When do you think Nvidia and/or AMD/ATi will change to 3 slot blower designs?

[24601]

As we have seen, in the last 3 years there has been relative stagnation in the Video Card space.

Part of this is the slow pace of semiconductor process advance.

The other part is that over time Video Cards have gone to higher and higher power points to achieve higher than otherwise advances in compute speed.

In the last 3 years the highest Nvidia and AMD have been willing to go is 250w soft limit 300w hard limit on their reference single gpu cards.

As we have seen this is mostly due to their 2-slot reference blower cooling solution's lack of ability to scale higher than 300w TDP @ 80c.

Any likely increase in TDP of reference cards over 300w will have to be met with reference solutions that are deemed good enough and cheap enough to accommodate the increased heat dissipation requirement.

One obvious way for them to increase TDP is to implement 2-slot open air systems, which would restrict their use in Crossfire/SLI implementations as well as their use in small form factor cases and cases with inferior air-flow.

The other obvious way for them to increase TDP is to implement 3-slot blower systems with either single or double opening.
(double opening like as pictured here:
http://www.dvhardware.net/news/2012/his_radeon_hd_7950_iceq.jpg
http://www.hisdigital.com/UserFiles/product/H795QT3G2M_01_1600.jpg )

A triple slot solution would likely double or more than double exhaust area at the back of the card, the most limiting restriction on blower performance.

 

[ShintaiDK]

I cant see it happening. Specially not with the increased forus on performance/watt.

The only 3 slots designs I see will be custom/limited like today.

 

[seitur]

Obvious trend is about building smaller machines, even amonst many enthusiasts, semi-entusiasts and other power users.

3 slot reference cooling system would not make sense.

 

[Teizo]

Obvious trend is about building smaller machines, even amonst many enthusiasts, semi-entusiasts and other power users.

3 slot reference cooling system would not make sense.

^This. MicroATX and mITX are on the rise in gaming solutions as no one really needs all the extra 'stuff' in a big pc since cpu's and gpu's are getting more and more efficient. Gaming PC's are becoming more and more sized just like consoles (just more powerful).

 

[24601]

I cant see it happening. Specially not with the increased forus on performance/watt.

The only 3 slots designs I see will be custom/limited like today.

Desktop users of any kind still don't care very much about performance/watt though, at least at the high end.

Unless Nvidia and AMD/ATi are actually colluding (the last 3 years really make it seem like that is the case), the first to a 3 slot blower reference solution will have the halo crown basically guaranteed assuming they have roughly equivalent performance per watt solutions.

Obvious trend is about building smaller machines, even amonst many enthusiasts, semi-entusiasts and other power users.

3 slot reference cooling system would not make sense.

^This. MicroATX and mITX are on the rise in gaming solutions as no one really needs all the extra 'stuff' in a big pc since cpu's and gpu's are getting more and more efficient. Gaming PC's are becoming more and more sized just like consoles (just more powerful).

A 3 slot reference cooling system would not impinge on any of that progress as long as the cases used have at least 3 expansion slots open to the outside world.
That's the beauty of blowers, as long as you have sufficient airflow to feed into the intakes (quite easy to do), it won't heat up your case by a significant amount.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Desktop users of any kind still don't care very much about performance/watt though, at least at the high end.

Unless Nvidia and AMD/ATi are actually colluding (the last 3 years really make it seem like that is the case), the first to a 3 slot blower reference solution will have the halo crown basically guaranteed assuming they have roughly equivalent performance per watt solutions.

The trend shows otherwise.

Not to mention the noise and room climate issues the higher TDP brings.

 

[24601]

The trend shows otherwise.

Not to mention the noise and room climate issues the higher TDP brings.

The only reason high end users aren't using the intel extreme platforms with 130-150w TDP is because of price (and obsolescence), not really the power use directly.

But yes I concede on the room climate issues, however people in first world countries should be able to afford air conditioners.

 

[ShintaiDK]

The only reason high end users aren't using the intel extreme platforms with 130-150w TDP is because of price (and obsolescence), not really the power use directly.

Yet they should buy 600-1000$ GFX cards and air conditioners? And wouldnt they just be performance users instead of high end if they dont buy it?

But yes I concede on the room climate issues, however people in first world countries should be able to afford air conditioners.

Majority of the first world dont use air conditioners. Because they know how to build proper insulated homes.

 

[Arkadrel]

I cant see it happening. Specially not with the increased forus on performance/watt.

The only 3 slots designs I see will be custom/limited like today.

^ this.

Its too much, 3 slot designs are for crazy power sucking cards.
Hopefully the industry doesnt go that way.

 

[blackened23]

Short answer: No.

Long answer: The PC form factors are getting smaller, not larger. There is absolutely no way that a reference design would incorporate 3 slot cooling. Even aftermarket coolers are going away from that mentality as well - starting with the GTX 670, asus switched from triple slot to double slot with the DC2.

Keep in mind that small MATX and mITX form factors are very popular, and becoming more so each passing day. With that in mind, I don't see anyone focusing on 3 slot cooling solutions.

 

[PrincessFrosty]

What I want to see is a basic PCI-E bridge card that simply exposes the PCI-E bus to the rear of the case, then a cable run to a dedicated graphics box which contains a GPU, with its own dedicated power system + kettle lead.

I'm happy to let the power and heat requirements spill over what traditional PC cases are capable of handling.

 

[24601]

Yet they should buy 600-1000$ GFX cards and air conditioners? And wouldnt they just be performance users instead of high end if they dont buy it?



Majority of the first world dont use air conditioners. Because they know how to build proper insulated homes.

Considering the $300 7970 GHz already ran over the acceptable limit of AMD's stock blower solution, I think the use of 3 slot reference blowers would not be limited to $600-1000 cards.

Also I apologize for using the term "high-end user" and "performance conscious user" interchangeably. The two have been inextricably links until recently (intel's rebranded server chips on slower cadence than desktop/laptop chips).

 

[thilanliyan]

I hope it stays at 2 slots. My case is tight as it is lol.

 

[24601]

The main problem is that chips at the 20nm node will only be ~30% more powerful assuming the same mm^2, same architecture, and same power limit.

We already saw the utter stagnation at the 28nm node. For people to get excited about advances in desktop graphics there would need to be more advance than that.

Even if we assume 50% (instead of 30%) increased performance from architecture wizardry it is still fairly meager advance compared to the time domain.

Short answer: No.

Long answer: The PC form factors are getting smaller, not larger. There is absolutely no way that a reference design would incorporate 3 slot cooling. Even aftermarket coolers are going away from that mentality as well - starting with the GTX 670, asus switched from triple slot to double slot with the DC2.

Keep in mind that small MATX and mITX form factors are very popular, and becoming more so each passing day. With that in mind, I don't see anyone focusing on 3 slot cooling solutions.

As answered in a previous post, this should be no actual problem, especially for Matx cases. MITX cases with 3+ expansion slots to the outside world would also have no trouble with this change.

 

[ShintaiDK]

The main problem is that chips at the 20nm node will only be ~30% more powerful assuming the same mm^2, same architecture, and same power limit.

We already saw the utter stagnation at the 28nm node. For people to get excited about advances in desktop graphics there would need to be more advance than that.

Even if we assume 50% (instead of 30%) increased performance from architecture wizardry it is still fairly meager advance compared to the time domain.

You really think a 3 slot cooler and 450W will fix that? Performance dont scale well with power consumption. You use alot of power to gain a little more performance. Just look how bad it goes for AMD and nVidia in power consumption when the clock is raised with 50Mhz, or around 5%.

Thats weighted against TCO, cost of components, noise, heat etc.

 

[24601]

You really think a 3 slot cooler and 450W will fix that? Performance dont scale well with power consumption. You use alot of power to gain alittle performance.

It would allow the large mm^2 chips to use more of their useful range.

Cards with chips like the 780 can already gain very linear advances in performance up to 300-350w TDP, as shown by the EVGA Classified and the MSI Lightning.

A card (gpu/chip) with a beefier front end (ie. a card with more emphases on gaming[basically meaning more of the mm^2 dedicated to gaming]) than the GK110 compute cards would presumably see a very linear gain to even higher TDPs.

 

[etrin]

as soon as we see something from 3rd party without reference build.
7970 asus is only a 2.9999 slot lol

 

[ShintaiDK]

It would allow the large mm^2 chips to use more of their useful range.

Cards with chips like the 780 can already gain very linear advances in performance up to 300-350w TDP, as shown by the EVGA Classified and the MSI Lightning.

A card (gpu/chip) with a beefier front end (ie. a card with more emphases on gaming) than the GK110 compute cards would presumably see a very linear gain to even higher TDPs.

Handpicked chips will always perform abit better.

 

[24601]

Handpicked chips...

If the supposedly handpicked chips are only slightly more expensive than the stock chips then the economics are still viable for a supposed 3-slot reference solution.

 

[BrightCandle]

There is also the requirement in the PCI-E spec that cards don't exceed 300W in total. There is thus very little need for 3 slot coolers when the spec is specifically limiting the power consumption such that a 2 slot cooler can do the job.

I also suspect after reviewers (and customers) took exception to high noise and big coolers over the last few generations that they want cards that are more balanced in their power consumption to achieve smaller and quieter. That peace comes from cards that around 225W or below apparently with today's cooling technology so the firms are choosing to only go above that in extreme cases or with highly expensive coolers. Its all a cost/performance/noise trade off. 3 slot coolers don't really change the situation much.

 

[24601]

There is also the requirement in the PCI-E spec that cards don't exceed 300W in total. There is thus very little need for 3 slot coolers when the spec is specifically limiting the power consumption such that a 2 slot cooler can do the job.

I also suspect after reviewers (and customers) took exception to high noise and big coolers over the last few generations that they want cards that are more balanced in their power consumption to achieve smaller and quieter. That peace comes from cards that around 225W or below apparently with today's cooling technology so the firms are choosing to only go above that in extreme cases or with highly expensive coolers. Its all a cost/performance/noise trade off. 3 slot coolers don't really change the situation much.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express#Power

Power

All sizes of ×4 and ×8 PCI Express cards are allowed a maximum power consumption of 25 W. All ×1 cards are initially 10 W; full-height cards may configure themselves as 'high-power' to reach 25 W, while half-height ×1 cards are fixed at 10 W. All sizes of ×16 cards are initially 25 W; like ×1 cards, half-height cards are limited to this number while full-height cards may increase their power after configuration. They can use up to 75 W (3.3 V/3 A + 12 V/5.5 A), though the specification demands that the higher-power configuration be used for graphics cards only, while cards of other purposes are to remain at 25 W.[10][11] Optional connectors add 75 W (6-pin) and/or 150 W (8-pin) power for up to 525 W total (75 W + 3×150 W).[12]

False

 

[ShintaiDK]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI_Express#Power



False

Just because its on the wiki doesnt mean its right:
http://www.pcisig.com/specifications/pciexpress/high_power_graphics/

And look at their source. The Devil 7990. Its hard to take anything on the Wiki seriously.

 

[24601]

Just because its on the wiki doesnt mean its right:
http://www.pcisig.com/specifications/pciexpress/high_power_graphics/

And look at their source. The Devil 7990. Its hard to take anything on the Wiki seriously.

Out of spec probably just means they won't use it in servers. Wouldn't stop them selling the cards for any other use.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Talking about the Devil 7990 3 slot. It overheated funny enough.

So maybe 4 slot coolers?

 

[24601]

Talking about the Devil 7990 3 slot. It overheated funny enough.

So maybe 4 slot coolers?

It was also 500-600W TDP with a subpar cooling setup.

the 7990 reference that came later with a clamped 300-375w TDP even had trouble with a similar cooling setup.

Open air designs don't scale as well as blower designs because the case you use can only handle so much heat dumped into it.