When do you think the US will invade iraq? (and some questions about Desert Storm)

[Moonbeam]

Hehe, ToBeMe, Quite a demonstration of how little you care. Oh man, You constantly misinterpreted and misapplied everything i said and I tried over and over to clarify where you went south. Seems to me I became condescending and holier than thou about the time you got defensive and uncomfortable. Now calling me a peacenik is an attempt to put me down and garner the support of all those who have a knee jerk negative reaction to that term. In short, a cheap shot. Ready fire aim, go right ahead. 😀 Was I there? Irrelavent, nothing about what I said requires first hand witnessing. 5 to 1 in your favor. Also irrelivant. 20% of the population against you is something no polititian ever ignores. You also pulled the numbers out of your a.., hat. You in turn are making statements about the mental state of Bush and the General. You were not in their minds to know. And as to intimidating somebody, if you don't want to hear from me, don't try to take my posts apart with stuff like:

"Sorry, but you have got to be kidding..............if that is the case, that what we did there was wrong, I suppose you should also implicate many battles in WWII including Normandy where men were lost by the thousands and literaly "picked off" on the beaches, or many of the battles of WWI, the Civil War, and the Revolutionary War..........................I suppose it may have been preffered for us to lose a bunch of men???? People whom have not been there seem able to only see things from a point of view which is to their liking................problem is, many times it hurts and damages the facts of the situation as it really was.............."

Hey post away, but expect to be intimidated, if by intimidated you mean being shown you're blowing smoke.

Unlike you, I do care.

 

[alexruiz]

AmusedOne said it best in another thread:

And the Indians themselves weren't saints either. The Euros simply had better technology. Do you honestly think it would have been any different were the tables turned and a post-iron age Aztec culture discovered a pre-bronze age Europe?

Well, I would love to read that thread. I made a search but I couldn't find it. I am from Mexico, and it is unbeliavable the amunt of cr*p that is believed about that topic. Link me please to that thread.

 

[Red Dawn]

Right now at this instant would be a good time because Farakan is visiting and we can kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

 

[Moonbeam]

Actually, PastodDon your point is irrelevant too.

Here are a couple of quotes from the web, the second of which is a right winged pro war opinion lamenting the reason we stopped the Gulf War early. They don't seem to have a problem with facts.

"But the decision to end the war was controversial. Military strategists had to weigh the consequences of realizing their objectives of the war mission against the possibility that Americans would turn against the conflict if prolonged. The U.S. decision to accept the terms of cease-fire is still being debated today. "

"Even good press can have unintended consequences. During the 100-hour ground offensive of the Gulf War the press was gushing optimism and good news. As Iraqi military resistance in Kuwait collapsed, the only highway from Kuwait to Iraq became jammed with military and civilian vehicles laden with plunder from the Iraqi sack of Kuwait City. This highway was bombed, and thousands of fleeing Iraqis were killed and wounded. Scenes of destruction from this "Highway of Death" were flashed by news services around the world. As coalition forces maneuvered to cut off this last avenue of retreat, the U.S. president was pressured to end the carnage. TV screens showed horrific scenes of hundreds of dismembered and still steaming burned bodies. The press dutifully reported that many civilians were also caught in these attacks. It all seemed so unfair, we were killing Iraqi's by the hundreds with absolutely no American casualties. World and American public opinion concluded that this was an unnecessary massacre. The president ordered the cessation of offensive military operations before the "Highway of Death" could be completely closed off. While the Iraqis and the Allies negotiated, the remaining Iraqi forces, including intact units of the elite Iraqi Republican Guard streamed out of Kuwait. Once again, American public opinion forced the end of a war. Who amongst us now wishes that we had not finished off the Republican Guard while we had the chance. "

 

[Moonbeam]

alexruiz, you can find a thread with a direct quote by clicking on search below the navigation box and picking a key word like Aztec, put it in search phrase, choose title of body, the forum you want to search and click search. It's in the Why are Europeans so offended by US patriotism? thread which you can likk directly to from there.

 

[ToBeMe]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Hehe, ToBeMe, Quite a demonstration of how little you care. Oh man, You constantly misinterpreted and misapplied everything i said and I tried over and over to clarify where you went south. Seems to me I became condescending and holier than thou about the time you got defensive and uncomfortable. Now calling me a peacenik is an attempt to put me down and garner the support of all those who have a knee jerk negative reaction to that term. In short, a cheap shot. Ready fire aim, go right ahead. 😀 Was I there? Irrelavent, nothing about what I said requires first hand witnessing. 5 to 1 in your favor. Also irrelivant. 20% of the population against you is something no polititian ever ignores. You also pulled the numbers out of your a.., hat. You in turn are making statements about the mental state of Bush and the General. You were not in their minds to know. And as to intimidating somebody, if you don't want to hear from me, don't try to take my posts apart with stuff like:

"Sorry, but you have got to be kidding..............if that is the case, that what we did there was wrong, I suppose you should also implicate many battles in WWII including Normandy where men were lost by the thousands and literaly "picked off" on the beaches, or many of the battles of WWI, the Civil War, and the Revolutionary War..........................I suppose it may have been preffered for us to lose a bunch of men???? People whom have not been there seem able to only see things from a point of view which is to their liking................problem is, many times it hurts and damages the facts of the situation as it really was.............."

Hey post away, but expect to be intimidated, if by intimidated you mean being shown you're blowing smoke.

Unlike you, I do care.

You make me laugh!🙂 Your the one whom doesn't "care", that's blatently obvious, and, you don't know half the crap you like to make people believe you do!😉 All you like to do is take peoples comments and opinions and twist them for your own pleasure. You demonstrate that especially as it concerns matters such as these. I was trying to be polite and have a discussion, then, you reply with your usual comments which always protray yourself as being the almighty pervayer of knowledge. Most of the time people just blow it off because most know "that's just Moonbeam" LOL! In this case though, I didn't because honestly, you don't have a clue in this subject, and I'm not defensive, you're the one whom always has to be right. After you started spouting off, I just wanted to see if I could "rattle you cage"..............and, I did..........😉

You can blow all the smoke and mirrors BS on this subject you want, I nor many others will buy your BS. You apparently don't like being labeled a "peacenik" well, if you don't like the label, don't act the part. And honestly, surely you can do better than "Was I there?" Irrelevant"...............that's not like you...........of course it would make a difference! Stop lying to yourself! What you have been IMPLYING would definately make a difference if you had seen it first hand because you would know exactly what took place regardless of all the BS stories that have been written and fabricated to make a point for someones agenda.

As for numbers............don't preach to me about where I pulled numbers.........you yourself have a pretty good mastery of that and my numbers as they pertain to this are much closer to reallity than any provided by you. I didn't have to be in either Gen Schwarzkopf's or then Pres. Bush's mind to know what I said in regards to them either...........it's a matter of public fact relayed by the former president, and in the book written by Gen. Schwarzkopf!😉 The plain fact is, the only way we were going into Baghdad is if the Iraqis fought us into the city. Yes, President Bush and Gen. Schwarzkopf did believe it was a move which needed to be done to prevent further problems with Saddam, but, the objectives were clearly drawn and unless fighting drug us there, it was not going to happen and that, my friend, was a fact before the campaign began!

Hey Moon........Beamerman.......man..........I will "post away" and no, the likes of you will never intimidate me........frankly, I see right through you and you've got nothing...............you have the art of writing and phsyching people out with your use of the english language, but, beyond that, you have nothing on this subject and it shows.............no life expierience in it and no way to relate to what actually goes on in the lives and minds of those whom live or have lived it. You see yourself as above most people and figure if you can't always dazzle them with brilliance, you'll baffle them with BS, but, as I'm sure you've found out before, it doesn't always work with everyone does it????????😉 Go on now, fire off another one of your ramblings..........you're not going to bother me............ 😎

 

[Moonbeam]

Hey look, ToBeMe, the only point I made was that a concern for what the American people were feeling about the news comming about the slaughter on the Highway of Death was a factor in our not continuing to get Sadam. I provided a quote from a right wing source on the web saying the same thing, saying they were all pissed off about it. That was all I claimed. Can you see that I didn't even have to be alive at the time for my claim to to true. I provided a second with the same general theme. I'm sure there are lots more because it was a fact. All those complements you paid me were really nice. I had no idea I was so brilliant and all. The country has been VietNamized and we're skidisn about wars. Politicians have to take it into account and worry about it. I just think these things are true. I'm sorry if you get upset when you challenge them as facts and I defend them. I care about the truth, but it also makes me sad that you're upset. I know i don't bother you. But it bothers me because when you say it doesn't bother you I think you're full of it. What is the big deal. What happened on that Highway had consequences. How does that ruin your day. How does your opinion that it didn't make you some sort of inferior toad in comparison to my brilliance? 😀 I went out on the web to back up my contention and did pretty well. One reason, just maybe, why I'm so FORMIDABLE here is just that I'm right. I have been wrong. I didn't die. My challenges were to your arguments, not to you. You're cool.

 

[Bulk Beef]

So what WAS your reaction to the Highway 8 episode?

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Right now at this instant would be a good time because Farakan is visiting and we can kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

Absofreakinlutely.

 

[rickn]

I don't think we will attack anytime soon. I think it will happen when everyone leasts expects it. Certainly will not happen during the summertime. Iraq is an oven. All we need is Kuwait and Turkey to launch an assault, both of which will give us support. Iran of course will offer not support, and has publically said they do not support any attack on Iraq. This of course after they fought an 8yr war with them, in which Iraq literally leveled many Iranian cities and towns along the Iran/Iraq border.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: rickn
I don't think we will attack anytime soon. I think it will happen when everyone leasts expects it. Certainly will not happen during the summertime. Iraq is an oven. All we need is Kuwait and Turkey to launch an assault, both of which will give us support. Iran of course will offer not support, and has publically said they do not support any attack on Iraq. This of course after they fought an 8yr war with them, in which Iraq literally leveled many Iranian cities and towns along the Iran/Iraq border.

They said we could not deal with the afgan winter..
They said we could not run the abrams thru the desert to complete the left hook to flank Saddam the first time...

Be careful of what you think cant be done...

 

[rickn]

I never said it could not be done. It just isn't the best conditions to do it. And Afghanistan is no Iraq. Iraq has had 10 yrs to rebuild, with lots of help from the Chinese.

 

[ToBeMe]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Hey look, ToBeMe, the only point I made was that a concern for what the American people were feeling about the news comming about the slaughter on the Highway of Death was a factor in our not continuing to get Sadam. I provided a quote from a right wing source on the web saying the same thing, saying they were all pissed off about it. That was all I claimed. Can you see that I didn't even have to be alive at the time for my claim to to true. I provided a second with the same general theme. I'm sure there are lots more because it was a fact. All those complements you paid me were really nice. I had no idea I was so brilliant and all. The country has been VietNamized and we're skidisn about wars. Politicians have to take it into account and worry about it. I just think these things are true. I'm sorry if you get upset when you challenge them as facts and I defend them. I care about the truth, but it also makes me sad that you're upset. I know i don't bother you. But it bothers me because when you say it doesn't bother you I think you're full of it. What is the big deal. What happened on that Highway had consequences. How does that ruin your day. How does your opinion that it didn't make you some sort of inferior toad in comparison to my brilliance? 😀 I went out on the web to back up my contention and did pretty well. One reason, just maybe, why I'm so FORMIDABLE here is just that I'm right. I have been wrong. I didn't die. My challenges were to your arguments, not to you. You're cool.

LOL! I just don't quite see why you continue to think I'm "upset"...........I just came back in from sitting out by the pool watching my boys swim and goofing off with them............no worries here mate...........🙂 What happened on that highway happened alright, the question remains as to whose version is correct. I suppose if the only side you have seen is the carnage left behind by warfare on that highway, your argument could be valid. Problem is, what of the carnage left in the wake of the Iraqi Rep. Guard against the Kuwaiti men, women, children and the property of Kuwait and its citizens? They are available too you know...........such as this exerpt from the "Journal Of International Law"...........

Numerous incidents of women raped in international armed conflicts can be cited to illustrate this point. During the August 1990 invasion of Kuwait it is estimated that at least 10,000 Kuwaiti women and children were raped by Iraqi soldiers.

To be honest, I didn't go "find a link" or a "quote" simply because we both know there are two versions to this, and most occurances. Now, you state how credible your sources are and you seem happy with them, while failing to even notice mine which, I might say, are even more credible IMHO..........I made reference to what the ex president himself has stated in public speeches, and also to what is written in a book written by General Schwarzkopf himself..........I also made reference to the pre-laid objectives of the Gulf War or Desert Storm whichever you prefer, which are also available easily to anyone through a search.............what better source than the people who were in charge and made the descions?😉 What this boils down to is, you firmly believe your sources and opinions, and I mine. I firmly believe the argument I have made, and have also backed it up with the words both written and oral of the men whom made the decsions at the time.

You're right though, it's all good...............I simply have subjects that are near to me and I will defend my stance on these until proven wrong and this is one of them...........😉

 

[Moonbeam]

charrison, the part I like in rickin's post was, 'it will happen when everyone least expects it, but not in the summer time". Hehe

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: rickn
I never said it could not be done. It just isn't the best conditions to do it. And Afghanistan is no Iraq. Iraq has had 10 yrs to rebuild, with lots of help from the Chinese.

And those new chinese air defences and been regulary destroyed.


They have had a chance to rebuild but our military is more advanced(and smaller) than it was 10 years ago.

 

[rickn]

And those new chinese air defences and been regulary destroyed

the ones that we know of

 

[rickn]

charrison, the part I like in rickin's post was, 'it will happen when everyone least expects it, but not in the summer time". Hehe

that was more in reference to all the leaks, timeframe discussions. i think they are intentional leaks, nobody knows when we will attack. All the warmongering rhetoric gets Iraq scared and talking. We may never attack them

 

[wQuay]

All of you are still thinking in terms of traditional warfare. Saddam tried to fight us head on, and got his butt kicked. If we invade again, he'll respond with chemical and biological strikes on Israel, and terrorist attacks in the Unites States. The war won't be waged against American soldiers, but civilians.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: rickn

And those new chinese air defences and been regulary destroyed

the ones that we know of

If they turn them on, we know about them.

 

[Moonbeam]

Well I guess the problem ToBeMe is that you seem to think that by my calling what happened a massacre and saying it was influential in cutting short the war that somehow equates to criticism of the US and support of the Elite Guard. I never said or implied that. I have no sympathy for barbarians, murderers or rapists at all. They pretty much got what they gave. But I'm not a butcher either. We were at war and found ourselves so successful that it became more a slaughter than a noble victory in the eyes of many people. Doesn't make us bad, but I think it made us back off. It wasn't honerable and I think we stopped because we are rather decent, especially in victory. So my comments were dirrected at cause and effect. Bottom line though, we were over there because of oil not because Sadam is a bad guy. That part ain't too noble when you're not hauling ass to develope alternative energy sources as a National Defense priority.

 

[Scipionix]

Originally posted by: wQuay
All of you are still thinking in terms of traditional warfare. Saddam tried to fight us head on, and got his butt kicked. If we invade again, he'll respond with chemical and biological strikes on Israel, and terrorist attacks in the Unites States. The war won't be waged against American soldiers, but civilians.

Israel would not sit out if that happened.

 

[ToBeMe]

Monnbeam................If you look, in my very first post I agree with what you just stated...............our main reason for being there was to protect our intrests in the region...............oil.................Now, apart from that, i also agree with what you just said.............they reaped what they sewed........as I stated, I can also see how ones view could be that of a "massacre" if the only pictures one viewed were those of that highway............but, those were only one view of the whole picture of what took place. I'll give a little.........*perhaps* the overwhelming success played a small part of the timing, but, we were done anyway because the objectives had been met and there was pressure mainly on that point coming from the UN..............They made it blatently clear that if we went forward into Baghdad we would be proceeding on our own and without UN support...........

 

[wQuay]

Israel would not sit out if that happened.

Well, duh. Iraq would get nuked. Which wouldn't even solve the problem, if they've distributed anthrax spores to Islamic militants around the world.

 

[vash]

We will not and I repeat, will NOT invade the country of Iraq with the general "leaked" media information of 200,000+ troops of 400,000+ troops. Its not going to happen, without a doubt.

If *we* REALLY wanted to topple Saddam, it wouldn't be through a lot of men, etc. It would be a series of small insertions into the country to take out the main leadership. Bringing in that many people is just going to take too long to be effective and definitely wouldn't be a surprise (giving Saddam time to hide). If we struck with a few hundred people, at one time, we have a very good chance of taking him out of power vs. waiting.

vash

 

[rickn]

Originally posted by: vash
We will not and I repeat, will NOT invade the country of Iraq with the general "leaked" media information of 200,000+ troops of 400,000+ troops. Its not going to happen, without a doubt.

If *we* REALLY wanted to topple Saddam, it wouldn't be through a lot of men, etc. It would be a series of small insertions into the country to take out the main leadership. Bringing in that many people is just going to take too long to be effective and definitely wouldn't be a surprise (giving Saddam time to hide). If we struck with a few hundred people, at one time, we have a very good chance of taking him out of power vs. waiting.

vash

not to mention time to mobilize his arsenal. They are very effective at hiding their scuds. Saddam will whip out WMD this time around. aint no place for him to go, even if that means killing every Iraqi citizen in the process. He's a nut job.