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What's the real data on China's economic boom?

mizzou

Diamond Member
Jan 2, 2008
9,734
54
91
China is known to drastically underestimate their military spending, and since the style of the gov't is fairly air-tight without much knowledge of what is going on on a national level, how can we take them seriously when they say that their economy is increasing 10 fold every year? (I dont know what the historic data is, but it is high)

I mean, didn't Soviet Russia do the same thing with 10 year - 5 year plans and on paper, it seemed they were doing great until the country collapsed unto itself amongs a myriad of shoddy industry and false reality?

I don't consider China any way similar to Russia, as they focused on agriculture aside from industry for their boom, but I can't help but feel that at some point the curtains around that country will open at some point and we won't all feel so impressed about it's gains.

Is China still a paper tiger?
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
10 fold every year not sure where that came from, i think it's more like 10%? But much of this is a facade. For example, if the US decided that it didn't give a damn about the environment, it could make cheaper products. China is destroying its environment, and not in the 'there won't be any nice plush forests left' way but like 'damn, my kids have cancer from drinking lead-water and so do everybody else's 'way.
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,137
225
106
What is fueling China ... and yes the claim is 10 fold every year.


Well, for one they have the highest country in the world graduating students engineering degrees.

Two, they have very cheap labor and LOTS of it.

Three, American is investing big time as is Japan and other countries like Germany and England in China.

Four, Their currency devalued.

 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
they are destroying their country in the process.

also the united states graduates the most engineers in the world by a huge margin, its just that a large portion of those are non-americans. China has a greater need for engineers right now, so it would make sense that they would have more of their citizens pursuing that profession
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
So China's economy is TEN TIMES greater in a year than the year prior? Crack pipes must be what they're making, nothing else.

Circle jerking aside for a moment they also have a very rural population, immature infrastructure and education.
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,137
225
106
Obviously most Americans have no clue what's going on in China. I have 70% of my investments their also, I have a lot of friends their that I talk with they all seem to be happy with whats going on. I plan to visit next year after the Olympics CF.

Mike the Idiot was suppose to say NON-Americans I think. And again he has no numbers of the ones that are graduating in China. So, he has no clue.

 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,137
225
106
Originally posted by: Skoorb
So China's economy is TEN TIMES greater in a year than the year prior? Crack pipes must be what they're making, nothing else.

Circle jerking aside for a moment they also have a very rural population, immature infrastructure and education.

No they are making your Ipods, Iphones, Not just 99% of all the shoes come from China, More then likely the very computer and keyboard and mouse you are using was made in China. But all the cell phones like Motorola, LG, Touch etc...etc... are made in China, Most of the digital camera's are made their as well.

Dell, Gateway, HP are all made in China. Microsoft Mice and Keyboards yes all made in China.

China just bought out IBM's laptop department, but gateway and dell laptops are all made their anyway.

I dear you to find anything in Office Max or Office Dept that isn't made in China.

I am almost brave enough to tell you that your fat american ass is sitting on a chair that is made in China. Go look it's printed under the seat. I'll wait. I'd love for you to walk into sears and find anything that there that isn't made in China.

Also.... All the LCD and Plasma TV's + all 95% of all the projectors DLP/LCD are made in China.

Hmmm, it appears that the crack pipes are probably only made here in the USA.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: ericlp
Originally posted by: Skoorb
So China's economy is TEN TIMES greater in a year than the year prior? Crack pipes must be what they're making, nothing else.

Circle jerking aside for a moment they also have a very rural population, immature infrastructure and education.

No they are making your Ipods, Iphones, Not just 99% of all the shoes come from China, More then likely the very computer and keyboard and mouse you are using was made in China. But all the cell phones like Motorola, LG, Touch etc...etc... are made in China, Most of the digital camera's are made their as well.

Dell, Gateway, HP are all made in China. Microsoft Mice and Keyboards yes all made in China.

China just bought out IBM's laptop department, but gateway and dell laptops are all made their anyway.

I dear you to find anything in Office Max or Office Dept that isn't made in China.

I am almost brave enough to tell you that your fat american ass is sitting on a chair that is made in China. Go look it's printed under the seat. I'll wait. I'd love for you to walk into sears and find anything that there that isn't made in China.

Also.... All the LCD and Plasma TV's + all 95% of all the projectors DLP/LCD are made in China.

Hmmm, it appears that the crack pipes are probably only made here in the USA.
China's growth, google quickly tells us, is closer to 10% than 1000%. What are you on?
I am almost brave enough to tell you that your fat american ass is sitting on a chair that is made in China.
If only bravery was congruous with brains, eh? I'm neither fat, nor was my chair made in China. I just checked: Made in USA
 

sunzt

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 2003
3,076
3
81
It's 10%. No way any country's economy can grow 10x in a year, inflation to death anyone? Should be lower this year (i say 7-8%) due to the global slowdown.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: sunzt
It's 10%. No way any country's economy can grow 10x in a year, inflation to death anyone? Should be lower this year (i say 7-8%) due to the global slowdown.
Yeah, I think Zimbabwe is actually growing way way faster than 10X/year beacuse of what you mentioned. Real growth obviously isn't even one fold let alone multiples.

 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,379
96
86
Originally posted by: ericlp
Obviously most Americans have no clue what's going on in China. I have 70% of my investments their also, I have a lot of friends their that I talk with they all seem to be happy with whats going on. I plan to visit next year after the Olympics CF.

Mike the Idiot was suppose to say NON-Americans I think. And again he has no numbers of the ones that are graduating in China. So, he has no clue.

China's stock market is down what this year? 40% or so?

Edit

Hank Seng index

Peak(nov 07) 32000
January 08 28000
Now 21000

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=^HSI&t=1y
 

ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
6,137
225
106
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
Originally posted by: ericlp
Obviously most Americans have no clue what's going on in China. I have 70% of my investments their also, I have a lot of friends their that I talk with they all seem to be happy with whats going on. I plan to visit next year after the Olympics CF.

Mike the Idiot was suppose to say NON-Americans I think. And again he has no numbers of the ones that are graduating in China. So, he has no clue.

China's stock market is down what this year? 40% or so?

Edit

Hank Seng index

Peak(nov 07) 32000
January 08 28000
Now 21000

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=^HSI&t=1y

There is a risk in everything tho. When you can get 8 to 1 dollar return just for the beginning I believe just that alone is a good thing. Tho, so be it. Just because it's down doesn't mean all the investments are down. China stocks follow American Stocks.

Tho as the dollar keeps slipping your money isn't going as far in China anymore. Tho I believe it's a safe bet as the currency is already undervalued to begin with.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
You worried about China? All they want is to be Americans - educate produce spend and live well. I think they may be the only ones self-assured enough to confront those crazy Muzzies while western cities burn, fueled with multiculturalism, human rights, bill of rights, due process, and rules of engagement.. Go China! The Chinese don't take shit from anybody... just ask the Pakistani "freedom fighters" and mujahideen fighting for the "freedom of Kashmir"... the MSM will NEVER remind you of this, but 10% of Kashmir is under Chinese occupation.

So while the cowardly mujahideen foray into the Indian part to murder civilians, kill women and children, and enjoy rapine and torture with reckless abandon, they NEVER, EVER go into the Chinese part of Kashmir.

Why? Because they are at heart chickensh*t cowards that don't really think that "God is on their side." They terrorize the peace-loving Hindus and Buddhists of India, just like they terrorize the Jews in Israel and the Christians in Sudan, Nigeria, and the Philippines: because they know that they can get away with it. They know that if they did go into Chinese Kashmir and make some mischief, the airstrikes would hit Karachi and Islamabad the NEXT DAY. The Chinese mean business. The Chinese are the new Texans regarding the old joke: "Don't ever buy toilet paper from Texas; it don't take sh*t from nobody. " I hope they spend 500 billion like us someday on offense.
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: ericlp
Obviously most Americans have no clue what's going on in China. I have 70% of my investments their also, I have a lot of friends their that I talk with they all seem to be happy with whats going on. I plan to visit next year after the Olympics CF.

Mike the Idiot was suppose to say NON-Americans I think. And again he has no numbers of the ones that are graduating in China. So, he has no clue.

because you had tons of numbers, idiot. i bet china is graduating tons of engineers which is why our engineering schools are full of chinese students.

coming from the dude talking about china growing tenfold every year, you clearly have no credibility on the issue. China manufactures cheap commodity items, thats about it. We build trains, factory machinery, construction equipment, farm equipment, planes, ships etc.

china makes shoes and keyboards

and you expect me to be concerned
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: Zebo
You worried about China? All they want is to be Americans - educate produce spend and live well. I think they may be the only ones self-assured enough to confront those crazy Muzzies while western cities burn, fueled with multiculturalism, human rights, bill of rights, due process, and rules of engagement.. Go China! The Chinese don't take shit from anybody... just ask the Pakistani "freedom fighters" and mujahideen fighting for the "freedom of Kashmir"... the MSM will NEVER remind you of this, but 10% of Kashmir is under Chinese occupation.

So while the cowardly mujahideen foray into the Indian part to murder civilians, kill women and children, and enjoy rapine and torture with reckless abandon, they NEVER, EVER go into the Chinese part of Kashmir.

Why? Because they are at heart chickensh*t cowards that don't really think that "God is on their side." They terrorize the peace-loving Hindus and Buddhists of India, just like they terrorize the Jews in Israel and the Christians in Sudan, Nigeria, and the Philippines: because they know that they can get away with it. They know that if they did go into Chinese Kashmir and make some mischief, the airstrikes would hit Karachi and Islamabad the NEXT DAY. The Chinese mean business. The Chinese are the new Texans regarding the old joke: "Don't ever buy toilet paper from Texas; it don't take sh*t from nobody. " I hope they spend 500 billion like us someday on offense.

speaking of crackpipes, sup?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: ericlp
Obviously most Americans have no clue what's going on in China. I have 70% of my investments their also, I have a lot of friends their that I talk with they all seem to be happy with whats going on. I plan to visit next year after the Olympics CF.

Mike the Idiot was suppose to say NON-Americans I think. And again he has no numbers of the ones that are graduating in China. So, he has no clue.

70% of your investments there? are you kidding me? Even if that's true their rate of inflation is quickly approaching 10% and it will go higher as the govt phases out fuel subsidies. I wouldn't be surprised if you see 20% annual inflation very quickly. This could possibly lead to a revolt.

LOL, 70%. That's such a stupid idea from a financial viewpoint. Their markets are in a shambles. 8 to 1 return just by starting? Where the fuck do you get that?

10 fold growth? So you're telling me that they were a 600bn dollar economy last year and are now a 6.9tr economy now?

I swear, the internet and communication in general is dangerous in the hands of the mentally insane and intellectually challenged.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: ericlp
Obviously most Americans have no clue what's going on in China. I have 70% of my investments their also, I have a lot of friends their that I talk with they all seem to be happy with whats going on. I plan to visit next year after the Olympics CF.

Mike the Idiot was suppose to say NON-Americans I think. And again he has no numbers of the ones that are graduating in China. So, he has no clue.

because you had tons of numbers, idiot. i bet china is graduating tons of engineers which is why our engineering schools are full of chinese students.

coming from the dude talking about china growing tenfold every year, you clearly have no credibility on the issue. China manufactures cheap commodity items, thats about it. We build trains, factory machinery, construction equipment, farm equipment, planes, ships etc.

china makes shoes and keyboards

and you expect me to be concerned

They have some industrial equipment coming out of there too. I put in a JinMing extruder line at a plant not to long ago. It was about 1/3 the price of a Cincinnati or a Davis-Standard from what the plant was telling me. But sure, most of their stuff is commodity items.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
I put my computer together myself. Maybe all the parts were made in china, but I put it together without the help of any chinese.

China also makes more pollution than any other country on earth.
 

neodyn55

Senior member
Oct 16, 2007
230
2
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: ericlp
Obviously most Americans have no clue what's going on in China. I have 70% of my investments their also, I have a lot of friends their that I talk with they all seem to be happy with whats going on. I plan to visit next year after the Olympics CF.

Mike the Idiot was suppose to say NON-Americans I think. And again he has no numbers of the ones that are graduating in China. So, he has no clue.

70% of your investments there? are you kidding me? Even if that's true their rate of inflation is quickly approaching 10% and it will go higher as the govt phases out fuel subsidies. I wouldn't be surprised if you see 20% annual inflation very quickly. This could possibly lead to a revolt.

LOL, 70%. That's such a stupid idea from a financial viewpoint. Their markets are in a shambles. 8 to 1 return just by starting? Where the fuck do you get that?

10 fold growth? So you're telling me that they were a 600bn dollar economy last year and are now a 6.9tr economy now?

I swear, the internet and communication in general is dangerous in the hands of the mentally insane and intellectually challenged.

LK, you missed '"sparky"

:p
 

imported_Lothar

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2006
4,559
1
0
Originally posted by: ericlp
Obviously most Americans have no clue what's going on in China. I have 70% of my investments their also, I have a lot of friends their that I talk with they all seem to be happy with whats going on.
...
There is a risk in everything tho. When you can get 8 to 1 dollar return just for the beginning I believe just that alone is a good thing. Tho, so be it. Just because it's down doesn't mean all the investments are down. China stocks follow American Stocks.

Tho as the dollar keeps slipping your money isn't going as far in China anymore. Tho I believe it's a safe bet as the currency is already undervalued to begin with.

I never realized such idiocy existed on the internet.
 

naddicott

Senior member
Jul 3, 2002
793
0
76
A stat I saw mentioned a week or two ago - their "middle class" (not sure the definition used) is almost the size of the entire U.S. population.

Looking for an actual source on the subject, I dig up this
Present estimates of ?middle class? in China range from 100 million to 247 million, depending on how much income renders one ?middle class.? Assuming that an income of about$9000 is necessary to be considered middle class, China could have over 600 million middle class citizens by 2015. The China State Information Center, by contrast, considers those earning 50,000 yuan ($6,227) per year to be middle class ? and expects 25% of the populace to qualify by 2010. Of course, the level of affluence commanded by each tier depends on where the household is situated. For example, to be considered middle class in Shanghai, China's most expensive city, a family would need to have a higher income than if it were living inland in Chengdu or Chongqing. Roughly 13.5 percent of the China?s population now belongs to the middle class.

While China will still possess a lower average per capita income than the United States, it should be noted that disposable income stretches farther in China, on average, than it does in the United States or Europe. A significant portion of household budgets are expended on services, ranging from hair salons to meal at restaurants to travel. Services are usually labor-intensive tasks whose cost is attuned, in part, to the prevailing wage. In China, due to the vast supply of labor, wages are significantly lower than in the West. Thus, the cost of providing many services is lower and, as a result, prices for many services are lower. A visit to the manicurist might cost $1-2 in China, when a similar visit in the United States might cost $10 or more. Thus, smaller incomes in China can provide a standard of living equivalent to those with a far larger income in the West.

Estimates of the size and growth rate of China?s middle class vary. Roughly half of China's projected urban population will be middle class in 2025. Unlike the United States, where income typically peaks between the ages of 45 to 54, it is predicted that the wealthiest consumers in China will be between 25 to 44 years old because the younger generation will be more highly educated.

The meteoric rise in China?s middle class is tied to dramatic increases in its per capita income, which is growing at a nearly unprecedented rate. The first industrial revolution created a 250% increase in per capita income over a 100 year period. The second industrial revolution triggered 350% per capita income growth over 60 years. By comparison, China is on track to create a 700% growth in per capita income in just 20 years.

Chinese households currently save 25% of their post-tax income, according to the China Statistical Yearbook. A survey by McKinsey indicated that this high savings rate was driven, in part, by Chinese citizens? belief that they need to set aside funds for retirement and healthcare expenses. If these expenses do not rise as rapidly as income levels, then Chinese consumers may have a surplus of funds that they are willing to spend. And, if health care costs do rise, the Chinese healthcare sector may be an attractive investment.

The World Bank defines ?higher middle income? economies as those where per capita annual income exceeds $3000 to $4000. Once annual incomes cross this $3000 threshold, there tends to be an accelerated growth in that country?s middle class. This would result in a middle class six times higher than today, representing 28% of total Chinese population. It will not be until 2050 that China is predicted to reach a per capita net income of $30,000, the level of most Western countries today.
 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,903
2
76
whats been interesting about China's economic boom is that it doesn't transfer much to the stock market. Before 2006,2007, it was not matching the country's growth. I read that if you had invested $10,000 in both China and India in 2002, you would be sitting on a lot more pile of money from India then you would China. Of course this was written before both stock markets collapsed in the past 6 months.

My guess in why you make less money in stocks in China is because of their restrictions on foreigners buying shares. I think they have like 4 different stock classes, 2 for residents and 2 for foreigners. And one of the classes for foreigners is sorta worthless.
 

ohnoes

Senior member
Oct 11, 2007
269
0
0
Originally posted by: Slew Foot
China's stock market is down what this year? 40% or so?

Edit

Hank Seng index

Peak(nov 07) 32000
January 08 28000
Now 21000

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=^HSI&t=1y

That's the HK exchange. I think the shanghai exchange is a better representation, but it shows roughly the same decline. ~50% since the Nov high, and ~25% since 1 year ago.