What's up with the FAA?

[boomerang]

Like many, I've done shift work during my lifetime. Day shift, afternoons and night shift too. One thing I learned early on when working midnights is the importance of keeping the same schedule on the weekends. Fortunately, during that time frame I was working lots of overtime which made it easier. Trying to sleep through the night when you're normally up just gets you all messed up. It's no different when trying to stay awake all night when you're normally asleep.

Now, in the aftermath of ATC's falling asleep on the job, we find that they are working split shifts. A few days on day shift, a few days on nights, etc. We also find out that having eight hours between shifts was considered adequate. Now the FAA's idea of correcting the problem is to lengthen that time to nine hours between shifts.

WTF? Why not assign people to regular shifts that they hold for extended periods of time. Make it by choice based on seniority or even make it at the whim of management, the point being to make it stable working hours so folks don't have to be trying to stay up through the night some days and sleep through the night others.

Seems like common sense to me. Am I missing something? Is this a union issue? I've only glanced through this article twice so I may have overlooked something.

http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-worl...passengers-914826.html?cxtype=rss_news_128746

The schedules controllers work can compress a 40-hour work week into fewer than five full days, noted controller Derek Bittman, of Senoia, who was made available to the media by the union.
He said his typical week has the following shifts: 3 p.m. to 11 p.m.; 2 p.m. to 10 p.m.; 8 a.m. to 4 p.m.; 5:50 a.m. to 1:30 p.m.; and 10:30 p.m. to 6 a.m.
Toward the tail end, Bittman said. “I’ve just worked 16 hours within a day-and-a-half. This is how it works.”

 

[boomerang]

You know, after thinking about it some, I may know why they do it the way they do. I've read numerous times how it's a high-stress job with many planes to keep track of and everything happening at a relatively fast pace. Keeping track of planes in the air, planes on the ground, planes on the taxiway, etc.

Maybe with a person on night shift for a lengthy period of time their skills will get too diminished? Still, you'd think a two week or four week rotation of shifts would keep their skills up to snuff. A two week rotation with a mandated two days off between should be adequate I would think.

 

[soundforbjt]

How's that union busting in the FAA looking now?

 

[boomerang]

How's that union busting in the FAA looking now?

They have a union. Quit living in the past - we can't change it.

This could have been a news related, non-political discussion and I guess it still could be if you can get your head out of your ass. It would require more than inane comments out of you though. Is that possible?

 

[spidey07]

If they're working split shifts like that somebody (likely a lot) needs to be fired and the policy changed. It takes people a good 2-3+ weeks to fully adjust to a shift change, especially on the cognitive/mental ability.

I also have zero problems with them taking power naps during shift, even a 15 minute one would do wonders and the science supports this and was recommended (and quickly rejected by the FAA).

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

They have a union. Quit living in the past - we can't change it.

This could have been a news related, non-political discussion and I guess it still could be if you can get your head out of your ass. It would require more than inane comments out of you though. Is that possible?

Well...

The problem with the FAA is that as with many large organizations look at staffing efficiency in terms of dollars and that's the end of the story. It doesn't have to make sense. It doesn't have to work well. The projections on paper is all that matters to a bureaucracy.

 

[boomerang]

If they're working split shifts like that somebody needs to be fired and the policy changed. It takes people a good 2-3+ weeks to fully adjust to a shift change.

I also have zero problems with them taking power naps during shift, even a 15 minute one would do wonders and the science supports this and was recommended (and quickly rejected by the FAA).

I can tell you've worked different shifts too.

By all appearances, they are working split shifts. Some entity is driving that policy. It doesn't appear to be coming up for discussion at this point so one or both of the parties are in support of it.

As far as the naps, certainly these people get breaks. If they nap, what's the big deal?

I just feel like we're not hearing the whole story. I know the nation is focused on major issues right now, but this is an issue that needs to be addressed and the fix appears to be quite simple.

 

[Throckmorton]

Sounds like something to bring up with the union. Oh wait. Reagan busted the union...

 

[MotF Bane]

Definitely needs to go to fixed shifts, and provide a pay differential. Work the shitty shift that messes up every aspect of your life? Get paid more for it.

 

[Throckmorton]

but this is an issue that needs to be addressed and the fix appears to be quite simple.

Are you joking? We live in a country where it's considered normal for doctors and nurses to work fucking 36 hours straight, putting patients' lives in danger. And if doctors and nurses, healthcare professionals, are too feeble-minded to question that policy, what hope do we have to get sensible shifts for air traffic controllers?

 

[boomerang]

Well...

The problem with the FAA is that as with many large organizations look at staffing efficiency in terms of dollars and that's the end of the story. It doesn't have to make sense. It doesn't have to work well. The projections on paper is all that matters to a bureaucracy.

I understand what you're saying, but the shifts are being staffed right now. I guess I'd have to think it through, but it seems that if there are enough asses to cover the seats now, dedicated shifts in one form or another would still have enough manpower available.

The bureaucracy, yeah, I hear ya. Couple that with the .gov and it's a miracle planes are taking off and landing at all...

It probably comes down to overtime pay. It probably has nothing to do with efficiency, it's fattening wallets. I saw a lot of that in my working years.

 

[boomerang]

Are you joking? We live in a country where it's considered normal for doctors and nurses to work fucking 36 hours straight, putting patients' lives in danger. And if doctors and nurses, healthcare professionals, are too feeble-minded to question that policy, what hope do we have to get sensible shifts for air traffic controllers?

You know, that's another crazy ass situation I've never understood. What's the benefit to that???

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Are you joking? We live in a country where it's considered normal for doctors and nurses to work fucking 36 hours straight, putting patients' lives in danger. And if doctors and nurses, healthcare professionals, are too feeble-minded to question that policy, what hope do we have to get sensible shifts for air traffic controllers?

We question policy, it's just that there's no effective remedy short of quitting. We could go on strike, then we would be demonized and I suspect many here would be keen to do so.

 

[Throckmorton]

We question policy, it's just that there's no effective remedy short of quitting. We could go on strike, then we would be demonized and I suspect many here would be keen to do so.

The doctors and nurses I know seem to think it's normal. They complain about the circumstances, but it seems to somehow make sense to them that they're treated like shit...

It sounds like you need to unionize. I just googled and found some discussions. It seems like the reasoning is to get you used to working tired and sleep deprived and make decisions. That makes no fucking sense. You wouldn't have to work that way if it wasn't policy, and they're endangering lives and literally causing actual deaths with the policy.

 

[spidey07]

I can tell you've worked different shifts too.

By all appearances, they are working split shifts. Some entity is driving that policy. It doesn't appear to be coming up for discussion at this point so one or both of the parties are in support of it.

As far as the naps, certainly these people get breaks. If they nap, what's the big deal?

I just feel like we're not hearing the whole story. I know the nation is focused on major issues right now, but this is an issue that needs to be addressed and the fix appears to be quite simple.

I haven't, but dated a lot of nurses and the UPS hub is located here (talk about shift work!). I know all about shift changes from their stories and how hard it is.

I agree with Busa in that management only looks at the controllers as "resources" whose hours and time can be moved around at will without understanding the consequences of that when fucking around with somebody's circadian rhythm.

And the mental health science regarding all of this is very well understood and has been for decades if not longer.

-edit-
And if you want to see me eat crow, this is one aspect where collective bargains/unions is applicable. It's a safety issue.

 

[child of wonder]

In college I worked a job in a freezer that had split shifts.

4 weeks of 6am to 2:00pm and then 4 weeks of 10pm to 6am.

I made it through the 6am to 10pm switch OK but when we switched back to the 6am shift I couldn't handle it. My body couldn't switch over from overnights to early mornings over the course of a weekend.

 

[AlienCraft]

It's not just split shifts. As I understand it, there is a policy of rotating shifts, so you end up working across day and night shifts over the course of a few months, and there is a strict "no naps, never!" policy. A worker was talking about how one place wouldn't let a worker sleep in their car in the parking lot. Even when they were off the clock!

 

[pcgeek11]

Sounds like something to bring up with the union. Oh wait. Reagan busted the union...

No, they busted themselves by taking illegal action ( strike ) and were given a chance to go back to work. When they refused to end the strike they were fired for that.

It had nothing to do with Union Busting. Damn get a clue.

 

[wuliheron]

No, they busted themselves by taking illegal action ( strike ) and were given a chance to go back to work. When they refused to end the strike they were fired for that.

It had nothing to do with Union Busting. Damn get a clue.

Get a clue yourself. Making it illegal to form a union and then firing everyone when they form one anyway and go on strike is union busting. It may be legal union busting, it may even be the right thing to do for society, but it is still called union busting. They formed a union, they went on strike as a union, and they all got fired as a union rather then on an individual basis.

Union busting is a wide range of activities undertaken by employers, their proxies, and governments, which attempt to prevent the formation or expansion of trade unions. Union busting tactics range from subtle to violent, and from legal to illegal, including sowing discord amongst union members, challenging unions in courts of law, strike breaking, lockouts, physical confrontation and intimidation, the sponsorship of anti-union organizations, or preemption through the creation of employer-controlled trade unions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_busting

 

[Throckmorton]

Air traffic controllers and doctors and nurses are begging for naps to get them through their ridiculously long shifts. It makes me sick. This is what American workers are reduced to? Stop groveling like sniveling dogs begging for scraps and grow some balls... This is not normal or right. NAPS... Jesus H Christ. Maybe if you grovel hard enough massah won't whip you so hard next time you take a nap in your car.

Imagine if regular office workers and tradesmen were begging for naps so they could work 36 hours without dying. You can't imagine it because it's unimaginable. So why is it normal for some fields?

It's becoming really clear that we regular people have no future in this country. It won't be long before we're all working 36 hour shifts. And good luck getting back your collective bargaining rights after you've given them up. We need to get the hell out before it's too late. How tough is the Canadian immigration process?

 

[wuliheron]

They traded their balls for $80,000.oo-140,000.oo a year. Good boy, speak, now roll over, beg! Its the rest of the working class stiffs who traded their balls for nothing but a pat on the head.

 

[pcgeek11]

Get a clue yourself. Making it illegal to form a union and then firing everyone when they form one anyway and go on strike is union busting. It may be legal union busting, it may even be the right thing to do for society, but it is still called union busting. They formed a union, they went on strike as a union, and they all got fired as a union rather then on an individual basis.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_busting

Are you really that ignorant?
Obviously you don't know what you are talking about. I had a very good friend that was an ATC in Miami at the time. He didn't enjoy selling life insurance after he was canned, but he does admit it was a stupid thing to do.

It was already a union and it was not illegal for them to have a union.
It was illegal for the Air Traffic Controllers to go on strike.
They did so anyway to bust the FAA's balls.
The President ordered them to go back to work or face the chopping block.
The ones that refused were fired, and banned from being rehired for life.
It happened just the way it is supposed to.

ATC's have always had sweet perks, excellent pay, vacation, and retirement. They just wanted to hold the nation hostage for greed. They poked the tiger with a stick and got bitten. It was illegal for the ATC's to strike since 1955. They could have been placed in jail for a year also. Instead they were just fired and banned for life from being rehired.

Read up: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12292.html This is just one of millions of links about it.


On this day in 1981, President Ronald Reagan fired more than 11,000 air traffic controllers who ignored his order to return to work. The sweeping mass firing of federal employees slowed commercial air travel, but it did not cripple the system as the strikers had forecast.

Two days earlier, nearly 13,000 controllers walked out after talks with the Federal Aviation Administration collapsed. As a result, some 7,000 flights across the country were canceled on that day at the peak of the summer travel season.

Robert Poli, president of the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization, sought an across-the-board annual wage increase of $10,000 for the controllers, whose pay ranged from $20,462 to $49,229 per year. He also sought a reduction of their five-day, 40-hour workweek to a four-day, 32-hour workweek. The FAA made a $40 million counteroffer, far short of the $770 million package that the union sought.

Reagan branded the strike illegal. He threatened to fire any controller who failed to return to work within 48 hours. Federal judges levied fines of $1 million per day against the union.

In 1955, Congress made such strikes punishable by fines or a one-year jail term — a law the Supreme Court upheld in 1971.

To the chagrin of the strikers, the FAA’s contingency plans worked. Some 3,000 supervisors joined 2,000 nonstriking controllers and 900 military controllers in manning airport towers. Before long, about 80 percent of flights were operating normally. Air freight remained virtually unaffected.

In carrying out his threat, Reagan also imposed a lifetime ban on rehiring the strikers. In October 1981, the Federal Labor Relations Authority decertified PATCO.

 

[pcgeek11]

Air traffic controllers and doctors and nurses are begging for naps to get them through their ridiculously long shifts. It makes me sick. This is what American workers are reduced to? Stop groveling like sniveling dogs begging for scraps and grow some balls... This is not normal or right. NAPS... Jesus H Christ. Maybe if you grovel hard enough massah won't whip you so hard next time you take a nap in your car.

Imagine if regular office workers and tradesmen were begging for naps so they could work 36 hours without dying. You can't imagine it because it's unimaginable. So why is it normal for some fields?

It's becoming really clear that we regular people have no future in this country. It won't be long before we're all working 36 hour shifts. And good luck getting back your collective bargaining rights after you've given them up. We need to get the hell out before it's too late. How tough is the Canadian immigration process?

Air Traffic Controllers DO NOT work 35 hour shifts. None of the Doctors or Nurses that I have known in my short upper 50's life work 36 hour shift. Interns are another matter.

1. They chose their occupation.
2. They are paid very well for it.
3. If they don't like it they can go into another field of work.

Compared to the military they have it made. As far as you moving to Canada, haul ass. That is if they will have you.

 

[pcgeek11]

They traded their balls for $80,000.oo-140,000.oo a year. Good boy, speak, now roll over, beg! Its the rest of the working class stiffs who traded their balls for nothing but a pat on the head.

What did you trade your balls to the union for? I still have mine.

 

[wuliheron]

Obviously you don't know what you are talking about. I had a very good friend that was an ATC in Miami at the time. He didn't enjoy selling life insurance after he was canned, but he does admit it was a stupid thing to do.

It was already a union and it was not illegal for them to have a union.
It was illegal for the Air Traffic Controllers to go on strike.{/b]
They did so anyway to bust the FAA's balls.
The President ordered them to go back to work or face the chopping block.
The ones that refused were fired, and banned from being rehired for life.
It happened just the way it is supposed to.

They formed a new union with the de facto power to go on strike and the government busted that union. Its still union busting by definition. If the government didn't allow any unions whatsoever to ever go on strike and some did anyway we would still call them unions. If they left the unions intact except for firing everyone we would still call it union busting because it fits the definition of suppressing a union. You can call them "illegal" unions, claim they were just being greedy, or whatever, but there simply is no other word for what they are and no other term for what the government did.