Question What's your opinion about PSU Tier list on Linustechtips?

[torlen11cc]

Hello,

I am looking at buying Antec High Current Gamer 650W power supply.

Seems decent for that price, but it's a Tier D unit according to the tier list over on linustechtips.
Should I get the Gigabyte P650B? What would be the better choice?

Thanks.

 

[JEDIYoda]

as much as i respect Jon, Okla and Tazz, their testing is good, but it's limited

then again, they're fortunately not the only one doing testing

and errors can always happen, that's why i'm trying to be as open as possible to suggestions. unfortunately limiting myself to a single reviewer isn't one i'm currently open to

Notuice i said -- what your doing is good!

 

[Torn Mind]

You never scrimp on your PSU!1 If you do not have the money for a good PSU then I contend you have no business building a computer!!

I'm not sure what the hell I was typing, but I meant to say that if I'm not going to hold on to a particular computer due to constant obsolescence and psychologically needing a new PSU with a new build every time, then it is not worth the money to buy those super long warranties. I don't mind buying more insurance, if the insurance provides actual tangible benefits. Up to a point, if avoiding downtime is such a concern, people should buying products incorporating concepts used in servers should be put into desktop CPUs, such as having two separate PSUs in one unit.
I also don't mind buying extended insurance if I plan to use it for that full extended time period. If I'm buying a 10 year warranty unit, I'm actually going to run it and run it hard for that long.

Certain failure modes occur early in the life of PSU use. The cold solder joint is one such failure in which problems become noticeable relatively quickly. Here, physical examination of the solder job and how consistent a manufacturer is with it over time is valuable, which OkalahomaWolf certainly did.

The normal failures mode of "quality" units should be simply inconsistent function or quiet, unobtrusive nonfunction with no damage to downstream components. The limiting factors are the fan and the capacitors cooled by said fans.

I actually have too many functional units just collecting dust. Currently running one unit with a budget EVGA(BT 450 or something) when they were buying marketshare at a loss. Before that, I got two Antecs, one Earthwatts and one Neo Eco 520C for about 30 dollars each and they still fire up computers I snatched off of the street for free and had dead OEM PSUs with bulging caps.

Now, I don't use too much power as I have no time to game, but I am confident that the PSUs will outlast me.

The strange thing is that people don't apply the same paranoia logic to mechanical hard drives, typically going for the WD Blues or those wretched Seagate consumer drives or if they want some insurance, the WD Blacks. Never do they go for the Enterprise grade units.
Likewise with SSDs and the horror of data recovery if they go belly up. There needs to be budgeting for two or more reliable backup drives.

 

[Torn Mind]

I've never bought a "burned in", used, or refurbished PSU before. I've only bought new units, and if they aren't DOA or fail quickly after being installed, the odds will be they should last a long time. Just because a person doesn't directly interact with a component doesn't mean that it doesn't makes sense to spend what is needed for each individual's needs. Things like nicer motherboards, after-market coolers, gold/platinum/titanium power supplies.

$50 is not a lot for a PSU, and that's what a lot of the no-name junk units are priced at on places like Amazon or Newegg. Especially after the tariffs, PSU pricing has gone up quite a bit over the last 18 months or so. In fact, here are the first eight sorted-by-price units (650w - 750w) sold and shipped by Newegg:


View attachment 16607

Units built for other people require a higher threshold for reliability and protection from than what one builds for oneself because the cost of service is greater for the unskilled. For those who can't even open a computer, that's where going after the the brand new, highest quality make sense theoretically. Making sure no callbacks for a construction job would be the analogy. Since I am, however, somewhat skilled and educated in parts, I'm merely using the information learned from sites like Hardware Secrets to save money yet still acquire quality units with plenty of life left. For the cost of $25-$30 years ago, I have two old Seasonic-based Antecs that can still serve me today. They won't blow up my rig, and should one fail, I just have to replace the failed unit.

Before, Antec's VP 450 was sold for around 40 dollars. Currently, EVGA's BT450 can be had at Amazon for $45. Being the bigger corporate giant, Amazon doesn't cost extra money to return in case of defect as well.

650-750W is for big time enthusiast grade single card gaming rigs powered by the likes of the 2080.

Also, another cause for failure over time is dust and corrosion. I don't see builders coating their motherboards in dielectric grease to barricade exposed metal from the elements.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Your very defensive. but that`s OK!! You still have not given any good reasons for buying a cheap PSU!! Unless you have no choice and having a quality shipped will mean that you have to wait so you decide to purchase a cheap PSU locally so your computer will work!!
Bottom line is never skimp on a PSU!!
When it concerns the EVGA's BT450 you pick the one exception to that rule even Tom`s stated -- "Usually, PSUs in this price range are ticking time bombs."

On the other hand, we don't like the 20-gauge wires used for most of the connectors. Cables responsible for transferring the highest power levels should at least use 18-gauge wires. It's especially shameful to find those thinner wires on the EPS and 24-pin ATX connectors.

Then again in response to the Antec VP 450 -- With so many bad power supplies sold for USD 40 or less (several of which can really damage your PC due to voltages outside the proper range), the Antec VP450 is a terrific find. If you are building an entry-level PC that doesn’t require a lot of power, you and your wallet will be very happy with the VP450

 

[Torn Mind]

Your very defensive. but that`s OK!! You still have not given any good reasons for buying a cheap PSU!! Unless you have no choice and having a quality shipped will mean that you have to wait so you decide to purchase a cheap PSU locally so your computer will work!!
Bottom line is never skimp on a PSU!!
When it concerns the EVGA's BT450 you pick the one exception to that rule even Tom`s stated -- "Usually, PSUs in this price range are ticking time bombs."

On the other hand, we don't like the 20-gauge wires used for most of the connectors. Cables responsible for transferring the highest power levels should at least use 18-gauge wires. It's especially shameful to find those thinner wires on the EPS and 24-pin ATX connectors.

Then again in response to the Antec VP 450 -- With so many bad power supplies sold for USD 40 or less (several of which can really damage your PC due to voltages outside the proper range), the Antec VP450 is a terrific find. If you are building an entry-level PC that doesn’t require a lot of power, you and your wallet will be very happy with the VP450

I believe I was elucidating moreso than defending.

The point I am trying to make is that at the 40 price point, quality can exist, not that every unit is quality. The two matters of concern of actual crappy PSUs, which are damage to downstream components and violation of ATX specs, can be avoided at the $40-$45 price point, especially pre-tariffs. For a connoisseur like myself, I have no trouble picking out which companies have standards. There is no need to go higher if the goal merely to avoid events of mass computer destruction.

The matter of trusting 20 gauge wire is similar to when you would feel safe running a space heater over a 16 gauge, 100 foot extension cord. At full power, which is, 1500W, I would not since I have seen warped insulation jackets from other people doing that. But at the low power setting, which is usually 750W or 600W, I would. Cut that wattage by 1/3, and that is a rule of thumb for how much you would trust a much shorter run of 20 gauge. In fact, why don't the reviews get some thermal imaging equipment and measure the temps of the wire at full load to see the practical limits of the hardware?

I actually have in my possesion, an actual lightweight, supposedly bad quality PSU unit. It actually was part of a gift computer way back when. It only manifested a problem ONCE, in which I closed a browser window and the whole computer shut down. But that was the only time it acted up. When running, the system was stable. I replaced that with a Seasonic 300ES unit precisely to avoid matters of mass computer destruction, not because of "issues" while operating the computer.


My unit is a B1, not BT, because I was going off the top of my head. They were running a rebate on top of $35 base price way back in 2016. I probably got it for $19 bucks. That is on top of the two sub-30 dollar Ebay Antec Earthwatts and Neo Eco I initially procured in 2011 or whenever I did my first build. For $75 total, I have 20 years of service or so to burn.

Never have I seen anyone mention how buying a pure sine double online UPS would give actual tangible insurance upstream of the PSU at the expense of losing some efficiency. That UPS and its battery becomes that sacrificial piece in case of lightning or poor quality electricity. I don't own one myself, but if I needed to go hog wild on protection of equipment, I would get one for the $400-$450.

 

[Torn Mind]

where do you see my focus on ripple or even electrical performance in general? i just see protections, topology, crossloads for c6/c7 and so on

Wasn't talking about your list, but rather enthusiast "culture" in general, where everything has to be new and "quality". I had an exchange on Slickdeals with user DanHoo years ago....where he would call OEM Dell PSUs garbage and replace them immediately with "quality" units of the time.

 

[Torn Mind]

As for the tier list, it actually is a ranking of how well units protect against corner cases. Cases that likely will never be triggered in affluent areas like the the U.S before the fan dies and then takes out the caps in the process.

Durability is more influenced by the matters of fan quality, soldering quality, heatsink size, and cap quality. That's why a Tier D Seasonic is still a viable buy on the cheap even though "group regulated" is no bueno in enthusiast culture.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Wasn't talking about your list, but rather enthusiast "culture" in general, where everything has to be new and "quality". I had an exchange on Slickdeals with user DanHoo years ago....where he would call OEM Dell PSUs garbage and replace them immediately with "quality" units of the time.

That is because true enthusists understand that your PSU is the most important part of your computer! Even more impotant than the CPU.........

 

[LukeSavenije]

That's why a Tier D Seasonic is still a viable buy on the cheap even though "group regulated" is no bueno in enthusiast culture.

you do keep in mind this can cause a horrible 5v regulation, which actually can kill hardware in a long run? since "group regulation" regulates 5v and 12v together, with crossloads the 5v can go easily out of spec. that's why i don't recommend them beyond something like a simple office system. with s12ii/m12ii (to take that one specifically here as an example), is it's lack of UVP

As for the tier list, it actually is a ranking of how well units protect against corner cases.

i won't say they're always happening... but they certainly are there for a reason

I had an exchange on Slickdeals with user DanHoo years ago....where he would call OEM Dell PSUs garbage and replace them immediately with "quality" units of the time.

probably because of a higher failure rate of some (i recall) delta units in those at the time, which is what happens if your protections don't quite work or are too late

that likely will never be triggered in affluent areas like the the U.S before the fan dies and then takes out the caps in the process.

which is where otp would come in place to save it from destroying anything... and caps itself take a very long time to die, you can calculate for yourself

but this is of course my view here, i'm not saying other things aren't important, but i wouldn't say something like a fan bearing would excuse for bad voltage regulation

 

[Torn Mind]

That is because true enthusists understand that your PSU is the most important part of your computer! Even more impotant than the CPU.........

The market has shifted to the point that causes of utter disaster during expected normal use is no longer emphasized in reviews and that corner and edge cases are what distinguishes the "best" from the not as good. Expected normal use is like pulling wattage the PSU is rated for and blowing that unit up because said PSU was deceptively labelled, voltage control and ripple/noise, etc being out of spec, etc, shoddy build quality and work(unclean and/or bad solder), poorly designed topologies with a disastrous single point of failure(an eMachines unit with a time bomb 5VSB on JonnyGURU). The matters of reliability and having a non-destructive failure have not changed for those yesteryear Seasonics and the like. It's like seeing a 10 supermodel and then seeing a 9 supermodel next to her.

Enthusiasts might just doing activities that might trigger cold solder joints more quickly. A combination of an overclocked CPU, GPU when gaming and/or streaming hard requires superior heat dissipation and creature comforts. However, being able to handle a crossload is NOT buying a company with high quality soldering process, a ball bearing fan, and fat heatsinks.

 

[Torn Mind]

you do keep in mind this can cause a horrible 5v regulation, which actually can kill hardware in a long run? since "group regulation" regulates 5v and 12v together, with crossloads the 5v can go easily out of spec. that's why i don't recommend them beyond something like a simple office system. with s12ii/m12ii (to take that one specifically here as an example), is it's lack of UVP

i won't say they're always happening... but they certainly are there for a reason

probably because of a higher failure rate of some (i recall) delta units in those at the time, which is what happens if your protections don't quite work or are too late

which is where otp would come in place to save it from destroying anything... and caps itself take a very long time to die, you can calculate for yourself

but this is of course my view here, i'm not saying other things aren't important, but i wouldn't say something like a fan bearing would excuse for bad voltage regulation

Protection circuits don't do jack if the manufacturers set the values way away from the ATX spec. They might protect against a fire, but the downstream equipment is not going to be protected from out of spec values. Yes, fire protection is valuable when 300+ watts, sometimes much more than 300W, are flowing through a circuit board, but it is not all-purpose equipment protection.

Those Deltas might fail in 3-5 years, but if they do, Dell would spec it so they fail nondestructively and only need a swap for a new unit. Trashing the new unit immediately is just e-waste. Dell is big enough to put more quality in PSUs than places like CyberPowerPC.

The fact is that hardware power consumption has not changed that much since the time of Sandy Bridge. Haswell introduced sleep states that were disabled by default to insure compatibility with these elder PSUs, signifying that they will function with those old units with disabled sleep states.

 

[mindless1]

For my needs, give me Jap. caps, dual ball bearing fan, and full input range.

Otherwise I just set a budget and a time frame and buy whichever seems the best value within that time frame. I usually end up with something rated for about double the system load, around $30 for a system with integrated video or closer to $60 with a midrange video card.

I even managed to snag the equivalent of an OCZ GameXtreme 700W (except the StealhXtreme version) for $30 after a rebate, a promo code, and a combo discount. It still works a decade later so I don't regret the purchase even if I end up having to put new capacitors in it someday.

As far as that PSU list, the problem I see is that it's trying to over-simplify the PSU selection process, which is a fair thing to do for someone who doesn't know if they're going to have an imbalanced cross loading problem and doesn't have a multimeter to measure voltage at different system states, but someone who does have the ability to check these things, may have other priorities that rank higher in their value per dollar estimation.

Buy it, check that the system is stable, then next comes lifespan. I have never had a long term issue with burning out anything from a 12V or 5V rail a bit out of spec as long as the PSU didn't have horrific ripple, and even that was more of a problem before mobos switched to using polymer caps.

 

[VirtualLarry]

secondly, making a review look better than it is would be against the law

LOL. Not really interested in what you have to say, after that comment.

 

[LukeSavenije]

LOL. Not really interested in what you have to say, after that comment.

look... I'm not a lawyer, but i know there are guidelines around this, and if this would happen they can lose a lot of reputation

but okay... let's call it poor wording from my side

 

[mindless1]

^ It doesn't always work like that. An example - There was a time, when there was this guy (who is still around), who worked for a PSU company. He gave fairly good reviews to PSU we now accept as junk and defended those PSU a bit too zealously. It went beyond just a review. Old timers may know who I'm talking about but his name is irrelevant.

Heh, I even got a warning from an AT mod at the time, because his loyal followers were upset that I would dare dislike those PSU. Got called out on his forum too, then eventually as more and more people became knowledgeable about the differences in PSU design, build quality, etc, and all the owners of those PSU had them age with a high failure rate, it became more clear to the masses that those PSU weren't so great.

Anyway the point is, you can't assume that fearing loss of reputation will stop questionable reviews from happening. Maybe that's true to some extent, in my mind he lost a little cred at the time, but that guy has done a lot more work and better reviews since then to make up for it.

 

[UsandThem]

I saw this Raidmax XT power supply at Newegg (was one if their daily Shell Shocker deals).

It amazes me that someone who claims to understand components, and who has built computers for 20 years, would even go with a unit like this. But then they also add they should have gone with a Rosewill brand PSU, so I'm guessing they just don't understand the power supply market / manufacturers.

https://www.newegg.com/raidmax-xt-series-rx-500xt-500w/p/N82E16817152060

 

[LukeSavenije]

I saw this Raidmax XT power supply at Newegg

well... ever seen raidmax's attempt on a flagship?

80+ titanium
good voltage regulation, ripple, only a little loud

forget otp

but yeah... not that rosewill is all amazing, but it's mostly better than raidmax to say the least

 

[Torn Mind]

I saw this Raidmax XT power supply at Newegg (was one if their daily Shell Shocker deals).

It amazes me that someone who claims to understand components, and who has built computers for 20 years, would even go with a unit like this. But then they also add they should have gone with a Rosewill brand PSU, so I'm guessing they just don't understand the power supply market / manufacturers.

https://www.newegg.com/raidmax-xt-series-rx-500xt-500w/p/N82E16817152060

View attachment 16873

That's because the primary standard setter of PSU knowledge was Gabriel Torres' Hardware Secrets. It is possible, if not probable that someone does not come across that website and its information, especially since its progenitor no longer posts that content anymore.

The most objective source of information afterwards is a Youtube channel called Donkey Learning IT, who is a German who definitely knows the theory.

The act of computer building is just parts assembly. No knowledge of the function of the internals is needed to "make" a functioning computer. Numerous builders get a sense of false expertise just because they can assemble a computer, which is a step above an enormous number of the general public.

Now, that reviewer is questionable since he has only 3 positive reviews to multiple negative ones...Methinks he doing chargebacks and/or triggering Newegg to give him gift cards as a courtesy.........
Even in the 5-star review, it's actually a complaint that Newegg no longer sold that CPU....dumbass should know that is AMD's prerogative, not Newegg's to end distribution.

 

[DrMrLordX]

One thing that confuses me about this list: why do Tier A+ and Tier A have wattage recommendations? For example, EVGA's P2 series goes up to 1600W. Is there some particular reason why you wouldn't use a 1600W P2 but you would use a 650, 750, or 850W P2 unit? Obviously you might want something from Tier A+ instead, but I see no reason to avoid a 1600W P2 just because the P2 series wound up on a tier list that said "recommended for <=650W systems".

 

[LukeSavenije]

One thing that confuses me about this list: why do Tier A+ and Tier A have wattage recommendations?

to explain shortly, it's a soft limit I've set. i prefer to have a maximum of 60a per rail, which would come down to 720w, but i rounded that down to 650w, since it's uncommon to find 700w psus at that tier these days, and it would be a perfect limit before you get into HEDT/TR/Multi-GPU, where you'd need more.

from the technical side, in the case that UVP were to fail during a voltage drop, a well configured multirail would be able to catch it earlier on OPP/OCP than a single rail.

it's a rare case, but a possible one

with that said, it's "recommended", not "required"

 

[Furious_Styles]

I saw this Raidmax XT power supply at Newegg (was one if their daily Shell Shocker deals).

It amazes me that someone who claims to understand components, and who has built computers for 20 years, would even go with a unit like this. But then they also add they should have gone with a Rosewill brand PSU, so I'm guessing they just don't understand the power supply market / manufacturers.

https://www.newegg.com/raidmax-xt-series-rx-500xt-500w/p/N82E16817152060

View attachment 16873

I just recently sold a used mobo on ebay (nothing wrong with it) and the guy messaged me saying he can't get it to boot with his memory. I had checked that all slots worked before listing it so I know they did. I gave him some easy troubleshooting tips, no dice. Then asked if he had accidentally bent some socket pins. His response was:
"Been doing this for 32 years, I just drop them right in." I then ask for a pic just so I can confirm, and after he does a closer inspection, you might guess what happened.

Stuff like that makes me unsurprised by that newegg review, you just never know with people.

 

[JEDIYoda]

The bottom line when for me when it concerns PSU `s for me is I always stick with brands that have been known down through the years for quality -- such as Seasonic, Corsair , recently EVGA and of course there is always Thermaltake and Silverstone , Zalman and CoolerMaster and a few others!
Even though there are cheap brands on the market that have stood the test of time I am not going to risk the rest of my components on a cheaper brand that has been around a while!
I personally have nothing against Antec! But I would never buy an Antec PSU when there are so many others that are much better in build quality!
Carry on peeps!!
Oh...btw -- even after all these years you cannot trust NewEgg reviews!

 

[DrMrLordX]

The bottom line when for me when it concerns PSU `s for me is I always stick with brands that have been known down through the years for quality -- such as Seasonic, Corsair , recently EVGA and of course there is always Thermaltake and Silverstone , Zalman and CoolerMaster and a few others!

It's getting hard to recommend EVGA now, unless you buy one of their older (and generally marked-up) Super Flower units.

@LukeSavenije

Okay, that makes some sense. It really boils down to single rail vs multi rail.

 

[UsandThem]

It's getting hard to recommend EVGA now, unless you buy one of their older (and generally marked-up) Super Flower units.

EVGA has really made a mess out of their PSU lineup as well (outside of not using Super Flower for any current models). Way too many different models, with different OEMs, and with products overlapping each other.

For example, there really isn't a need to offer 7 different gold rated models, as it becomes overwhelming for a consumer trying to figure out which one to buy. Hell, it's too much effort for me to keep track of in order to recommend a unit to someone, and I'm not making a spreadsheet to keep them all sorted out.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Hell, it's too much effort for me to keep track of in order to recommend a unit to someone, and I'm not making a spreadsheet to keep them all sorted out.

Generally agreed. If I see anyone looking at EVGA, I would just say . . . get a G2, if what you want is Gold. Too bad G2s cost so much. Case in point:

Choose A Power Supply

pcpartpicker.com

The 750W G2 is actually more than the 750W P2, which is ridiculous. And the price for the P2 is a bit off as well, considering that I can get an 850W High Current Pro Platinum for less:

Choose A Power Supply

pcpartpicker.com

(note that the 850W G2 is only $130 due to a sale at NewEgg, so that's actually not a terrible deal, but for anyone looking at a lower wattage, G2s are a terrible value right now).