When can we expect hybrid vans and trucks?

[ShawnD1]

It was probably a few years ago when we had a thread about which is a better deal for fuel saving: a new truck vs a hybrid car. The scenario discussed was a family that needed a truck and a car, and the question was if more money would be saved by going from 10mpg to 20mpg in a new truck or 30mpg to 60mpg with a new hybrid car. The answer was that the new truck would save more gas because a 50% reduction for the truck was a larger volume of gasoline than 50% reduction for the car. That makes perfect sense, so where the hell is my hybrid truck or minivan?

Right now we have basically nothing. GM offers a hybrid truck, but I don't think anyone else does. As far as I know, there are no hybrid minivans. Does anyone know if more hybrids are in the works? All I can see on google is some stuff about possibly a hybrid Toyota Sienna minivan, but that's about it.

 

[StageLeft]

I really, REALLY, would love an answer to this, too. I have a Prius and a minivan. I saw yesterday another neighbor has a minivan and a versa, so the same idea; one cheap car that sips fuel and another hauler. There are some hybrid "pseudo-minivans" like the crossovers and what not but I frankly just want a minivan. A sienna gets something like 18/25 for mileage. I assume that hybrid tech (at least from Toyota, which has the best--holla) could bring it up to 24/31 or something (number pulled from ass). It would be meaningful as long as it didn't steal too much room from its compartment and I think it could be done. I assume simply demand isn't really there, unfortunately.

Google sienna hybrid and more rumors than real meat. The one argument the thing is too heavy for hybrid is rubbish considering the chevy tahoe hybrid is much bigger and the hybrid system helps quite a bit in it from what I can tell (14/20 turns into 20/20 which is actually phenomenal for a vehicle that big--4WD at that--doing better in mileage than a minivan in the city).

I'm reading something about the Toyota Estima Hybrid Minivan but it's only in Japan.

 

[Proprioceptive]

I think buying that Prius did something funny to your head...

 

[vi edit]

My biggest problem is that vans and trucks are so ridiculously expensive now (a loaded Sienna goes for over 40k and a light duty truck is as much or more) that hybrid versions would just price them out of reach of anyone who is doing it for any semblance of cost savings.

What I want is a diesel version of something like the Mazda5 that gets me 30+ in town and 45+ on the highway.

 

[sdifox]

do we even have Diesel Electric trucks in NA?

 

[angry hampster]

I would MUCH rather have a small turbodiesel in a half-ton truck than a hybrid system. ...like the 4.5L Duramax that GM killed off.

 

[JulesMaximus]

GM made a hybrid version of the 1500 but it didn't sell well at all and I think they discontinued it. Mileage was only 1-2mpg better than the gasoline only version.

Honestly, I think you'd be better off buying a diesel engine truck as they get better fuel economy than their gasoline counterparts, especially when loaded and/or towing.

 

[EightySix Four]

Yeah, but think about a small ~4l turbo diesel supported by a strong hybrid powertrain. You'd get better mileage than these big 6.5l+ monsters and with the electric motor's assistance you could still probably make 650 lb.ft or more. All that torque would be right where a truck driver needs it too.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Yeah, but think about a small ~4l turbo diesel supported by a strong hybrid powertrain. You'd get better mileage than these big 6.5l+ monsters and with the electric motor's assistance you could still probably make 650 lb.ft or more. All that torque would be right where a truck driver needs it too.

I think it would be cool if we could get some of the small diesel trucks they have in Europe over here.

 

[ShawnD1]

My biggest problem is that vans and trucks are so ridiculously expensive now

Most popular truck in America is the Ford F150. They start at 22k. A light duty truck would be the Ranger and they start at 18k. I won't act like 22k is nothing, but it's manageable. Adding a hybrid system and some options would probably be about 30k for a half ton truck. Seems reasonable.

GM made a hybrid version of the 1500 but it didn't sell well at all and I think they discontinued it. Mileage was only 1-2mpg better than the gasoline only version.

GM's hybrid truck is now quite a bit better than it was.
Regular 4WD 6.0L V8 = 13mpg city
Hybrid 4WD 6.0L V8 = 21mpg city (62% better)

I'm really surprised more effort isn't being put into hybrid trucks. There's a reason we use large DC motors for heavy duty industrial loads instead of using diesel. A DC motor can have maximum torque at 0 RPM and it never requires a clutch or a transmission. A diesel engine reaches maximum torque closer to 2000RPM, it cannot be started unless it has a clutch, and torque fluctuates so much that it needs a transmission to work properly.

 

[StageLeft]

Siennas also start at something like 24k-25 IIRC, for a barebones one.

 

[zerocool84]

Why do people still try to think that hybrids save you money??? Unless you drive a crapload a year, you won't make up the difference in gas savings.

 

[StageLeft]

Why do people still try to think that hybrids save you money??? Unless you drive a crapload a year, you won't make up the difference in gas savings.

They are maturing quickly. Five years ago they always cost more but the gap has narrowed and in a few rare cases (even without being a courier) they are in fact a tad cheaper already.

In any case, they are the future. It will make them better and them getting better will make them the future.

 

[zerocool84]

They are maturing quickly. Five years ago they always cost more but the gap has narrowed and in a few rare cases (even without being a courier) they are in fact a tad cheaper already.

In any case, they are the future. It will make them better and them getting better will make them the future.

Of course but that's the future. You don't buy a car today for tomorrow. You buy a car today for today and today, the cost saving isn't there.

 

[StageLeft]

Of course but that's the future. You don't buy a car today for tomorrow. You buy a car today for today and today, the cost saving isn't there.

But this thread is obviously about the future since, as pointed out, there is no hybrid minivan right now 🙂

 

[ecom]

do we even have Diesel Electric trucks in NA?

Orion VII is a diesel electric bus sold in North America. A diesel engine runs continuously to generate electricity for traction motor and battery pack. In SF, the 40 ft diesel-electric hybrid vehicles were found to have about 25% higher fuel consumption compared to the regular diesel buses. The MPG was 3.8 for diesel and 3.0 for diesel-electric hybrid.

The diesel coaches have 10.8L Cummins and the diesel-electrics have 6L but I don't know what model.

 

[Bignate603]

Yeah, but think about a small ~4l turbo diesel supported by a strong hybrid powertrain. You'd get better mileage than these big 6.5l+ monsters and with the electric motor's assistance you could still probably make 650 lb.ft or more. All that torque would be right where a truck driver needs it too.

For cars the power demands are very peaky, we accelerate quickly pulling away from stop lights or merging onto the highway. Beyond that almost everyone cruises using a small fraction of the power that their engine can deliver. For hybrids they can use a less powerful engine to supply the power needed to cruise and use the electric motors to assist acceleration during those short periods where needed.

This probably wouldn't work because of how those big diesel trucks are used, or at least supposed to be used. Trucks that are towing or hauling large and heavy loads will spend a decent amount of time under moderate to heavy throttle just to keep the load moving, especially on any kind of hill. A long hill could easily drain a massive battery pack so then you would be down to what the engine can deliver on its own. A small 4 cylinder diesel wouldn't be able to maintain safe highways speeds on a steep grade after the battery is dead.

My bet is that this is the reason GM's hybrid full sized SUVs and trucks still use a full sized engine. They can use the electric motor to help acceleration in town but they still need an engine that has plenty of power to keep it and its load moving if the battery gets run down during something that requires a good deal of power for a longer period of time.

 

[EightySix Four]

For cars the power demands are very peaky, we accelerate quickly pulling away from stop lights or merging onto the highway. Beyond that almost everyone cruises using a small fraction of the power that their engine can deliver. For hybrids they can use a less powerful engine to supply the power needed to cruise and use the electric motors to assist acceleration during those short periods where needed.

This probably wouldn't work because of how those big diesel trucks are used, or at least supposed to be used. Trucks that are towing or hauling large and heavy loads will spend a decent amount of time under moderate to heavy throttle just to keep the load moving, especially on any kind of hill. A long hill could easily drain a massive battery pack so then you would be down to what the engine can deliver on its own. A small 4 cylinder diesel wouldn't be able to maintain safe highways speeds on a steep grade after the battery is dead.

My bet is that this is the reason GM's hybrid full sized SUVs and trucks still use a full sized engine. They can use the electric motor to help acceleration in town but they still need an engine that has plenty of power to keep it and its load moving if the battery gets run down during something that requires a good deal of power for a longer period of time.

The 4.4l that ford was developing was supposedly producing over 500lb.ft of torque. That is plenty once you are already moving. The hardest part for a truck towing big loads is initially getting moving.

 

[TruePaige]

This increase in mileage on a non-aerodynamically designed vehicle (unlike the prius, volt, etc..) is so negligible that you will ALWAYS lose money and add complications to the system needlessly.

I love hybrids (electric with a backup is my favorite hope), but this makes no sense. Look at the large hybrid SUV's out there and the negligible increase in fuel economy and the greater carbon footprint (if you care about that stuff, many do..not really me. I think hybrids are a piss poor compromise in that area) overall due to the creation of the additional materials for their drive trains and battery packs.

 

[EightySix Four]

This increase in mileage on a non-aerodynamically designed vehicle (unlike the prius, volt, etc..) is so negligible that you will ALWAYS lose money and add complications to the system needlessly.

I love hybrids (electric with a backup is my favorite hope), but this makes no sense. Look at the large hybrid SUV's out there and the negligible increase in fuel economy and the greater carbon footprint (if you care about that stuff, many do..not really me. I think hybrids are a piss poor compromise in that area) overall due to the creation of the additional materials for their drive trains and battery packs.

On the flip side, how many MPG would the prius get without the hybrid drivetrain? I doubt it is anywhere near the amount of benefit a truck would get. The hybrid trucks improve city efficiency by 62%, that is a huge amount.

 

[Bignate603]

The 4.4l that ford was developing was supposedly producing over 500lb.ft of torque. That is plenty once you are already moving. The hardest part for a truck towing big loads is initially getting moving.

I agree, 500 lb.ft of torque should be plenty to keep a loaded pickup truck moving up almost all grades on a highways. I misread your previous comment and thought you said a 4 cylinder engine.

 

[ShawnD1]

Why do people still try to think that hybrids save you money??? Unless you drive a crapload a year, you won't make up the difference in gas savings.

I haven't checked this recently so I'll run through it to see what it's like these days. Prices listed are Canadian dollars, include all taxes and shipping based on where I live, fuel price at the moment is $0.92 per litre ($3.48 per US gallon). Over 90% of the population lives in a city, but highway miles add up quickly so I'll base mileage on the combined city-highway mileage rating.

Hybrid truck:
GMC Sierra
crew cab (that means 4 doors)
4WD
6.0L V8
combined mileage: 9.5 L/100km (about 25mpg using canada's testing standard)
Total cost to drive off the lot, includes taxes, includes delivery, includes $8000 discount (wtf?): $47,255.25 CDN

Regular truck:
GMC Sierra
crew cab
4WD
6.0L V8
combined mileage: 14.5 L/100km (about 16mpg)
Total cost to drive off the lot, includes taxes, includes delivery, includes $9000 discount (nice!): $39,543 CDN

So the cost difference is $7,712. This would actually make a really good grade 8 math question. If X is the number of kilometers driven, where do the two trucks have an equal price?

$39543 + (X km)*(14.5L / 100km)($0.92 / 1L) = $47255 + (X km)*(9.5L / 100km)($0.92 / 1L)

39543 + 0.1334(X) = 47255 + 0.0874(X)

0.046(X) = 7712

X = 167,652 kilometers

Divide by 1.6 if you want that in miles, so 104,782 miles


There's your break even point. For the amount I drive, that would be about 5 years. IIRC, the break even point between the Toyota Corolla and the Honda Insight was also about 5 years.

 

[StageLeft]

This increase in mileage on a non-aerodynamically designed vehicle (unlike the prius, volt, etc..) is so negligible that you will ALWAYS lose money and add complications to the system needlessly.

I love hybrids (electric with a backup is my favorite hope), but this makes no sense. Look at the large hybrid SUV's out there and the negligible increase in fuel economy and the greater carbon footprint (if you care about that stuff, many do..not really me. I think hybrids are a piss poor compromise in that area) overall due to the creation of the additional materials for their drive trains and battery packs.

But the chevy tahoe I looked on edmunds, 4wd gets 14 mpg. With the hybrid it's 20. That is a freaking huge increase in mileage.

On the flip side, how many MPG would the prius get without the hybrid drivetrain?

I'd like to know. It has no drivebelts; everything is electric. It also uses a kind of combustion process that is more efficient but a slightly heavier engine with lower torque. So I wonder what mileage it would get cruising on the highway if the hybrid part of the system completely died (because even when under constant power and no regen the motor will often kick in to charge the battery up and the electric is under very frequent assist even on a long highway stretch).

 

[Ronstang]

There's your break even point. For the amount I drive, that would be about 5 years. IIRC, the break even point between the Toyota Corolla and the Honda Insight was also about 5 years.

Now one more thing added to the equation. At 5 years are the battery packs still functioning properly or have they lost a decent portion of their storage capacity? Do the batteries need to be replaced at this time? If so, how much does that cost?

Does wear on the battery packs in hybrids change the actual fuel mileage, or simply the amount of miles you can travel? There are so many more variables to consider with hybrids.

 

[ShawnD1]

I feel like posting again. I'll probably ditch my Corolla in a few years for something nicer and twice as expensive. Let's compare the Toyota Highlander against the hybrid version.

The regular highlander limited edition is rated at 10.8 L/100km and has a total cost of $50,708 CDN to drive off the lot.

The hybrid limited is rated for 7.7 L/100km and costs $59,823 which would put the difference at 9115

(X km)*(10.8L / 100km)*($0.92 / 1L) = $9115 + (X km)*(7.7L / 100km)*($0.92 / 1L)

0.09936(X) = 9115 + 0.07084(X)

0.02852(X) = 9115

X = 319,600 kilometers or 199,750 miles

What a rip off.