What's up with all these israel/palestian threads?

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Very few Israelis look at it from a religious standpoint. 5-7% of the population would be a stretch, as election results show. That's much less than people opposing abortions on religious grounds in the US. This conflict draws all sorts of extremists who try to make it appear like something far more complicated than it really is: A struggle between a modern democratic country and its extremists Muslim neighbors who don't like it one bit. That's all there is to it really.

You are correct SamurAchzar!!!!!

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
I think violence should be met with violence of, at the very least, an equal proportion. I don't think radical Islam can be reasoned it and I think that it is a moral obligation for an Israeli leader to use whatever military means necessary to fight a group such as Hamas. You can reason with Sweden and Norway, not with the Taliban.

How do you suggest Hamas meet the embargo of things down to their food and medicine with an equal proportion?

And if they could, which they can't, what good would it do?

What's needed is not violent reactions, but solving problems, for Palestenians to do better.

Your 'can't reason with them' is just propaganda useful for rationalizing more war.

They were able to reason with them for the 6-month truce June to December, for example.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
I think violence should be met with violence of, at the very least, an equal proportion. I don't think radical Islam can be reasoned it and I think that it is a moral obligation for an Israeli leader to use whatever military means necessary to fight a group such as Hamas. You can reason with Sweden and Norway, not with the Taliban.

How do you suggest Hamas meet the embargo of things down to their food and medicine with an equal proportion?
Israel has stated that the embargo is a result of the rocket attacks taht Hamas refuses to stop.

And if they could, which they can't, what good would it do?
See above - Conditions have been given for reduction of the embargo - Hamas refused to comply. Israel is also concerned about military supplies coming through for Hamas to restart the attacks

What's needed is not violent reactions, but solving problems, for Palestenians to do better.
True - where is the leaderships desire?

Your 'can't reason with them' is just propaganda useful for rationalizing more war.
Should Hamas renounce their charter, it may go a way in relaxing the issues. Hamas at this point has not shown a desire to "reason"

They were able to reason with them for the 6-month truce June to December, for example.
during the truce, problems still occured. Hamas may have been laying low to resupply. When the Truce first started, Hamas refused to fully enforce it. Remember publicy, they stated that they would not launch, but would not deter others from doing so, that it was the other right to continue the struggle. What tpe of leadership does that show?

 

[SandEagle]

Can we have an ****Official Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread****?

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
I think violence should be met with violence of, at the very least, an equal proportion. I don't think radical Islam can be reasoned it and I think that it is a moral obligation for an Israeli leader to use whatever military means necessary to fight a group such as Hamas. You can reason with Sweden and Norway, not with the Taliban.

How do you suggest Hamas meet the embargo of things down to their food and medicine with an equal proportion?
Israel has stated that the embargo is a result of the rocket attacks taht Hamas refuses to stop.

Your 'inline'responses are not ideal for responses.

Then explain the six-month truce of June in which Hamas agreed to stop rockets attacks -and did - and Israel agreed to end the embargo - and did not.

As I've posted, Hamas pointed this out for some time, was ignored, and said 'why should they renew a truce as the embargo remains', and offered to renew it if it'd be lifted.

Israel as I understand refused to agree to this. I've posted some links with that info, do you have some links supporting your claims?

And if they could, which they can't, what good would it do?
See above - Conditions have been given for reduction of the embargo - Hamas refused to comply. Israel is also concerned about military supplies coming through for Hamas to restart the attacks

The embargo includes everything down to food and medical supplies, reports say. How are those rockets? How about Israel breaking its agreement to reduce the embargo already?

What's needed is not violent reactions, but solving problems, for Palestenians to do better.
True - where is the leaderships desire?

Lacking on all three sides (including the US) it seems.

Your 'can't reason with them' is just propaganda useful for rationalizing more war.
Should Hamas renounce their charter, it may go a way in relaxing the issues. Hamas at this point has not shown a desire to "reason"

That's a fair issue for discussion, but how about Hamas' cease fire the last six months and offer to renew with the embargo lifted - that contradicts your claim.

They were able to reason with them for the 6-month truce June to December, for example.
during the truce, problems still occured. Hamas may have been laying low to resupply. When the Truce first started, Hamas refused to fully enforce it. Remember publicy, they stated that they would not launch, but would not deter others from doing so, that it was the other right to continue the struggle. What tpe of leadership does that show?

For all practical purposes Hamas honored the cease fire with few incidents. So now you say it doesn't matter if they halt the attacks or not, they remain just as guilty because Israel can suspect them of re-supplying during the cease-fire. Who is it again that 'won't reason'? Seems like it's you.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Barack Obama
Close to 50% of P&N threads are on the conflict. War is futile. You'd think we'd all realise this after so many thousand years. Some things never change

Basically, this issue is similar to abortion in terms of the emotions that it stirs in people.

Some of the issues are:

Is Western Civilization and reason superior to a philosophy of primitive religious mysticism and barbarism?

If a group of people acts against its self interest, should we feel sorry for them when they suffer the consequences of their irrationality?

Are there some issues that can only be resolved by physical force, to the extent of having to forcibly and permanently relocate people?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: TheSnowmanIn this case, the only tangible results gained though this continued conflict is Israel's ongoing colonization of the Palestinian land in the West Bank, which has gone unabated for four decades now. If we wait around for those who insist on Israel's colonization Palestinian land, this conflict will likely last decades more until the Palestinian are reduced to tiny reservations like Native Americans are today. However, I doubt most of us want it to end like that or even realize the direction it is headed, and hence have no desire to stop it. That is how the West was won in history the US, and that is how the West Bank is being won by Israel now. Can we please put at stop to this madness now?

Could it be argued that the Palestinians and the Arab world lost all legitimate moral claim to that land when they made several attempts to exterminate and commit mass genocide against Israel and the Jews? And why would the Palestinians end up on little reservations when the Arab and Muslim world controls huge tracts of land? Surely they could accommodate their brethren that they claim to feel affection and concern for.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
I think that although your intents are good, you are the one who perpetuates this conflict. By not allowing Israel to militarily force a solution, the armed struggle continues. Any attempt to solve this solution from a view of equality between Israel and the Palestinians will forever fail - Israelis won't accept this, and Palestinians would think they could win more if they just keep on fighting.

It might take 40 years, like it has taken other Arab countries, but ultimately it will be solved. The Palestinians aren't yet ready for a solution.

I agree. Also, the only real long-term solution to this conflict is going to involve the physical relocation of the Palestinians to some other country in the Arab world. The Israelis and the Palestinians need to be separated.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Note that the orignal Zionists were not relegious at all, but rather rejected the long standing Rabinical possition that jews should live among the nations of the world until the Kingodom of Israel can be reformed though the spirt of God.

Since the Jews were being persecuted and slaughtered throughout Europe in pogroms, the notion of uniting and banding together away from the Europeans in the "Holy Land" seemed attractive.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Could it be argued that the Palestinians and the Arab world lost all legitimate moral claim to that land when they made several attempts to exterminate and commit mass genocide against Israel and the Jews?

I've seen such arguments made, but never rational ones.

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
And why would the Palestinians end up on little reservations when the Arab and Muslim world controls huge tracts of land? Surely they could accommodate their brethren that they claim to feel affection and concern for.

That would only encourage Israel to continue expanding and displacing Arabs wherever it likes. Some ardent Israel supporters suggest it should expand to well into other Arab lands. Can you imagine the conflict that would aries from that?

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Since the Jews were being persecuted and slaughtered throughout Europe in pogroms, the notion of uniting and banding together away from the Europeans in the "Holy Land" seemed attractive.

It wasn't attractive to many Jews in it's early days, just a small number of secular Jews, who rejected the tractional religious understanding that the Kingdom of Israel should return by peaceful means rather than those of might and power. Hence the reason the League of Nations thought they could establish a national Jewish homeland in some potion of Palestine without violating the rights of the existing population. Granted, the situation in Europe got far worse from there, and hence the Jewish colonization of Palestine grew far more popular than most anyone ever expected, and the conflict has spiraled out of control from there.

 

[theflyingpig]

Originally posted by: SandEagle
Can we have an ****Official Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread****?

Why? It's so much more fun to have threads covering different facets of this conflict. It warms my heart whenever I see a new one. I say, keep them separate.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

Originally posted by: Barack Obama
Close to 50% of P&N threads are on the conflict. War is futile. You'd think we'd all realise this after so many thousand years. Some things never change

Basically, this issue is similar to abortion in terms of the emotions that it stirs in people.

Some of the issues are:

Is Western Civilization and reason superior to a philosophy of primitive religious mysticism and barbarism?

If a group of people acts against its self interest, should we feel sorry for them when they suffer the consequences of their irrationality?

Are there some issues that can only be resolved by physical force, to the extent of having to forcibly and permanently relocate people?

What are we going to do about the global straw shortage after you used it all to make men?

 

[kylebisme]

:beer: