When does a car become too computer controlled for you?

[shortylickens]

Already happened.
I grew up in Minnesota and actually learned how to drive properly in the snow. Usually with a 4WD pickup.

Got a modern Japanese sedan and when I was stationed down in the Mojave Desert it snowed. (No, really!)

The first time I went out in that thing I realized I didnt like my car making too many decisions for me. The ABS was almost constantly engaged along with whatever god-aweful traction control and everything else that comes with a modern car.
Did not like it one bit.

Went back to a chevy pickup when my Mazda got annihilated in a 10MPH crash.

 

[ViviTheMage]

ASR , anti sleep regulator

its cool, interesting too....but VERY computer controlled on my tires I guess.

when I dont drive a stick its too computer controlled.

 

[irishScott]

I want this car.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

If "-by-wire" is used on the spec sheet other than "electricity gets from the battery to components by wire"
If I can't shift gears myself
Any sort of traction control that interferes with reckless, juvenile, or otherwise blatantly male displays of vehicular prowess

- M4H

 

[Sureshot324]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: Sureshot324
Gererally I dislike anything that takes control away from the driver, such as automatic transmitions, cruise control, traction control, etc. I make an exception for ABS because although I don't like it, I know it can brake better than any human can.

Untrue. While ABS is great on uneven surfaces and in the snow, a good driver can outbrake ABS on dry pavement. It's even worse on gravel roads, where you might WANT to lock up your tires (you stop quicker by building up a mound of gravel in front of each tire).

You're right about gravel (although locking your brakes on gravel will make it impossible to stear), but good modern abs brakes will outbrake anyone on dry pavement. This is why even F1 cars used them until they were banned because they took too much skill away from the driver.

 

[Baked]

I wish I can just punch in the destination, sit back, take a nap and have the car wake me up when I get there.

 

[Journer]

i wouldnt mind a fully auto cr...but from time to time i would want full control...to have a little fun ^_^

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: Sureshot324

You're right about gravel (although locking your brakes on gravel will make it impossible to stear), but good modern abs brakes will outbrake anyone on dry pavement. This is why even F1 cars used them until they were banned because they took too much skill away from the driver.

Explain to me how an ABS system...which uses wheel sensors to determine when a wheel is decelerating at too high a rate, and pulses the brake on that wheel to prevent a full lock...can POSSIBLY do better than a skilled driver who is able to hold the brakes at the threshold of traction.

I'm not denying that for 99% of the drivers on the road, 99% of the time, ABS is good. But ice, gravel, snow, and dry pavement with a skilled driver are all situations in which you fare better without.

From wikipedia:

As noted above, maximum braking effect is achieved with the wheels on the limit of friction, whereas ABS works by releasing the brakes as the wheels break traction, so a skilled driver should be able to exceed the braking performance of an ABS system.
...

Sports cars with highly-developed braking systems without ABS have been shown to outbrake vehicles equipped with ABS. For example, the British car magazines "Evo" and "Autocar" conduct periodic tests of sports cars and compares their ability to accelerate from a standing start to 100mph and then brake to a stop ? the so-called "0-100-0" test. They find that cars without ABS (for example, cars manufactured by TVR) outperform comparable cars equipped with ABS.

 

[Locut0s]

Never, as long as you are still in control of your destination.

 

[Twista]

When it shifts itself. Wait, thats been around for years!

5-6Speed FTW!

 

[0roo0roo]

i'd prefer it drive completely for me. set gps destination and go like a super turbo lift would be the dream

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: tweakmm
When "Blue Screen of Death" becomes more than a cute acronym for a glitch.

Yup: Dash goes Blue, Indecypherable message and numbers are displayed, Controls fail to respond, careening down the highway, system won't re-boot until Memory Dump completes, Memory Dump takes for freaking ever.

After a few of those, they'll install CTRL/ALT/Delete keys on steering wheels.

 

[Sureshot324]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: Sureshot324

You're right about gravel (although locking your brakes on gravel will make it impossible to stear), but good modern abs brakes will outbrake anyone on dry pavement. This is why even F1 cars used them until they were banned because they took too much skill away from the driver.

Explain to me how an ABS system...which uses wheel sensors to determine when a wheel is decelerating at too high a rate, and pulses the brake on that wheel to prevent a full lock...can POSSIBLY do better than a skilled driver who is able to hold the brakes at the threshold of traction.

I'm not denying that for 99% of the drivers on the road, 99% of the time, ABS is good. But ice, gravel, snow, and dry pavement with a skilled driver are all situations in which you fare better without.

From wikipedia:

As noted above, maximum braking effect is achieved with the wheels on the limit of friction, whereas ABS works by releasing the brakes as the wheels break traction, so a skilled driver should be able to exceed the braking performance of an ABS system.
...

Sports cars with highly-developed braking systems without ABS have been shown to outbrake vehicles equipped with ABS. For example, the British car magazines "Evo" and "Autocar" conduct periodic tests of sports cars and compares their ability to accelerate from a standing start to 100mph and then brake to a stop ? the so-called "0-100-0" test. They find that cars without ABS (for example, cars manufactured by TVR) outperform comparable cars equipped with ABS.

It's true that in theory a skilled driver could brake exactly on the threshold and outperfom ABS, but in reality a good modern ABS braking system is so close to optimum that no one can consistently outpreform it.

 

[j00fek]

never, yet...

 

[oboeguy]

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug
never, i wish i can get a car that drives itself so i can nap during commutes.

LOL it's called mass transit.

 

[Raduque]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
On Fords you can turn the feature off. On GM cars you cannot.

For the record, I know it's not a "computer" feature, my intent was to emphasize my dislike for anything that trys to take control away from the driver.

ZV

On GMs, you can't turn it off, you say? Hmm, that's weird, because my cousin's Silverado had a 4-way switch: Off, Auto, Running lights and Head Lights. The lights only came on automatically on "Auto", go figure.

I understand what you're saying, though.

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
one of the things that bugs me the most about some cars. Headlights that turn on by themselves and don't turn off for five minutes after you exit the car. I have that "feature" on my car but I never use it because it annoys the hell out of me.

I like this feature; I'm far too lazy to turn off the lights myself. Hell most of the time, I forget my radio face plate - not a good thing to do with a $500 Alpine HU!

 

[thomsbrain]

anything beyond ABS and electronic brake distribution is too computer-controlled for me.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: Sureshot324
It's true that in theory a skilled driver could brake exactly on the threshold and outperfom ABS, but in reality a good modern ABS braking system is so close to optimum that no one can consistently outpreform it.

"In theory"? Those are real-world tests that were mentioned. A skilled driver CAN consistently outperform ABS on flat, dry pavement. And on ice. And on snow. And on gravel. A good modern ABS system is still partially locking the tires at one point in the cycle, which trades static friction for dynamic, and drives down the average coefficient of friction.

It's when we're talking about average drivers, unplanned panic stops, and suboptimal pavement with different traction available per wheel and over the length of the stop that ABS really shines.

Besides, you don't have to brake exactly on the threshold; since ABS actually starts to lock the tire before releasing it, you can brake very near the threshold, and the average coefficient of friction is higher than for the ABS system.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: Sureshot324
It's true that in theory a skilled driver could brake exactly on the threshold and outperfom ABS, but in reality a good modern ABS braking system is so close to optimum that no one can consistently outpreform it.

"In theory"? Those are real-world tests that were mentioned. A skilled driver CAN consistently outperform ABS on flat, dry pavement. And on ice. And on snow. And on gravel. A good modern ABS system is still partially locking the tires at one point in the cycle, which trades static friction for dynamic, and drives down the average coefficient of friction.

It's when we're talking about average drivers, unplanned panic stops, and suboptimal pavement with different traction available per wheel and over the length of the stop that ABS really shines.

Besides, you don't have to brake exactly on the threshold; since ABS actually starts to lock the tire before releasing it, you can brake very near the threshold, and the average coefficient of friction is higher than for the ABS system.

you kind of defeat your own arguement, if ABS only comes on after the the initial lockup, any driver good enough to always control tire lock up should never have ABS come on anyways.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: OS
you kind of defeat your own arguement, if ABS only comes on after the the initial lockup, any driver good enough to always control tire lock up should never have ABS come on anyways.

My argument is that threshold braking stops the car faster than ABS braking. This is in no way invalidated by what you posted.

Like I said, it's not that ABS is going to worsen your stopping distance on dry pavement...if you're braking hard enough to engage the ABS system, you would have been locking your tires without. The exception is on gravel, snow, etc, where ABS can indeed increase your stopping distance vs. locking the tires.

 

[Pepsi90919]

Originally posted by: vi_edit
When it lets me know that my windshield wiper fluid is low. Oh, and tire pressure sensors suck too.

You know what I find frustrating?

They can build in a sensor that sends off an ear drum piercing BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP when my damn wiper fluid gets low or my tire pressure is .00002756 pounds off but I still have to climb out of the car, pop open the hood, and pull out a freaking dipstick to check oil levels.

What gives?

you're buying the wrong car. my 2002 oldsmobile had an idiot light for low oil.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: OS
you kind of defeat your own arguement, if ABS only comes on after the the initial lockup, any driver good enough to always control tire lock up should never have ABS come on anyways.

My argument is that threshold braking stops the car faster than ABS braking. This is in no way invalidated by what you posted.

Like I said, it's not that ABS is going to worsen your stopping distance on dry pavement...if you're braking hard enough to engage the ABS system, you would have been locking your tires without. The exception is on gravel, snow, etc, where ABS can indeed increase your stopping distance vs. locking the tires.

I think part of the idea behind ABS in snow/wet/gravel is that even if it increases the braking distance, the wheel is still turning so you can still steer. This is important if you're also trying to dodge an object while braking. You can't steer with locked up wheels.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: OS
I think part of the idea behind ABS in snow/wet/gravel is that even if it increases the braking distance, the wheel is still turning so you can still steer. This is important if you're also trying to dodge an object while braking. You can't steer with locked up wheels.

I never denied that ABS is a good thing for the vast majority of drivers, with anything less than top-notch skills.

 

[Pepsi90919]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: FeuerFrei
All the brake-by-wire, steer-by-wire, gas-by-wire or whatever, systems are waaayyy too much. It's technology for technology's sake and is totally unnecessary. All those circuit-enhanced driver functions should be redundant and easily overridden by the driver. Otherwise, they may as well make a remote control and eliminate steering wheels and pedals.

electric steering and electronic throttle have certain benefits and are not totally unnecessary;

electric power steering deletes the power steering pulley off the accessory set, thus giving approximately 5 WHP. The side benefit of this is also slight fuel economy increase. Because the steering is now just driven by an electric motor, the reliability can be increased over traditional pressurized hydraulic power steering system (nothing to leak).

electronic throttle makes it easier and cheaper to incorporate cruise control and traction/stability control.

so you're saying the electric power steering creates no parasitic draw? the electricity to drive it comes out of thin air?

 

[Pepsi90919]

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
When it turns the headlights on automatically.

ZV

That's not a computer feature - that's just a light sensor, and you can even bypass it using the switch. My cousins truck has this.

try it on a GM vehicle that's not in Park.