that could use that oil. (The automobile was a Western innovation.) Then later we allowed the Arab nations to seize Western-built and owned oil wells. The big mistake was allowing them to profit from the oil that they did not deserve to benefit from. Had we not felt pity felt pity for them, they might still be riding around on camels, lopping each others' heads off with scimitars and treating women like chattel. (Oh wait, don't they still do that, at least the later part?)

Wow, just wow.
:roll:

Repeat after me:
Arab != Muslim != Sharia Law.

Had you actually ventured outside the state you were born in, you'd see things like Tunisia (arab and muslim), serbia (white, muslim), phillipines (muslim), turkey (muslim with secular, democratic gov't) and all the other places that don't fit into your retarded view of the world. Despite of what fox news says, not all Arab is not a synonym to Muslim and neither of which are defined as "bin Laden"


The stupid is strong with this one.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: Freshgeardudethird bold: It is hatred. this is your biggest problem. You dont understand the history behind a lot of this. You just brush the surface. If you listen to any videos from high authority figures in any of the countries that hate israel, you will understand.

To understand Israel and the Palestinians, an excellent retelling of the history is available in two novels by Leon Uris, Exodus and The Haj.

Err doesn't he write fiction ?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: Freshgeardudethird bold: It is hatred. this is your biggest problem. You dont understand the history behind a lot of this. You just brush the surface. If you listen to any videos from high authority figures in any of the countries that hate israel, you will understand.

To understand Israel and the Palestinians, an excellent retelling of the history is available in two novels by Leon Uris, Exodus and The Haj.

Err doesn't he write fiction ?

Those novels are pretty accurate historical fiction. Do you think that their portrayal of the Arab mentality is inaccurate? What did you think of The Haj?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: halik
Wow, just wow.
:roll:

Repeat after me:
Arab != Muslim != Sharia Law.

Had you actually ventured outside the state you were born in, you'd see things like Tunisia (arab and muslim), serbia (white, muslim), phillipines (muslim), turkey (muslim with secular, democratic gov't) and all the other places that don't fit into your retarded view of the world. Despite of what fox news says, not all Arab is not a synonym to Muslim and neither of which are defined as "bin Laden"


The stupid is strong with this one.

Believe whatever you want, but it isn't the Western nations that have home-grown Taliban movements in their backyards, that maintain monarchies, and that oppress women by law.

I do applaud the people in those nations who have outgrown the religion, become secular, and advanced. However, the fact remains that a great many people and nations are still living under it.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: kylebisme

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
If there wasn't a huge number of religious wackos in America, Israel would have been wiped off the planet a while ago. One of the biggest reasons why America stands up for Israel is because a huge portion of the electorate believe that Israel's existence is necessary before Jesus comes back.

Stop swilling the historical revisionism kool-aid. It was European countries that created Israel and maintained it initially. The US didn't get very politically involved until the late-60s/early-70s. Nor are Zionist Christians any large part of the electorate of the US.

American Christian Zionism had much to do with the creation of Israel, here is an excellent article on the early days. As for their significance in the electorate today, I'm at a loss to come up with any other voting block larger than that of the evangelical Christians. Granted, the real power behind the Zionist movement is that of the robber barons, as Israel serves as a neo-imperialist outpost for their exploitation of the Middle East, but Christian Zionism still plays a significant roll in facilitating the scheme.

Early advocacy for a Jewish state in Palestine and the actual creation of Israel are two different things. The actual creation of Israel was primarily a European effort through the UN.

We could blame all kinds of reasons for the establishment of Israel. The Russian pogroms had a huge influence. So did the widespread anti-Semitism in Europe. The Yemenite Jews, Libyan Jews, Iraqi Jews, Egyptian, Lebanese, Syrian, etc.; all immigrated due to massacres and persecution in their homelands. Initially, nobody helped Israel retain their statehood. They kicked the Arab opposition ass all by themselves. In the Suez War, France and the USSR were two of the biggest supporters of Israel.

Blaming the US for the continued existence of Israel is historical revisionism at it's finest. For some reason that old chestnut has propagated though and has even been accepted by many as gospel. Ironically enough, it's been accepted primarily by the self-loathing leftist Americans, it seems.

Finally, not all Evangelical Christians are Zionist Christians. You might even be surprised that even Evangelical Christians don't actually vote in one huge bloc, as so many assume. It's quite a bit more nuanced than that:

http://www.publiceye.org/magaz...ical-demographics.html

I guess for some it's easier to make broad, sweeping generalizations that are clothed only in partial truths than to deal with the actual, factual details though.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Are you willing to acknowledge that Israel is, in essence, still having to defend itself against the attempted genocide that the Muslims initiated decades ago?

Are you referring to when the Arab states tried to stop the Zionists from ethnically cleansing Palestine?

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Remember the Nazi-loving Mufti?

Sure, but do you remember the the Zionists love affair with the Nazis? They even commemorated their kinship with a medal.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Those novels are pretty accurate historical fiction. Do you think that their portrayal of the Arab mentality is inaccurate? What did you think of The Haj?

I generally avoid fiction, but based what I've seen of your perspective, this review seems like an accurate description of the book:

We Arabs are the worst. . . ."" That is the theme of this crude propaganda-novel by the author of Exodus, which traces the Palestinian-refugee problem up through 1956--blaming 100 percent of it on the British and the Arabs (Arab greed, decadence, laziness, backwardness, bestiality, etc.), putting the case into the mouths of a few relatively ""good"" Arabs.

If you insist on reading fiction, you could at least read a book from an Arab to balance your perspective. I hear The Scar of David is excellent.