when hiring new programmers...

[OogyWaWa]

Just had a random thought...

when companies are hiring new programmers, is it better for said programmer to be extremely versed in one/two languages and its most popular framework or to be versed in many languages, have knowledge of the popular frameworks, but not necessarily a programming god of one language. so, i suppose it is the 'jack of all trades vs. master of one' argument and it depends a lot on the company's culture and what they are developing, but still, opinions?

 

[seemingly random]

When I was hiring programmers in the 90s, I looked for two basic qualities. Native intelligence and desire/drive/enthusiasm. If you have these you can succeed at almost anything.

Did you necessarily mean new programmers or just programmers? New usually implies a lot of training will be needed. Experienced programmers will need some training but, to a large extent, can train themselves in a company's current needs.

Of course, the most attractive scenario would be the one where the applicant is expert in all the areas needed. But if the applicant is expert or just experienced in similar areas, it's almost as good. It hugely depends on how flexible and confident they are.

A pet peeve I had was any resume that listed a bunch of acronyms with no qualification. These were tossed the quickest. I had zero experience or training in hiring. It turned out good for the most part. A couple of clock watchers still got by though. The high gpa applicants did not usually turn out to be the best workers.

 

[troytime]

good programming knowledge is a must, even if its not the language we're using
if they know the language we're using, even better

they also MUST program for fun/leisure

 

[OogyWaWa]

by new i meant new to the company. the programmer can be a workforce noob or a an ancient

 

[SilentZero]

I always think it is better to be an expert in a few rather than knowledgeable in many (when it comes to programming languages).

What does annoy me is how some people will throw a laundry list of languages on their resume, in which most cases they don't have that much experience with a few on that long list.
If your at a intermediate level or above definitely list it. If you skimmed a book on a language, wrote a few small programs at home with it, it shouldn't be on your resume.

 

[Snapster]

The fundamentals of programming are transferable. I tend to look a little deeper in to how they solve problems and what challenges they have faced and overcome in the past. Work with what they think is their strongest language and see what they can, and have done with it.

Candidates who list every single language under the sun and grade each as learning, working knowledge, intermediate and expert I will tend to lower in the selection list unless I spot something stellar. To be fair they usually are the less experienced looking to pad out their CV a bit.

 

[presidentender]

I think it's more important for a programmer to be aware of technologies than it is to be specifically well-versed in a given programming language. For instance, a poor Java programmer who is database-aware is a much better bet than a Java whiz who wants to do everything with flat files. It's also important to have some understanding of data structures, and to know that a "working" program isn't necessarily acceptable (I don't care if you can give me the big-O performance of your code, but I do care if there's a noticeable delay between the user pressing 'OK' and the end of execution).

 

[Markbnj]

I agree with everything that's been said, however I think the reality in many, perhaps most, situations is that they will ask a ton of questions that are very specific to the technology in use.

 

[presidentender]

Originally posted by: Markbnj
I agree with everything that's been said, however I think the reality in many, perhaps most, situations is that they will ask a ton of questions that are very specific to the technology in use.

I thought the OP was looking for the best bet when hiring, although I suppose it's more likely that he's looking for the best way to get a job. In that case, absolutely, boning up on a specific technology stack (the one in the job ad) is important.

 

[Kirby]

If you don't know C/C++, Ada, ASM, or Labview I don't imagine you could get a programming job at my company. I implemented some Lua scripting in one program, but that's about as crazy as it gets. NET and frameworks are scofffed at. But if you know C/C++, most of the skills are transferrable, you just got to pick up a new syntax. And for new employees, I can just about bet that most companies value the ability to learn over raw skill.

 

[Markbnj]

Originally posted by: presidentender

Originally posted by: Markbnj
I agree with everything that's been said, however I think the reality in many, perhaps most, situations is that they will ask a ton of questions that are very specific to the technology in use.

I thought the OP was looking for the best bet when hiring, although I suppose it's more likely that he's looking for the best way to get a job. In that case, absolutely, boning up on a specific technology stack (the one in the job ad) is important.

Yeah, I may have misread that, but you can read my reply both ways too. Most companies apparently want people who can answer specific questions on the current stack, or they lack people with imagination when it comes to formulating interview questions.

 

[sourceninja]

Originally posted by: troytime
good programming knowledge is a must, even if its not the language we're using
if they know the language we're using, even better

they also MUST program for fun/leisure

Guess I'm out. I used to program for fun. But now that it is my job, I only program outside of work when I have a task to accomplish and can't find a suitable application. Otherwise I'd much rather be outside or doing something away from my desk that I sit at for 10+ hours a day.

 

[tfinch2]

Originally posted by: troytime
they also MUST program for fun/leisure

Guess that disqualifies me. :laugh:

After working 60 hours a week, the last thing I want to do is write more code.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

For newbies out of school, you better not put anything on your resume that isn't true. If you put Java/Swing on there, you better be able to talk about layout managers and such. If you don't you will be quickly dismissed.

Just be honest and know what you want to do. And quite frankly, how good of a fit with the others yo will be is also of consideration.

 

[sourceninja]

Originally posted by: tfinch2

Originally posted by: troytime
they also MUST program for fun/leisure

Guess that disqualifies me. :laugh:

After working 60 hours a week, the last thing I want to do is write more code.

The other thing I realized when thinking about this is I do not enjoy programming. In fact sometimes I down right hate it.

What I enjoy is the challenge of the task. Case in point, when I'm forced to write a script that simply outputs a pdf or some other trivial nonsense I hate it.

Now asking me to figure out some complicated task that requires planning, research, and creative thought is what I enjoy. I get my enjoyment from conquering challenges, not doing the tasks that allow that to happen.

So I guess I hate programming.

 

[Schadenfroh]

Originally posted by: Snapster
Candidates who list every single language under the sun and grade each as learning, working knowledge, intermediate and expert I will tend to lower in the selection list unless I spot something stellar. To be fair they usually are the less experienced looking to pad out their CV a bit.

**updates resume**

 

[Gamingphreek]

Please - I have languages that I have programmed on my resume that I am not very proficient (read: MatLab). I haven't used MatLab in 2 years, and even then I had only used it briefly, it was still on my resume. My C++ knowledge isn't great (but I know C at an advanced level), and Java I am very proficient in. I also put HTML on there when I can make basic web pages and can read the language - nothing very advanced.

Honestly, if you know 1 language, you wont have a problem getting up to speed on the others. Don't lie on your resume, but don't sell yourself short. If you know and have used a language to some extent PUT IT DOWN.

Right now, I'm not using any of my Java skills, I am programming in C++ (Haven't programmed in it in 2 years, been using C and Java instead) and MatLab. If you show you have a passion to learn and have a working knowledge of the language it isn't a problem. Companies don't just throw you into the fire - if you are doing an internship, everyone will be overseeing you and helping you, you will have references (book and online), and you will be given reasonable tasks - Don't let some of these people scare you.

-Kevin

 

[squatchman]

All of the programming knowledge and skill in the world won't get you through an interview. Usually a good project manager just wants someone they can trust to get the job done before heading out for some beers at the end of the week.

 

[joutlaw]

they also MUST program for fun/leisure

I applied for a job out of school where they asked if I programmed for fun. I had express editions of VB installed so I let them know I did sometimes, but nothing too extreme.

I was interviewed by 3 managers in the programming department at my current job. They all passed on me and then I interviewed with QA. I did a lot of work that got me recognition from programming in the 9 months I worked in QA. Eventually a different manager in programming talked to me about moving to programming and I accepted. It's still odd seeing those other 3 managers and the people they hired who have either already left the company, should be helpdesk support, and the other just isn't that sharp.

I'm with the majority of most people in my field. I would spend a lot of my free time on computers, but now after working with it day in and day out I don't enjoy it so much. Mainly home theatre pc tinkering is the most I play around with now. I don't enjoy gaming on the PC or buying the latest hardware anymore.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Please - I have languages that I have programmed on my resume that I am not very proficient (read: MatLab). I haven't used MatLab in 2 years, and even then I had only used it briefly, it was still on my resume. My C++ knowledge isn't great (but I know C at an advanced level), and Java I am very proficient in. I also put HTML on there when I can make basic web pages and can read the language - nothing very advanced.

Honestly, if you know 1 language, you wont have a problem getting up to speed on the others. Don't lie on your resume, but don't sell yourself short. If you know and have used a language to some extent PUT IT DOWN.

Right now, I'm not using any of my Java skills, I am programming in C++ (Haven't programmed in it in 2 years, been using C and Java instead) and MatLab. If you show you have a passion to learn and have a working knowledge of the language it isn't a problem. Companies don't just throw you into the fire - if you are doing an internship, everyone will be overseeing you and helping you, you will have references (book and online), and you will be given reasonable tasks - Don't let some of these people scare you.

-Kevin

If a resume included the items and descriptions above, it wouldn't end up in the trash. If a resume included: "I have experience with MatLab, C++, C, HTML and Java", it would probably end up in the trash. It looks like an attempt at hiding inexperience. Honesty counts. An applicant should expect honesty from the company also.

Obviously, the resume of someone with school experience only is going to look quite different from one that has several years experience. Just out of school will look like above. Experienced should focus on projects associated with (and what tools/languages used).

Resume writing is an art. It's main purpose is getting that first interview. I always found that a hundred dollar bill stapled to the resume had some influence also...

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: joutlaw
...
I was interviewed by 3 managers in the programming department at my current job. They all passed on me and then I interviewed with QA. I did a lot of work that got me recognition from programming in the 9 months I worked in QA. Eventually a different manager in programming talked to me about moving to programming and I accepted. It's still odd seeing those other 3 managers and the people they hired who have either already left the company, should be helpdesk support, and the other just isn't that sharp.

I'm with the majority of most people in my field. I would spend a lot of my free time on computers, but now after working with it day in and day out I don't enjoy it so much. Mainly home theatre pc tinkering is the most I play around with now. I don't enjoy gaming on the PC or buying the latest hardware anymore.

I've heard of this exact thing happening several times. As a guess, I wonder if they thought you didn't appear aggressive enough. Do you have a degree in computer science?

I suppose it's like starting out in the minors...

 

[Cogman]

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Please - I have languages that I have programmed on my resume that I am not very proficient (read: MatLab). I haven't used MatLab in 2 years, and even then I had only used it briefly, it was still on my resume. My C++ knowledge isn't great (but I know C at an advanced level), and Java I am very proficient in. I also put HTML on there when I can make basic web pages and can read the language - nothing very advanced.

Honestly, if you know 1 language, you wont have a problem getting up to speed on the others. Don't lie on your resume, but don't sell yourself short. If you know and have used a language to some extent PUT IT DOWN.

Right now, I'm not using any of my Java skills, I am programming in C++ (Haven't programmed in it in 2 years, been using C and Java instead) and MatLab. If you show you have a passion to learn and have a working knowledge of the language it isn't a problem. Companies don't just throw you into the fire - if you are doing an internship, everyone will be overseeing you and helping you, you will have references (book and online), and you will be given reasonable tasks - Don't let some of these people scare you.

-Kevin

If a resume included the items and descriptions above, it wouldn't end up in the trash. If a resume included: "I have experience with MatLab, C++, C, HTML and Java", it would probably end up in the trash. It looks like an attempt at hiding inexperience. Honesty counts. An applicant should expect honesty from the company also.

Obviously, the resume of someone with school experience only is going to look quite different from one that has several years experience. Just out of school will look like above. Experienced should focus on projects associated with (and what tools/languages used).

Resume writing is an art. It's main purpose is getting that first interview. I always found that a hundred dollar bill stapled to the resume had some influence also...

So how would you list it is you DO have some pretty good experience with C++, C, Java ect?

 

[joutlaw]

Originally posted by: seemingly random

I've heard of this exact thing happening several times. As a guess, I wonder if they thought you didn't appear aggressive enough. Do you have a degree in computer science?

I suppose it's like starting out in the minors...

I suppose I didn't really click with the other managers. They all are 25+ years in the company and are pretty old school. They are also legacy programmers who basically do maintenance and support of the legacy systems. They do some PC type programming, but it is mostly VB6 which they are frantically trying to convert since it won't be supported by microsoft soon if not already now.

My boss has been here 15+ years and our group is exclusively PC. We have 1 or 2 of that can do mainframe stuff, but we all write in .Net.

I imagine I would like working in the group I am now more the others. With so many mainframe jobs they are constantly called at night by operations.

Coming from QA gave me a lot of insight. I can still mesh with my former co-workers so we feel like we are on the same team. There is usually a lot of resentment towards them from the other groups.

 

[Snapster]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Please - I have languages that I have programmed on my resume that I am not very proficient (read: MatLab). I haven't used MatLab in 2 years, and even then I had only used it briefly, it was still on my resume. My C++ knowledge isn't great (but I know C at an advanced level), and Java I am very proficient in. I also put HTML on there when I can make basic web pages and can read the language - nothing very advanced.

Honestly, if you know 1 language, you wont have a problem getting up to speed on the others. Don't lie on your resume, but don't sell yourself short. If you know and have used a language to some extent PUT IT DOWN.

Right now, I'm not using any of my Java skills, I am programming in C++ (Haven't programmed in it in 2 years, been using C and Java instead) and MatLab. If you show you have a passion to learn and have a working knowledge of the language it isn't a problem. Companies don't just throw you into the fire - if you are doing an internship, everyone will be overseeing you and helping you, you will have references (book and online), and you will be given reasonable tasks - Don't let some of these people scare you.

-Kevin

There's also being relevant:

Java
C
C++
Symbian C++
C#
LINQ
VB6
VB.Net
JSP
Python
Perl
Html
XHtml
XML
XSLT
Javascript (Ext, MooTools, JQuery)
CSS
Ruby on Rails
MFC
SQL
TSQL
MYSQL
ASP
ASP.NET
PHP
Sharepoint
Silverlight
Actionscript/2/3
WPF
WCF
SOAP
VBA

Most of what I can remember that I have worked on in the past two years alone, and not the five years previous to that. Obviously it's not 100% proficiency in everything but there's no way I can even fit most of them on my CV. As someone previously mentioned, your CV changes and develops as you get more experience, and it's the projects themselves that become a more telling factor about the person.

Originally posted by: seemingly random

Resume writing is an art. It's main purpose is getting that first interview. I always found that a hundred dollar bill stapled to the resume had some influence also...

:thumbsup:

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: Cogman
...
So how would you list it is you DO have some pretty good experience with C++, C, Java ect?

Similar to what kevin did above if you're just starting out. Any 'projects' or co-op jobs also. If the experience was gained in a personal project that's not trivial, list it. But don't make the resume too dense. For experienced developers (and I suppose project leads), the tools/langs will come out when the previous projects are described.

I guess a general guideline is to put yourself in the potential interviewer's position (assuming this is the person you might work for or with, not an hr weeder). They usually need to hire someone for a specific project. If it's not a temp position, they'll also want the new hire to be able to go on to other projects. They've spent hours sifting through resumes (sometimes it felt like it was 1 out of 1000 but this could have been a headhunter problem). They'll want people who will be a pretty good fit with their needs. They don't want to waste time (theirs or yours) in the interviews. What would you be looking for?

Fair warning: I have not dealt with resumes for years. Styles, and what grabs attention, can change. Try to differentiate but don't misrepresent yourself. Remember, not everyone is looking for your particular skills - don't take it personally.