When did the ability to take care of yourself perish?

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: MagnusTheBrewer

Originally posted by: sandorski

We have been dependent on Technology for Millenia. The PC is just another step along the evolutionary path. It is for the better though as each step removes Inefficincies that allow us to Progress further. We didn't mess up by becoming reliant on Technology, but we are possibly messing up by getting all antsy about that reliance. Luditism is fear over the loss of "self-reliance".

That is incorrect. We have not been dependent on technology for millennia. During as recent a time as the industrial revolution within our own country, there were alternatives to the new technology. The alternatives may have been more inefficient or costlier in the long run but, they existed and a sudden halt in the newer technology would not have caused a total meltdown in society.

Tell me what the result would be in today's society if for whatever reason, swift communication (cell phones, computers, internet) plastics or petroleum based chemicals were to disappear for even as brief a time as 6 months?

It would not be the lack of a specific technology that would cause all the damage, it would be the inability of most people to adapt within a short enough time to prevent widespread famine, looting and, disease that would kill millions.

That's just a degree of lack of "Self-Reliance" though.

 

[StageLeft]

Speciality of labor combined with the fact that most of us can do very little of merit and still go through life (a blessed society from a food/housing perspective) means that grown adults who ostensibly look capable are in fact shells of real men. They can turn the microwave on, but change their oil? Paint their deck? Plant a tree in their backyard, are you kidding? Of course not. Who would have taught them that? Their father who was equally helpless, like a baby in a man's body?

Thank God for us we have the interwebs and can catch up on a shortchanged youth.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Speciality of labor combined with the fact that most of us can do very little of merit and still go through life (a blessed society from a food/housing perspective) means that grown adults who ostensibly look capable are in fact shells of real men. They can turn the microwave on, but change their oil? Paint their deck? Plant a tree in their backyard, are you kidding? Of course not. Who would have taught them that? Their father who was equally helpless, like a baby in a man's body?

Thank God for us we have the interwebs and can catch up on a shortchanged youth.

This gets back to the specialization comments above. I honestly don't have the slightest clue how to change the oil on my truck, but I can handle any part of the air intake system on the engine. I don't know how to do more than remove a tire but I am familiar with the two ABS related sensors, their function, and diagnosis of problems. So does that make me a clueless noob when it comes to cars (not a real man) or someone who has a fair amount of knowledge (a real man)? And yes, I actually did learn all of it on the internet.

 

[KDOG]

That pussification of the western male piece was BRILLIANT. It really is true.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: KDOG
That pussification of the western male piece was BRILLIANT. It really is true.

While a little over the top, the points are very true. The pussification continues.

 

[Joemonkey]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Speciality of labor combined with the fact that most of us can do very little of merit and still go through life (a blessed society from a food/housing perspective) means that grown adults who ostensibly look capable are in fact shells of real men. They can turn the microwave on, but change their oil? Paint their deck? Plant a tree in their backyard, are you kidding? Of course not. Who would have taught them that? Their father who was equally helpless, like a baby in a man's body?

Thank God for us we have the interwebs and can catch up on a shortchanged youth.

This gets back to the specialization comments above. I honestly don't have the slightest clue how to change the oil on my truck, but I can handle any part of the air intake system on the engine. I don't know how to do more than remove a tire but I am familiar with the two ABS related sensors, their function, and diagnosis of problems. So does that make me a clueless noob when it comes to cars (not a real man) or someone who has a fair amount of knowledge (a real man)? And yes, I actually did learn all of it on the internet.

we're all prisoners to our environment. In the past people did shit because they HAD TO in order to survive. Hell, there's a big "work from home" movement right now at work which makes it even worse. People can sit at a computer in their home, "work" all day from home, get direct deposit into their bank, then go pay for food at the grocery store with their debit card. All they "have" to do is wake up, push buttons, drive to the store, buy food, rinse and repeat. It really is like the Jetsons...

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Joemonkey

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Speciality of labor combined with the fact that most of us can do very little of merit and still go through life (a blessed society from a food/housing perspective) means that grown adults who ostensibly look capable are in fact shells of real men. They can turn the microwave on, but change their oil? Paint their deck? Plant a tree in their backyard, are you kidding? Of course not. Who would have taught them that? Their father who was equally helpless, like a baby in a man's body?

Thank God for us we have the interwebs and can catch up on a shortchanged youth.

This gets back to the specialization comments above. I honestly don't have the slightest clue how to change the oil on my truck, but I can handle any part of the air intake system on the engine. I don't know how to do more than remove a tire but I am familiar with the two ABS related sensors, their function, and diagnosis of problems. So does that make me a clueless noob when it comes to cars (not a real man) or someone who has a fair amount of knowledge (a real man)? And yes, I actually did learn all of it on the internet.

we're all prisoners to our environment. In the past people did shit because they HAD TO in order to survive. Hell, there's a big "work from home" movement right now at work which makes it even worse. People can sit at a computer in their home, "work" all day from home, get direct deposit into their bank, then go pay for food at the grocery store with their debit card. All they "have" to do is wake up, push buttons, drive to the store, buy food, rinse and repeat. It really is like the Jetsons...

Idiocracy will be the epitome of Living. Eating from a bucket while sitting in a comode lazy boy watching Oww My Balls...can't wait.

 

[Fenixgoon]

specialization also allows us to build everything we see today, from cars to airplanes to all of the incredible buildings. specialization is required in order to advanced from simple agriculture to a technically advanced society.

 

[TridenT]

Originally posted by: HardTech
We have become a nation of women.

Plagiarize more.

http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/essays/41/

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
specialization also allows us to build everything we see today, from cars to airplanes to all of the incredible buildings. specialization is required in order to advanced from simple agriculture to a technically advanced society.

You can be really really good at one thing, and still be able to do most everything else acceptably well. Being a theoretical physicist doesn't mean you can't change the oil in your car. Being a surgeon doesn't mean you can't replace the pilot light in your water heater. Being an architect doesn't mean you can't cook a decent meal from scratch. It's not the idea of specialization itself that I find distasteful, it's the idea that once specialized, you can't do anything else.

When I replaced my front door I didn't stop to think whether I'd been taught how or not. I saw that the front door needed replacing so I procured a new one and installed it. When I needed to replace the floor in my mom's bathroom it didn't even occur to me that I couldn't do it, even though I'd never done it before. No one showed me how to replace the oil in my car. All I knew was that such a thing was possible, so I set out to do it. No one taught me how to build computers. I simply disassembled the first Packard Bell my parents bought in junior high and saw how the thing fit together. The next computer I owned was one I built.

My grandfather was no carpenter, but he built two rooms onto his house and two sheds behind it. He was no machinist, but he constructed practically every metal implement he needed in the process. He was no plumber, but he installed the plumbing in all of it.

Productive people are naturally well rounded. They can't help it. They see that something needs doing and they do it, regardless of whether they've been to school for it or not.

 

[TridenT]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
specialization also allows us to build everything we see today, from cars to airplanes to all of the incredible buildings. specialization is required in order to advanced from simple agriculture to a technically advanced society.

You can be really really good at one thing, and still be able to do most everything else acceptably well. Being a theoretical physicist doesn't mean you can't change the oil in your car. Being a surgeon doesn't mean you can't replace the pilot light in your water heater. Being an architect doesn't mean you can't cook a decent meal from scratch. It's not the idea of specialization itself that I find distasteful, it's the idea that once specialized, you can't do anything else.

When I replaced my front door I didn't stop to think whether I'd been taught how or not. I saw that the front door needed replacing so I procured a new one and installed it. When I needed to replace the floor in my mom's bathroom it didn't even occur to me that I couldn't do it, even though I'd never done it before. No one showed me how to replace the oil in my car. All I knew was that such a thing was possible, so I set out to do it. No one taught me how to build computers. I simply disassembled the first Packard Bell my parents bought in junior high and saw how the thing fit together. The next computer I owned was one I built.

My grandfather was no carpenter, but he built two rooms onto his house and two sheds behind it. He was no machinist, but he constructed practically every metal implement he needed in the process. He was no plumber, but he installed the plumbing in all of it.

Productive people are naturally well rounded. They can't help it. They see that something needs doing and they do it, regardless of whether they've been to school for it or not.

Depends on what you consider productive.

You might not realize that many people who are in very advanced fields are more dedicated to their work than anything else in their lives. That can mean they are learning more and more about their field because there is so much to learn and are just trying to keep up.

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
Depends on what you consider productive.

You might not realize that many people who are in very advanced fields are more dedicated to their work than anything else in their lives. That can mean they are learning more and more about their field because there is so much to learn and are just trying to keep up.

I submit that there are not "many" people in such advanced fields that they cannot pick up additional skills besides those necessary for their career. I think such people do exist, but for the purposes of this discussion they are irrelevant because they make up such a small minority. No, we're talking mostly about 9-5 office workers who generally have lots of free time for side activities. Somehow "many" of these types are helpless in the face of problems that they've never seen before. I guess they simply don't challenge themselves enough with new things to have confidence in their abilities. The IT guys might feel confident working on their own computers, but they throw up their hands in dismay at the sight of a flat tire. It doesn't matter that any human being with a brain can intuit the function of the tire iron, jack, and spare in the trunk. Apply this to any number of commonplace problems for which there are professionals to be hired. Most of these things are EASY if you just look at them and think a bit, but they just refuse to do it.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: TridenTBoy3555
You might not realize that many people who are in very advanced fields are more dedicated to their work than anything else in their lives. That can mean they are learning more and more about their field because there is so much to learn and are just trying to keep up.

How many PhDs and MDs do you interact with every day, that you can make this claim? I've been rubbing shoulders on a daily basis with professors, technicians, and doctors in a number of fields for the better part of a decade now. Sure, they ARE very dedicated to their work, and they ARE constantly learning more and more about it. But having spent time roofing, wrenching, rafting, climbing, and painting with them, I can say that they are commonly average to above average in these tasks too. Often they do end up hiring someone to do their big handyman projects for them, but that's just a matter of time, not ability. There are only so many hours in a day.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: EMPshockwave82

Originally posted by: sjwaste

Fast forward to me at age 27, and I didn't see any of the neighborhood kids shoveling last week when we got snow. I was out there since I don't have any kids. I would've paid one of them to do it, since their parents probably told them to go out and offer. Oh well. My kids will help out and learn.

Yep. Kids now will sit inside while a service comes and plows their driveway that could be shoveled by a kid in 30 minutes. Their parents don't want them to go outside in the cold because they might get sick or slip and hurt their sauft wittle bottoms.

My dad used to tell me he had kids so he wouldn't have to shovel anymore. (jokingly of course).

Well, I was a kid a few years ago (22 now) but I distinctly remember busting up the ice in my driveway just so we could take the truck to school one day. I was 13 or so. It was tough, but I did it without being told to.

 

[TridenT]

Originally posted by: Excelsior

Originally posted by: EMPshockwave82

Originally posted by: sjwaste

Fast forward to me at age 27, and I didn't see any of the neighborhood kids shoveling last week when we got snow. I was out there since I don't have any kids. I would've paid one of them to do it, since their parents probably told them to go out and offer. Oh well. My kids will help out and learn.

Yep. Kids now will sit inside while a service comes and plows their driveway that could be shoveled by a kid in 30 minutes. Their parents don't want them to go outside in the cold because they might get sick or slip and hurt their sauft wittle bottoms.

My dad used to tell me he had kids so he wouldn't have to shovel anymore. (jokingly of course).

Well, I was a kid a few years ago (22 now) but I distinctly remember busting up the ice in my driveway just so we could take the truck to school one day. I was 13 or so. It was tough, but I did it without being told to.

I never had to do this because we never got snow thick enough. We got snow very rarely too. (Douglas County, OR.. Valley area)

 

[kranky]

It's a treat to read a thread with actual discussion of a topic.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: SlitheryDee
You can be really really good at one thing, and still be able to do most everything else acceptably well. Being a theoretical physicist doesn't mean you can't change the oil in your car. Being a surgeon doesn't mean you can't replace the pilot light in your water heater. Being an architect doesn't mean you can't cook a decent meal from scratch. It's not the idea of specialization itself that I find distasteful, it's the idea that once specialized, you can't do anything else.

When I replaced my front door I didn't stop to think whether I'd been taught how or not. I saw that the front door needed replacing so I procured a new one and installed it. When I needed to replace the floor in my mom's bathroom it didn't even occur to me that I couldn't do it, even though I'd never done it before. No one showed me how to replace the oil in my car. All I knew was that such a thing was possible, so I set out to do it. No one taught me how to build computers. I simply disassembled the first Packard Bell my parents bought in junior high and saw how the thing fit together. The next computer I owned was one I built.

My grandfather was no carpenter, but he built two rooms onto his house and two sheds behind it. He was no machinist, but he constructed practically every metal implement he needed in the process. He was no plumber, but he installed the plumbing in all of it.

Productive people are naturally well rounded. They can't help it. They see that something needs doing and they do it, regardless of whether they've been to school for it or not.

I'm calling bullshit. It's not that I don't believe there are well rounded people. It's just your assumptions are disgusting. Your grandfather may not have been a carpenter, but he had to learn how to build a room from somewhere or he most likely built a shitty room. The chances of him building a flawless addition to his house, perfectly up to code, with little to no research, prior experience or training is so fucking ungodly slim. And he did the plumbing and constructed tools (I'm assuming he wasn't making his own power drills). Could he build an airplane also or construct a computer? Eventually, I guarantee you we could find something he couldn't do without having to learn it. And you know what, even if you find a person that has prior experience with nearly every aspect of life, you will have found a person that has left very little time to enjoyment of life, who probably spent every waking moment trying to learn something new. That's a trade-off.

And you know, that's odd that you could tile a perfect bathroom from the get go. Considering there are shows on TV such as "Holmes and Homes" where he sits around tearing apart other peoples shoddy work because they didn't use the right cement, left it out to dry too long, didn't set the tiles uniformly, or did a smooth coat when they needed ridges or vice versa (depending on the back of the tile).

 

[SlitheryDee]

Originally posted by: skace
I'm calling bullshit. It's not that I don't believe there are well rounded people. It's just your assumptions are disgusting. Your grandfather may not have been a carpenter, but he had to learn how to build a room from somewhere or he most likely built a shitty room. The chances of him building a flawless addition to his house, perfectly up to code, with little to no research, prior experience or training is so fucking ungodly slim.

When did I say you can't do any research? My entire argument was against those who won't tackle a project at all because there are skills they lack beforehand. You're right, highly specific knowledge like building code has to come from somewhere. My point is that he didn't know any of them before he got started. I spoke to him this morning and asked him some questions relating to his various projects. Turns out he had some help with the additions from my other grandfather (my mother's father), who's primary occupation was masonry and carpentry, so that explains a lot about why you can hardly tell the house was even added onto. It IS very well done though. They weren't sure who to call to get information on building codes so they just called the town hall, which put them in touch with someone who knew. Building codes probably weren't nearly as extensive in the 60s as they are now, though. I asked him what he would have done if he had gotten halfway through only to discover that he couldn't finish. His exact words were "I would have hired someone to finish, but I knew I wouldn't need it." "I've never been scared to jump into something half-cocked". *laugh*.

And he did the plumbing and constructed tools (I'm assuming he wasn't making his own power drills). Could he build an airplane also or construct a computer? Eventually, I guarantee you we could find something he couldn't do without having to learn it. And you know what, even if you find a person that has prior experience with nearly every aspect of life, you will have found a person that has left very little time to enjoyment of life, who probably spent every waking moment trying to learn something new. That's a trade-off.

Of course he didn't make the basic tools. What I meant was he welded and cut supports and things that he needed on the fly. I still see him doing this kind of thing all the time. If there's some project he's on that has specific needs he'll disappear into his shop for a while and reappear with something that fits the job a short time later. That's not to say he manages to weld without a welding machine or grind without a grinder. He told me this morning that no one taught him how to weld either, he just bought himself a welder and messed with it until he could make stuff stay together. Of course he was always asking questions of people that knew how to weld, but he picked up the majority of his skill through practice. I forgot to mention the rather ingenious system of metal tubing he built in and around both of his shops to route pressurized air from his compressor to wherever he needed it. He said he had no idea how something like that was "supposed" to be built, he just knew what he needed it to do. You want to know what his primary vocation was? He was a shoe cobbler.

And you know, that's odd that you could tile a perfect bathroom from the get go. Considering there are shows on TV such as "Holmes and Homes" where he sits around tearing apart other peoples shoddy work because they didn't use the right cement, left it out to dry too long, didn't set the tiles uniformly, or did a smooth coat when they needed ridges or vice versa (depending on the back of the tile).

Let me tell you about where my mother was living at the time. After her divorce she used her settlement to buy a trailer and a small plot of land to place it on while she completed her education at LSUA. There was extensive water damage to the bathroom floor from some sort of persistent leak that caused the thin plywood to sag and generally be dangerous to walk on. Going into this project I knew how to use a skil-saw, a claw hammer, a crow-bar, and an electric drill. I also knew how to cut wood to the approximate size I needed. That is to say, I had some rudimentary woodworking knowledge from past projects. I crawled underneath and saw that the flooring was rather simple, consisting of a thin plywood sheet nailed directly into 2x4s that ran along the entire length of the trailer. I used a crowbar and a claw hammer to tear up the old floor and removed the toilet completely while I worked. I cut several sheets of 3/4" plywood into ~4 pieces to match measurements I took as I worked. I wasted several sheets with incorrect cuts, but I eventually got some pieces that butted acceptably to the surrounding wood on all sides when laid into the floor. From there is was a simple matter to screw them down to the existing supports. My mom had purchased some cheap linoleum tiling that was easy to cut and place, so I used that to cover the plywood. I took the wax ring from underneath the toilet to a hardware center and they gave me another like it, which I used to remount the toilet. I had never replaced a floor before, but each step in this process was pretty easy to figure out and accomplish, the finished product looked like it came with the trailer, and the whole thing was still in great shape when she sold the trailer 2 years later.

 

[Xavier434]

I really don't buy into the whole technology arguments because they always seem to revolve around new technology. What about old technologies that we rely upon or relied upon at one point in time until they were upgraded? Are we more pussified, weaker, etc because we decided to rely on tractors to help the production of our farms instead of mules for example? Did things get worse when people first invented the telephone or the radio? Was it a bad decision to invent the train and retire the horse?

I think blaming technology is a cop out. We have always relied on technology in one form or another. Technology changes how we do things, but it is not the source of the problems. The real source stems from people's ability to adapt to that technology.