what's the purpose of praying?

[JEDIYoda]

When you're omnipotent and omniscient, they're the same thing.

No they are not the same thing....

 

[Ruptga]

No they are not the same thing....

Yeah huh

 

[Perknose]

When you're omnipotent and omniscient, they're the same thing.

I can see why you might think so, it's tricky, but I'ma go with, "No."

As an OO, you've got to know these things.

In times of theological and epistemological uncertainty like these I, of course, turn to the all-knowing and never shallow Wiki.

In the monotheistic philosophies of Abrahamic religions, omnipotence is often listed as one of a deity's characteristics among many, including omniscience, omnipresence, and omnibenevolence.

I mean, sure, the unwashed and untutored might wish to contend that since omniscience is a power it is subsumed in ominipotence.

Wrong, peasant!

St. Thommy to the A is here to enlighten you:

St. Thomas Aquinas acknowledged difficulty in comprehending the Deity's power: "All confess that God is omnipotent; but it seems difficult to explain in what His omnipotence precisely consists: for there may be doubt as to the precise meaning of the word 'all' when we say that God can do all things. If, however, we consider the matter aright, since power is said in reference to possible things, this phrase, 'God can do all things,' is rightly understood to mean that God can do all things that are possible; and for this reason He is said to be omnipotent."[4] In the scholastic understanding, omnipotence is generally understood to be compatible with certain limitations or restrictions. A proposition that is necessarily true is one whose negation is self-contradictory.

(Bolding mine.)

 

[Fritzo]

I'm sure Thor's hammer could beat something, anyway.

That guy's junk is huge and I feel totally inadequate now.

Also, I looked at his junk. Am I gay now?

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

When you're omnipotent and omniscient, they're the same thing.

Logic not found.

 

[Ruptga]

Logic not found.

See #102, I put as much effort into that as you did into this.

I can see why you might think so, it's tricky, but I'ma go with, "No."

As an OO, you've got to know these things.

In times of theological and epistemological uncertainty like these I, of course, turn to the all-knowing and never shallow Wiki.



I mean, sure, the unwashed and untutored might wish to contend that since omniscience is a power it is subsumed in ominipotence.

Wrong, peasant!

St. Thommy to the A is here to enlighten you:



(Bolding mine.)

That's fine and all, but omnipotence* is not the same thing as omnipotence. And if we're going to say that God can do anything that's possible... then what's possible? It all strikes me as very ad hoc.

IMO that's all pretty academic though. A more practical question is why a being that can do anything and that ostensibly cares about us only bothers to communicate through dreams and such. Frankly, if God existed and really cared about us they would personally drop by from time to time. They obviously know how to find each of us, and they literally have all the time in the world. It's even written that Moses talked with God face to face, the way that a man talks with a friend, so unless Exodus isn't canon anymore what's stopping them from doing that with every one of us? Even supposing that they can't manifest in more than one place at one time, they could easily have one in-the-flesh visit with each person within their lifetime. Even supposing that most of us "aren't worthy", why don't we have records of this happening with popes and evangelists? Occam's razor seems to suggest that God either isn't out there, isn't worthy of the title, or doesn't really care.

Not that any of this really has anything to do with the OP.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

I'm still waiting to hear how omnipotence equates with responsibility.

 

[Ruptga]

I'm still waiting to hear how omnipotence equates with responsibility.

Oh well since you asked... When is a person not responsible? It's when they had no way of knowing or no way of stopping what would happen, or both. If God is omniscient then the first condition is impossible, and if God is omnipotent then the second condition is impossible. Together, they mean that it's impossible differentiate between God making something happen and God allowing something to happen. I thought my quote from The Watchmen spelled it out, but there it is.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Oh well since you asked... When is a person not responsible? It's when they had no way of knowing or no way of stopping what would happen, or both. If God is omniscient then the first condition is impossible, and if God is omnipotent then the second condition is impossible. Together, they mean that it's impossible differentiate between God making something happen and God allowing something to happen. I thought my quote from The Watchmen spelled it out, but there it is.

No one, God included, is responsible for what they didn't do. You might not like the result but, it doesn't carry the onus of responsibility. Responsibility doesn't come from knowledge, it comes from accepting it. God gave us free will in this existence which includes the ability to destroy our own lives and those of others. Further you extend the limitations of human existence to God and try to judge him by those standards. You seem to be angry at God rather than yourself, a very human reaction.

 

[elitejp]

LMK when an amputee, or someone born with a severe physical birth defect, is spontaneously healed.


Also give thanks to Jesus for giving her the opportunity to think she was facing imminent death for awhile. That's always a friendly thing to do.
If a human threatens someone else with death, we consider it a crime.
Jesus gets a big pat on the back and gratitude.

I would love to see that happen. However we are talking about being healed. Healing consists of recovering from a diseased condition. And the verses Ive seen in the Bible such as James 5 says "is any sick among you....the prayer of faith will save the sick"
You dont see people who are missing a limb go around saying im sick, because they arent. They dont need a healing they need a miracle. Ive only heard of such cases. Ive never seen one for myself but I have seen healings.

Heres another example. My friend was in serious pain and went to the doctors, he had kidney stones. Well the doctor prescribed medicine and my friend passed a couple with serious pain. He went back to the doctors and they used an ultrasound and could see that their were quite a few more. And large ones at that. They scheduled an appointment the next day to break them up but it was thanksgiving and we were overseas and he had already made plans to invite the expat community over to his house for thanksgiving. Seeing as I was going to his house anyways he requested prayer. Well that day he could barely move. I prayed for him and the next day he went to the doctors. The doctors first checked for stones using an ultrasound. they couldnt find any. They thought the machine was broken because they had the xrays printed out and in hand showing that he had kidney stones. So the doctor tried the machine on himself. Looked like everything was working properly. Tried it on my friend, nothing. Called for a pregnant lady to come in and tried it on her, no problem. Tried it on my friend again and no kidney stones. Well the doctors just scratched their head and told him that there wasnt any stones. Again he was smiling ear to ear as that problem went away and he was feeling great.

Just go to any church and ask if anybody has prayed and seen it actually work. Ask for things that just couldn't naturally be explained. I guarantee you that you will have people all over raising their hands and willing to share.

Ive seen this stuff happen again and again. Although it would be great to see more but people getting better by hospitals, medicine or prayer or a combination its all accomplishing one thing, healing. And thats whats important.

 

[IronWing]

No one, God included, is responsible for what they didn't do. You might not like the result but, it doesn't carry the onus of responsibility. Responsibility doesn't come from knowledge, it comes from accepting it. God gave us free will in this existence which includes the ability to destroy our own lives and those of others. Further you extend the limitations of human existence to God and try to judge him by those standards. You seem to be angry at God rather than yourself, a very human reaction.

Your god is a strange construct indeed. The god you've constructed is a god that knowingly created creatures that would sin yet your god is somehow not responsible for this action. Further, the ultimate cop-out, "I can't defend my god's conduct as it violates my own moral code so I will declare my god not subject to my code." Lame as lame can possibly be. Why would anyone but possibly you be angry with the god you have constructed?

 

[Markbnj]

Just go to any church and ask if anybody has prayed and seen it actually work. Ask for things that just couldn't naturally be explained. I guarantee you that you will have people all over raising their hands and willing to share.

That's called a self-selecting sample.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

How is the creator responsible for our actions freely chosen? My God does not require nor, needs any defense of his actions. You also still haven't linked lack of action and responsibility.

 

[bbhaag]

friend's dad is dying of cancer. she requests we pray for him to get better.

common sense tells me, if God really cared..He wouldnt/shouldnt gave the father cancer in the first place. so why should we care now.

It's to give hope you jackass. She's losing her dad. I fucking swear empathy is a lost emotion.

 

[IronWing]

How is the creator responsible for our actions freely chosen? My God does not require nor, needs any defense of his actions. You also still haven't linked lack of action and responsibility.

Of course your god doesn't need any defense in your eyes; you created it that way. You've assigned the attribute of "needing no defense" to your god so that is that. The more reasonable question is "why did you choose to create a god with this attribute?" Did the act of creating a god that is infallible and also happens to agree with you in many (all) things bolster your confidence in the correctness of your positions?

 

[disappoint]

friend's dad is dying of cancer. she requests we pray for him to get better.

common sense tells me, if God really cared..He wouldnt/shouldnt gave the father cancer in the first place. so why should we care now.

It's to give hope you jackass. She's losing her dad. I fucking swear empathy is a lost emotion.

And how much empathy have you for the OP who requested help nicely with his dilemma? Maybe a few more Hail Marys and Our Fathers will help you to find some empathy. You know because it's helped you so well thus far.

Just try not to get too creative with your prayers and attempt sneaking in some 'jackass' or 'I fucking swear' incantations because who knows what that will produce. Who knows. Maybe the DSM V or a poster on the internet will fall out of the sky and you'll receive a free demo on emotional control from the one who spake thusly long long ago in a land far far away...

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Of course your god doesn't need any defense in your eyes; you created it that way. You've assigned the attribute of "needing no defense" to your god so that is that. The more reasonable question is "why did you choose to create a god with this attribute?" Did the act of creating a god that is infallible and also happens to agree with you in many (all) things bolster your confidence in the correctness of your positions?

wut?
I choose to believe in God. I'm STILL waiting for a connection between lack of action and responsibility. Perhaps your god of logic isn't up to the task?

 

[bbhaag]

And how much empathy have you for the OP who requested help nicely with his dilemma?

He didn't have a dilemma.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I'm still waiting to hear how omnipotence equates with responsibility.

That's actually pretty easy, but it assumes that omnipotence includes infallible foreknowledge.

When a creator chooses to create precisely one universe out of the infinitely many universes it is capable of creating -- all the while foreknowing infallibly the totality of events that will unfold as the consequence of its choice -- it assumes responsibility for those events becoming real. It is as though the creator is a perfect marksman -- if he knows exactly where his bullet is going every time he fires, then he had to have intended it to hit whatever it happens to hit.

It makes no sense to say "God did not intend X" when you believe that he knew fully well that X would happen when he created X's universe.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

How is the creator responsible for our actions freely chosen? My God does not require nor, needs any defense of his actions. You also still haven't linked lack of action and responsibility.

Oh, and there's also this.

http://infidels.org/library/modern/mark_vuletic/five.html

 

[elitejp]

That's called a self-selecting sample.

well who else do you think actually believes that praying to God is a good thing and will result in an answer to the prayer. People who dont believe in God and prayer arent really the types that would be praying to God with expectancy for results. :whiste:

 

[disappoint]

When you're omnipotent and omniscient, they're the same thing.

I can see why you might think so, it's tricky, but I'ma go with, "No."

Well that is your opinion. Many may share it, including me. But Lucille says you're wrong. You know who Lucille is? Friend of mine. She's always right. Never seen her make a mistake. She's infallible. I'm sure of it, and many people around the world agree with me.

You don't want to make the mistake of going against someone infallible do you? Bad things might happen to you and I'm very concerned for your well being. In this life and the next. I'm concerned for your well being because your life may intertwine with mine and I want to make sure of my own well being as well.

https://youtu.be/EUeQXmYVamA?t=1551

 

[disappoint]

He didn't have a dilemma.

His dilemma was that his friend asked for prayer and he doesn't believe in prayer. He wants to help his friend and he doesn't know how to answer her request while preserving what he holds as true in his mind while not offending her because of what she holds true in her mind.

How is that not a dilemma?

 

[bbhaag]

Right on man. The ability to shut up and empathize is a rare human attribute. He should do that for his friend.

 

[IronWing]

wut?
I choose to believe in God. I'm STILL waiting for a connection between lack of action and responsibility. Perhaps your god of logic isn't up to the task?

The god you have constructed has these attributes:
1) Omnipotent and omniscient
2) A creator god
3) Unchanging

This god created a world where cruelty and suffering would exist. This god knew this would be the case when it acted to create this world. From small personal slights to genocidal cruelty, it was all baked in the cake by the god you've created. Therefore, that god is 100% responsible for the outcome of its action. In a world created by an omnipotent/omniscient god, there is no free will as every aspect of the world was conceived and known to the creator god.

Again, the more interesting question, "why would someone choose to create a god like this?" Passing the buck?