What's up with all these israel/palestian threads?

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
You just reinforce my position that the international law is irrelevant. It's not enforceable and not practical. Do you really think the US would consider the international law if it stands in its way to its goals?

It isn't a matter of speculation, our leaders in the US do violate international law when it stands in the way of their goals. I continue to argue vigorously against those volitions by my own nation, and I hold Israel and all other nations to the same standards as I do my own. I am not alone in this, and I have seen our numbers growing. Why do you continue to perpetuate this conflict by arguing against those of us who are working to end it?

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
You just reinforce my position that the international law is irrelevant. It's not enforceable and not practical. Do you really think the US would consider the international law if it stands in its way to its goals?

Why do you continue to perpetuate this conflict by arguing against those of us who are working to end it?

I think that although your intents are good, you are the one who perpetuates this conflict. By not allowing Israel to militarily force a solution, the armed struggle continues. Any attempt to solve this solution from a view of equality between Israel and the Palestinians will forever fail - Israelis won't accept this, and Palestinians would think they could win more if they just keep on fighting.

It might take 40 years, like it has taken other Arab countries, but ultimately it will be solved. The Palestinians aren't yet ready for a solution.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
You don't seem to understand international law. Israel can choose to violate the international laws of war if it decides to and there is no international force that can directly punish Israel for such illegal acts.

Israel has, since it's inception, here is a short list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...ions_concerning_Israel

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
However, the violation of the international laws of war will justify actions from other countries against Israel.

Yet no one willing to go up against Israel has the power to accomplish anything by doing so.

UN Resolutions are not international law.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
You just reinforce my position that the international law is irrelevant. It's not enforceable and not practical. Do you really think the US would consider the international law if it stands in its way to its goals?

They should, but if they don't then they can face the consequences. We already see the consequences from this second Iraq War versus the the first Gulf War.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
You just reinforce my position that the international law is irrelevant. It's not enforceable and not practical. Do you really think the US would consider the international law if it stands in its way to its goals?

They should, but if they don't then they can face the consequences. We already see the consequences from this second Iraq War versus the the first Gulf War.

Now you lost me. Can you explain the above?

 

[Rockinacoustic]

Originally posted by: Barack Obama
Close to 50% of P&N threads are on the conflict. War is futile. You'd think we'd all realise this after so many thousand years. Some things never change

You complain of all of the threads on the matter, yet you decided to make a thread and get your two-cents out with a poor statement like this. Thanks :thumbsdown:

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

UN Resolutions are not international law.

I didn't mean to suggest the were, but rather presented those UN Resolutions because they provide accounts of Israeli violations of international law, voilations that could have been acted upon by the UN if our veto power as US citizens were not being used to prevent such action.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

UN Resolutions are not international law.

I didn't mean to suggest the were, but rather presented those UN Resolutions because they provide accounts of Israeli violations of international law, voilations that could have been acted upon by the UN if our veto power as US citizens were not being used to prevent such action.

What would they do? Pass another resolution? The UN has been a failed organization from tis beginning, powerless to do anything meaningful.

I wonder what makes you think you should let countries like China, North Korea and Iran decide how to solve this conflict.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Deptacon
War is not futile... It solves problems... but only when carried out UNTIL THE END..... Whoever is left standing wins.... whoever isn't....if hit hard enough...is gone from the earth and just becomes words in a history book. Sounds harsh but thats how it is...Unfortunately, we can't fight wars like this anymore... its not humane....

Sometimes. It's usually just a waste of Lives, Money, and Time.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
What would they do? Pass another resolution? The UN has been a failed organization from tis beginning, powerless to do anything meaningful.

Embargos would be the obvious place to start.

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
I wonder what makes you think you should let countries like China, North Korea and Iran decide how to solve this conflict.

You only wonder such absurd things to help you ignore the fact that you are one of the extremists perpetuating this conflict.

 

[sandorski]

Israel/Palestine dominates the News due to Religion and nothing else. You've got your Zionist Fundamentalists with their with their "Holy" claim to some dirt. You've got your Muslim Fundamentalists with their claim to the same dirt. Then you've got your Christian Fundamentalists who support the Zionist Fundamentalists claim and outright ignore the Muslim Fundamentalists claim. There you have it in a Nut shell.

Somehow an Omnipotent, Omniscient, All Seeing, Creator of all has deemed that strip of dirt as something important. Something important enough that Billions are fixated on what goes on there, choosing their sides, not only willing, but looking forward to a day when Millions gather for one final battle in what will indeed be a bloodbath. It is Insanity.

As an Agnostic/Atheist I too look forward to that day, if it is necessary. Monotheism was a great Social Evolutionary event, greatly making efficient the Institutions that were cluttered by Polytheism. We need to have the next great Social Evolutionary event though, the transition from Monotheism, to No-Theism. Only then will Justice and Reason be truly Free to determine our Fate.

 

[kylebisme]

Note that the orignal Zionists were not relegious at all, but rather rejected the long standing Rabinical possition that jews should live among the nations of the world until the Kingodom of Israel can be reformed though the spirt of God. This understanding is exemplefied here:

Zechariah 4:6-7
Then he answered and spoke unto me, saying: 'This is the word of HaShem unto Zerubbabel, saying: Not by might, nor by power, but by My spirit, saith HaShem of hosts.

Who art thou, O great mountain before Zerubbabel? thou shalt become a plain; and he shall bring forth the top stone with shoutings of Grace, grace, unto it.'

That is understood as prophecy of the fall of the Babylonians to the Persians, as after 70 years of honoring Torah while captivity in Babylonia, under Persia rule Zerubbabel was permitted to lead a return to the Holy Land and rebuild the Temple, but Romans conquered the Persians and the Jews tried to rebel from the Romans who in turn drove them back into exile. Granted, since the Zionist project started, many Jews who have come to religious accept arguments to establish and maintain Israel though might and power, but there are still many secular Jews in Israel as well.

On a side note, the the Koran also prophesies the Israelites return to the land though by Gods will:

Sura 17:104
And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment.

Point being, it's really religion at route of this conflict, but rather the fact that Israel continues to colonize Palestinian territory under force of military occupation.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Israel/Palestine dominates the News due to Religion and nothing else. You've got your Zionist Fundamentalists with their with their "Holy" claim to some dirt. You've got your Muslim Fundamentalists with their claim to the same dirt. Then you've got your Christian Fundamentalists who support the Zionist Fundamentalists claim and outright ignore the Muslim Fundamentalists claim. There you have it in a Nut shell.

Somehow an Omnipotent, Omniscient, All Seeing, Creator of all has deemed that strip of dirt as something important. Something important enough that Billions are fixated on what goes on there, choosing their sides, not only willing, but looking forward to a day when Millions gather for one final battle in what will indeed be a bloodbath. It is Insanity.

As an Agnostic/Atheist I too look forward to that day, if it is necessary. Monotheism was a great Social Evolutionary event, greatly making efficient the Institutions that were cluttered by Polytheism. We need to have the next great Social Evolutionary event though, the transition from Monotheism, to No-Theism. Only then will Justice and Reason be truly Free to determine our Fate.

Sorry, but Israel doesn't approach this conflict from a religious standpoint as many Palestinians supports would like to think. By saying Israel acts on religious grounds, they implicitly put both sides of the conflict on the same moral ground.

Israel doesn't have, nor did it ever have anything with religion. Israeli governments were secular from the beginning, mostly leaning to the left.

There is only one side here motiviated by religion, and it's not Israel.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Sorry, but Israel doesn't approach this conflict from a religious standpoint as many Palestinians supports would like to think.

Some Israelis and supporters do. For instance, Zebo recently chastised me for referring to the West Bank with modern terminology, rather than the Biblical names Judea and Samaria, and insisted that the Palestinians are the colonizing power there.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Very few Israelis look at it from a religious standpoint. 5-7% of the population would be a stretch, as election results show. That's much less than people opposing abortions on religious grounds in the US. This conflict draws all sorts of extremists who try to make it appear like something far more complicated than it really is: A struggle between a modern democratic country and its extremists Muslim neighbors who don't like it one bit. That's all there is to it really.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Very few Israelis look at it from a religious standpoint. 5-7% of the population would be a stretch, as election results show.

Sure, my point is simply that such a minority exists, and can be quite vocal, misleading people like sandorski to belive religion is the overriding cause of this conflict.

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
That's much less than people opposing abortions on religious grounds in the US. This conflict draws all sorts of extremists who try to make it appear like something far more complicated than it really is: A struggle between a modern democratic country and its extremists Muslim neighbors who don't like it one bit. That's all there is to it really.

You left out the part about that modern democratic country colonizing the land out from under their Muslims and Christian neighbors in the West Bank.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Again, "colonization" is your ultimate answer to everything in this conflict. Tell me this - if Israel had peace at Gaza, how long would it take the Israelis to do the same move in the West Bank?

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Tell me this - if Israel had peace at Gaza, how long would it take the Israelis to do the same move in the West Bank?

Not long, and that would be wonderful. However, Israel's ongoing colonization of the Palestian land West Bank along with the vacuum of power Israel left in Gaza only to be filled by Hamas insures there is no peace there.

Also, I thought about your 7% figure and noted Shas and Yisrael Beiteinu together hold nearly 20% of the seats in Knesset. Beyond that, there is bound to be some portion of religious extremists who vote for Lukid just to insure the major party which is closer to their views leads their government. Granted, expansion in the West Bank continued under Labor and Kadima as well, so most every Israeli vote in effect goes to continuing that.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
How would you justify, then, bombing Hiroshima, or Dresden? Brutal, evil, whatever. It worked just fine, and that's what allows you to sit here and babble about new-age, allegedly universal moral values.
Who was the one saying something like "The only reason people can sleep soundly at night is because tough armed men are willing to commit horrible violence in their behalf" or something like that. Anyway, he was right.

In today's world, the bombings of Hiroshima and Dresden would be classified as a war crime and against the international laws of war.

Hiroshima is defensible. Having reviewed the history I can find on the decision, I think it's a combination where there are three key elements: a rational case can be made that it had a large net savings in killings by preventing the land war in Japan; I do think there was a problem with the Japanese having been 'de-humanized' up to the level of Truman out of synch with our values (mostly, people like some above excepted); and third, there is the question whether ther could have been an alternative use of the bomb for the same effect but avoiding the large number of civilian casualties. However, there's at least an arguable defense for it.

As I understand it, Dresden was not only unjustified and a horrific act, but Robert McNamara in the documentary interview 'The Fog of War', explains that he was involved in the planning, working closely with the officer in charge (the insane IMO) Curtis LeMay, and he said they knew they would be found guilty of war crimes if there was ever a situation for the question to be raised. As another responder said, Dresden was not necessary to win the war. Not every war crime can be defended on the grounds of 'it's war'.

My babbling about new age universal morals is the same thing that separates anyone from the slave industry, from the Holocaust, from one unnecessary bullet killing one baby.

It's people like you who are incoherently seduced into militarism and violence who are the problem, creating and rationalizing unnecessary, unjust, unnecessary, evil violence.
'
You should really read books suc as Chris Hedges' 'War is a Force That Gives Us Meaning'.

 

[Craig234]

Saying war solves problems is like saying robbery solves problems.

It helps someone who needs money get it, it helps keep the police and jails funded...

There is a serious problem with people who see war in a very distored way, where the violence in war is someone discounted not to count as real violence.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Tell me this - if Israel had peace at Gaza, how long would it take the Israelis to do the same move in the West Bank?

Not long, and that would be wonderful. However, Israel's ongoing colonization of the Palestian land West Bank along with the vacuum of power Israel left in Gaza only to be filled by Hamas insures there is no peace there.

Also, I thought about your 7% figure and noted Shas and Yisrael Beiteinu together hold nearly 20% of the seats in Knesset. Beyond that, there is bound to be some portion of religious extremists who vote for Lukid just to insure the major party which is closer to their views leads their government. Granted, expansion in the West Bank continued under Labor and Kadima as well, so most every Israeli vote in effect goes to continuing that.

About 50% of Shas voters aren't religious, but just low-income families who used to vote Likud before it became too conservative with economics. I stick with the 7% figure.

Most Israelis opposed settlements; that's why Kadima came to power anyway. Between those who supported settlements, however, the crushing majority was motivated by security concerns (which proved dead-on; Nethanyanu claimed it would become Hamastan and so it did). A very small and despised minority is the hardcore settlers like in Hebron, but they act and treated as an illegal militia. They routinely attack the Israeli security forces anyway.

So all in all, you have about 5% of the population that ideologically supports settlements, and that's the entire story really.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
How would you justify, then, bombing Hiroshima, or Dresden? Brutal, evil, whatever. It worked just fine, and that's what allows you to sit here and babble about new-age, allegedly universal moral values.
Who was the one saying something like "The only reason people can sleep soundly at night is because tough armed men are willing to commit horrible violence in their behalf" or something like that. Anyway, he was right.

In today's world, the bombings of Hiroshima and Dresden would be classified as a war crime and against the international laws of war.

Hiroshima is defensible. Having reviewed the history I can find on the decision, I think it's a combination where there are three key elements: a rational case can be made that it had a large net savings in killings by preventing the land war in Japan; I do think there was a problem with the Japanese having been 'de-humanized' up to the level of Truman out of synch with our values (mostly, people like some above excepted); and third, there is the question whether ther could have been an alternative use of the bomb for the same effect but avoiding the large number of civilian casualties. However, there's at least an arguable defense for it.

As I understand it, Dresden was not only unjustified and a horrific act, but Robert McNamara in the documentary interview 'The Fog of War', explains that he was involved in the planning, working closely with the officer in charge (the insane IMO) Curtis LeMay, and he said they knew they would be found guilty of war crimes if there was ever a situation for the question to be raised. As another responder said, Dresden was not necessary to win the war. Not every war crime can be defended on the grounds of 'it's war'.

My babbling about new age universal morals is the same thing that separates anyone from the slave industry, from the Holocaust, from one unnecessary bullet killing one baby.

It's people like you who are incoherently seduced into militarism and violence who are the problem, creating and rationalizing unnecessary, unjust, unnecessary, evil violence.
'
You should really read books suc as Chris Hedges' 'War is a Force That Gives Us Meaning'.

I think violence should be met with violence of, at the very least, an equal proportion. I don't think radical Islam can be reasoned it and I think that it is a moral obligation for an Israeli leader to use whatever military means necessary to fight a group such as Hamas. You can reason with Sweden and Norway, not with the Taliban.

 

[Aimster]

Because people on here are losers.

They think if they convince the other side on P&N that the world will change.

Pro-Israeli people post day and night trying to defend Israel because they think all the people bashing Israel will somehow harm Israel's image in the world.
Pro-Palestinians just want to piss off the Israeli people.

 

[Moonbeam]

Assholes always have the most elaborate justifications for being assholes. An asshole is somebody who justifies violence. Assholes are people who were taught to hate love. Assholes are emotionally dead. It matters little what they think or say because they have forfited the kingom of heaven for certainty. An asshole is absolutely right and absolutely arrogant. Assholes want you to hurt like they do. But those who have died on the cross are beyond their reach, for such have forgiven and are thus forgiven. The asshole has married his hate. In this thread there are so many assholes, and they are deeply ashamed. They want you to feel that too. They are dead little chaff that death will blow away. They will die never having lived.

We just had to ask
Maybe some one out of heaven
Would hear us down here

We couldn't bear to stand
How the people leave us waiting
For something up there

Oh, why did you leave?
Why won't you come?
And save us again? Come back to us spiders
Come uncrushed my hand
Let me sent beauty rain
And bring us love again, like you can

We just didn't know
Some one there outside of heaven
Heard us down here

We couldn't stand it here
Other people leave us longing
For something up there

Oh, why did you leave?
Why won't you come?
And save us again?

Come back to us spiders
Come uncross my hand
Let me sent beauty rain
And bring us love again, like you can

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
About 50% of Shas voters aren't religious, but just low-income families who used to vote Likud before it became too conservative with economics. I stick with the 7% figure.

Your figure doesn't even add up if you take out half the votes for Shas, who along with Yisrael Beiteinu threatened to use their combined power to depose Olmert if negotiations with the Palestinians even brought up East Jerusalem.

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Most Israelis opposed settlements; that's why Kadima came to power anyway.

I know, and yet Kadima contenued expanding settlements anyway.

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Between those who supported settlements, however, the crushing majority was motivated by security concerns.

The military occupation provides security, the settlements don't do anything of the sort.

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
(which proved dead-on; Nethanyanu claimed it would become Hamastan and so it did).

Bibi wasn't the only one, everyone paying attention could see that coming a mile away, as I have explained to you previously.

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
A very small and despised minority is the hardcore settlers like in Hebron, but they act and treated as an illegal militia. They routinely attack the Israeli security forces anyway.

So all in all, you have about 5% of the population that ideologically supports settlements, and that's the entire story really.

And yet the settlers are still in Hebron, and expanding across the West Bank just the same. How do you rationalize that?