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When is war justified?

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
1
81
Here are my thoughts...

All wars of aggression are illegal. To me that's self-evident. Wars of defense are legal; the individual has a right to protect himself and I believe that extends to a country.

Sometimes, it seems, we can justify going to war outside of those extremes. But when is war justifiable? We get into the grey area where somehow it becomes acceptable to wage war even when the attacker isn't in jeapordy.

During the Cold War we feared the expansion of communist U.S.S.R. to such a degree we came to the defense of countries we believed the Soviets would assimilate. The U.S. was never directly threatened. The thought was in a possible future where half the planet's countries were Soviet satellites. At that point nothing could stop communist expansion. Were our actions justified then in Korea and Vietnam?

Recently we went to war with Yugoslavia to deny its leader the means to drive out rebel ethnic Albanians. We weren't threatened. There was propoganda to the effect that Europe was somehow in danger should Milosovic succeed but it was nonsense. Was Clinton justified in obliterating that nation?

Now we have the mid-east. You have countries with political systems that don't exactly engender human rights. Many of them are oil and natural gas rich and the planet's energy needs are ever thristy making them a tempting target for exploitation.

The CIA has been meddling there for decades, installing a puppet here and there, aiding rebel factions to revolt against these governments...we've even armed some of these nations to try to manipulate the balance of power in the region. Today there is no longer a risk of Soviet expansion into the middle east but concerns of terrorism are at the forefront. Is our continued manipulation still warranted?

So what do you think? When is war absolutely justified? When isn't it? When is it a judgement call? Perhaps after answering these questions we can design a better foreign policy.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I like this quote by American prosecutors at Nuremberg:

?It is important that the trial not become an inquiry into the causes of the war. It cannot be established that Hitlerism was the sole cause of the war, and there should be no effort to do this. Nor, I believe, should there be any effort or time spent on apportioning out responsibility for causing the war among the many nations and individuals concerned . The question of causation is important and will be discussed for many years, but it has no place in this trial, which must stick rigorously to the doctrine that planning and launching an aggressive war is illegal, whatever may be the factors that caused the defendants to plan and to launch. Contributing causes may be pleaded by the defendants before the bar of history, but not before the tribunal.?

Sorry potential threats (whatever they are and whoever determines it however) is not enough. Well it was'nt then for Germany and it has always been our policy.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
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To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
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Originally posted by: Zebo
Sorry potential threats (whatever they are and whoever determines it however) is not enough. Well it was'nt then for Germany and it has always been our policy.

Pre-emption is our new doctine. Read the National Security Strategy of the United States, 2002 version.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
I know... Funny you should mention this...I just sent moonie an analysis of this document..
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Originally posted by: Zebo
I know... Funny you should mention this...I just sent moonie an analysis of this document..

Want to share? I would love to read it.
 

B00ne

Platinum Member
May 21, 2001
2,168
1
0
Originally posted by: Orsorum
When it serves US interests.

Is that your opinion or the accurate assessment of what the US are doing?

Anyway that sentence actually is very precise and declares the US as a rogue nation that just takes what it needs/wants if necessary by force.


Imho war is only justified in self defense.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: etech
Was the war in 1991 against Iraq justified?

Iraq was an invasion force so a retaliation was legal

When was the cease fire signed , what were the conditions on which it was signed and were those conditions met?
 

mastertech01

Moderator Emeritus Elite Member
Nov 13, 1999
11,875
282
126
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: etech
Was the war in 1991 against Iraq justified?

Iraq was an invasion force so a retaliation was legal


Thus since this was a continuation of that war, which was only at a point of cease fire, and Iraq repeatedly failed to comply to the terms of the cease fire, its continuation was therefore legal. IMHO
 

AvesPKS

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
4,729
0
0
I don't understand where all of this is coming from. If you break the "law" in the US, you can be arrested by a police officer, tried by a judge/jury, and sentenced to serve time in jail. The only reason this all works is because there are a lot of police officers, and if you tried to resist them, more would come, until they had you under control (for the most part). Then the judge/jury makes a decision, and it is abided by. Then the warden of the jail will take the person into jail, and not let them out until a predetermined time. This only all works because there are people who will uphold the law, and can force you to either abide by the law, or face punishment if you choose not to. I don't really see any such organization which exists on an international level that would perform these same duties. I mean, what is "international law"? It's only as relevant as the people willing to enforce it...and I really don't see anybody knocking on the US's door and saying, "I'm sorry, sir, you're going to have to come with me...you did a bad thing, and you're going to jail." The only way were able to "enforce the law" against Germany was by defeating them in WWII...short of the whole world ganging up on the US, I do not see any point in debating the "legality" or "wrongness" of this war. The only way it's enforceable is if there are people willing to back it up, and a way to do so with force, if necessary, and this simply exist. I guess I think that this is really a moot point.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,747
6,762
126
The UN authorized consequences if Iraq failed to abide by its agreement. The nature of those consequences were not agreed upon and the US applied its own judgment unilaterally and preemptively after applying coercion to any and all it could and by producing and manipulating false intelligence to foment a war history at home. The US acted with criminal conspiracy to fake compliance with law. The intention was to create a strategic advantage based on a theoretical religious ideological doctrine propounded in PNAC, not to disarm. The US cut short the UN weapons inspections and has found nothing to date while it pleads for more time. The new American doctrine is based on the insane notion that America and God are one and the same because its law contains that notion. But God only thinks he's President. The guy God chose had the election stolen from him.
 

AvesPKS

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
4,729
0
0
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The UN authorized consequences if Iraq failed to abide by its agreement. The nature of those consequences were not agreed upon and the US applied its own judgment unilaterally and preemptively after applying coercion to any and all it could and by producing and manipulating false intelligence to foment a war history at home. The US acted with criminal conspiracy to fake compliance with law. The intention was to create a strategic advantage based on a theoretical religious ideological doctrine propounded in PNAC, not to disarm. The US cut short the UN weapons inspections and has found nothing to date while it pleads for more time. The new American doctrine is based on the insane notion that America and God are one and the same because its law contains that notion. But God only thinks he's President. The guy God chose had the election stolen from him.

Ahh, but Hitler didn't have God on his side...we do. In other words, who's going to stop us? :D
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
When is war justified?
*****************

Any day but Sunday and between the hours of 9:00 am and 3:00 pm Monday through Friday and 10:00 am until 11:30 am on Saturday.
God said!
 

B00ne

Platinum Member
May 21, 2001
2,168
1
0
Originally posted by: mastertech01
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: etech
Was the war in 1991 against Iraq justified?

Iraq was an invasion force so a retaliation was legal


Thus since this was a continuation of that war, which was only at a point of cease fire, and Iraq repeatedly failed to comply to the terms of the cease fire, its continuation was therefore legal. IMHO

Uhm no: Guy A occupies home of guy B, then Group C (to which guyA and B are member) comes along and drives Guy A out of Bs home. Now Guy D comes along, declares: Guy A u violated the contract that u signed with Group C (even though GroupC disagrees) . Now I will devastate and occupy your home.

To call that legal seems to be quite an interesting grasp of law Sounds more like taking the law into one's own hands, which again is illegal.
 

Dudd

Platinum Member
Aug 3, 2001
2,865
0
0
Originally posted by: AvesPKS
I don't understand where all of this is coming from. If you break the "law" in the US, you can be arrested by a police officer, tried by a judge/jury, and sentenced to serve time in jail. The only reason this all works is because there are a lot of police officers, and if you tried to resist them, more would come, until they had you under control (for the most part). Then the judge/jury makes a decision, and it is abided by. Then the warden of the jail will take the person into jail, and not let them out until a predetermined time. This only all works because there are people who will uphold the law, and can force you to either abide by the law, or face punishment if you choose not to. I don't really see any such organization which exists on an international level that would perform these same duties. I mean, what is "international law"? It's only as relevant as the people willing to enforce it...and I really don't see anybody knocking on the US's door and saying, "I'm sorry, sir, you're going to have to come with me...you did a bad thing, and you're going to jail." The only way were able to "enforce the law" against Germany was by defeating them in WWII...short of the whole world ganging up on the US, I do not see any point in debating the "legality" or "wrongness" of this war. The only way it's enforceable is if there are people willing to back it up, and a way to do so with force, if necessary, and this simply exist. I guess I think that this is really a moot point.

That pretty much sums up my whole thinking on international law. Without there being provisions to enforce it universally, it has zero relevance.
 
Dec 27, 2001
11,272
1
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The UN authorized consequences if Iraq failed to abide by its agreement. The nature of those consequences were not agreed upon and the US applied its own judgment unilaterally (I seem to recall a large coalition but that was SO long ago) and preemptively after applying coercion (Oooh...coersion...such a devious word to apply to the situation...I just hate coersion, don't you?) to any and all it could and by producing and manipulating (coersion AND manipulation...wow you've used nearly every conspirist buzzword so far) false intelligence (One of the many many many pieces of intelligence was false so the entirety of the intelligence is? Well I guess it is if there's a Republican in the White House, right?.) to foment a war history at home. The US acted with criminal conspiracy (Criminal conspiracy...that's so much better than non-criminal conspiracy. Though I do wonder if using the word conspiracy in a conspirist message isn't a little too obvious.) to fake compliance with law(which law?). The intention was to create a strategic advantage based on a theoretical religious ideological doctrine (you forgot imaginary) propounded in PNAC, not to disarm. The US cut short the UN weapons inspections and has found nothing to date while it pleads for more time. The new American doctrine is based on the insane notion that America and God are one and the same because its law contains that notion(our law is based on the notion because law IS the notion? Gotcha. :roll;). But God only thinks he's President(I thought God was America like you said in your last sentence). The guy God chose had the election stolen from him(Bob Dole is over it...why aren't you?).
 

DaiShan

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2001
9,617
1
0
Justified how? It depends on which value system you are using. Justified according to human nature or this BS idea of peace and philanthropism to make the world a better place? The government has a duty to protect the interests of its people. When those interests are at risk, the government is justified in taking any means necessary to sustain those interests, by human nature. Now if you want to use the value of human life then we would quickly come to the conclusion that war is only justified if the war could be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to save more lives than it would take. See the problem is people want to combine values, or use a selective value system to justify war, it only makes them look ridiculous.
 

DaiShan

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2001
9,617
1
0
Originally posted by: AvesPKS
I don't understand where all of this is coming from. If you break the "law" in the US, you can be arrested by a police officer, tried by a judge/jury, and sentenced to serve time in jail. The only reason this all works is because there are a lot of police officers, and if you tried to resist them, more would come, until they had you under control (for the most part). Then the judge/jury makes a decision, and it is abided by. Then the warden of the jail will take the person into jail, and not let them out until a predetermined time. This only all works because there are people who will uphold the law, and can force you to either abide by the law, or face punishment if you choose not to. I don't really see any such organization which exists on an international level that would perform these same duties. I mean, what is "international law"? It's only as relevant as the people willing to enforce it...and I really don't see anybody knocking on the US's door and saying, "I'm sorry, sir, you're going to have to come with me...you did a bad thing, and you're going to jail." The only way were able to "enforce the law" against Germany was by defeating them in WWII...short of the whole world ganging up on the US, I do not see any point in debating the "legality" or "wrongness" of this war. The only way it's enforceable is if there are people willing to back it up, and a way to do so with force, if necessary, and this simply exist. I guess I think that this is really a moot point.

You make some good points, and I definitely do agree with you, however the point of this discussion is morality (right vs wrong) not legality (despite what some seem to believe legality is not necessarily the end all, as you pointed out in your post)