whats the point of E85 gas anymore?

[gorcorps]

I was talking about E-85 flex fuel, and yes it was suppose to be cheaper than E10 and decrease our dependency on foreign oil. so i dont know why you brought up E15. go troll someplace else.

Dude... What the fuck? Did something happen at work or home? I don't see you act like such a flagrant asshole that often so something must have caused it.

Calm down

 

[LTC8K6]

I meant in Flex-Fuel vehicles you may need to make maintenance changes. Such as more frequent oil changes. You may also experience hard starting in cold weather with E85.

 

[Markbnj]

I was talking about E-85 flex fuel, and yes it was suppose to be cheaper than E10 and decrease our dependency on foreign oil. so i dont know why you brought up E15. go troll someplace else.

I originally misinterpreted the E-85, and attempted to make the general point that NJ had mandated a certain level of ethanol in all our gas, and it hadn't led to any reduction in cost. I could have explained what I meant if you hadn't acted like a complete asshole.

 

[_Rick_]

E85 is nice if you have an engine that can exploit the high compression before detonation it allows. Gets you an additional 5-10% of performance over running premium fuel, while not being overly dangerous to handle, or very expensive. Good in some motorsports, especialyl drag racing and other non-endurance racing.
Outside that use case, it's nice if you have cheap ethanol, and engines that don't eat themselves when using it. Not very helpful anywhere else.

 

[Exterous]

E85 was never about anything but money for the corn lobby.

Yeah and the government has terrible timing too. I don't know how much it would affect pricing but trying to increase the ethanol gas presence at a time when corn crop yield is far far below predictions doesn't seem like a very good idea at all. It was down 23% in 2012 and has only very recently started getting better

Its already had a significant effect on meat prices but lets go ahead and use it in a program with no real benefits to anyone but a very select few

 

[dave_the_nerd]

The only good thing about traveling to WI (well, besides hanging out with the grandparents) is getting ethanol-free 93-octane and not having to stop for gas on the way home because my mileage is suddenly ~20% higher. (2007 Ford Focus. Nothing fancy, but it hates E10.)

Screw ethanol, man.

 

[Ackmed]

Was the point that it should be cheaper? Here in Jersey we have a mandated 15% ethanol for all grades of gasoline, and it never seemed any cheaper to me.

My car would die using 15%. I use only 100% gas, but there are only two places that carry it where I live. And it costs more than any other kind. Sucks, but worth it.

 

[mmntech]

E85 isn't sold in Canada to my knowledge but vehicles that run it are. Had to explain to many a person what the logo on the back of the GM trucks meant. E10 is mandatory here though. I don't think you can get ethanol free gas, at least I've never seen it.

The general scientific consensus now IIRC is that ethanol is just as bad if not worse for the environment than petroleum based fuels. Corn based ethanol especially, since corn is a very energy intensive plant to grow. Takes a lot of nutrients out of the soil, which have to be replenished by chemical fertilizers. It requires a lot of land and water as well. Not to mention that converting a food crop to a fuel is rarely a good idea. The problem is that corn farmers, largely thanks to misguided government subsidies, get more money growing corn for fuel than they would for food.

Ethanol is also a less energy dense fuel than gasoline is, so you have to burn more of it. So it really makes you wonder if there is any net CO2 savings at all.

E85 is nice if you have an engine that can exploit the high compression before detonation it allows. Gets you an additional 5-10% of performance over running premium fuel, while not being overly dangerous to handle, or very expensive. Good in some motorsports, especialyl drag racing and other non-endurance racing.
Outside that use case, it's nice if you have cheap ethanol, and engines that don't eat themselves when using it. Not very helpful anywhere else.

Doesn't drag racing use methanol? It's less energy dense than ethanol but easier to manufacture.

 

[Jimzz]

E85 isn't sold in Canada to my knowledge but vehicles that run it are. Had to explain to many a person what the logo on the back of the GM trucks meant. E10 is mandatory here though. I don't think you can get ethanol free gas, at least I've never seen it.

The general scientific consensus now IIRC is that ethanol is just as bad if not worse for the environment than petroleum based fuels. Corn based ethanol especially, since corn is a very energy intensive plant to grow. Takes a lot of nutrients out of the soil, which have to be replenished by chemical fertilizers. It requires a lot of land and water as well. Not to mention that converting a food crop to a fuel is rarely a good idea. The problem is that corn farmers, largely thanks to misguided government subsidies, get more money growing corn for fuel than they would for food.

Ethanol is also a less energy dense fuel than gasoline is, so you have to burn more of it. So it really makes you wonder if there is any net CO2 savings at all.



Doesn't drag racing use methanol? It's less energy dense than ethanol but easier to manufacture.

Here ya go, see if anything is near you.
http://pure-gas.org/

 

[silverpig]

E85 isn't sold in Canada to my knowledge but vehicles that run it are. Had to explain to many a person what the logo on the back of the GM trucks meant. E10 is mandatory here though. I don't think you can get ethanol free gas, at least I've never seen it.

The general scientific consensus now IIRC is that ethanol is just as bad if not worse for the environment than petroleum based fuels. Corn based ethanol especially, since corn is a very energy intensive plant to grow. Takes a lot of nutrients out of the soil, which have to be replenished by chemical fertilizers. It requires a lot of land and water as well. Not to mention that converting a food crop to a fuel is rarely a good idea. The problem is that corn farmers, largely thanks to misguided government subsidies, get more money growing corn for fuel than they would for food.

Ethanol is also a less energy dense fuel than gasoline is, so you have to burn more of it. So it really makes you wonder if there is any net CO2 savings at all.



Doesn't drag racing use methanol? It's less energy dense than ethanol but easier to manufacture.

It is, but it is very rare. My dad had an E85 flex truck and found one E85 station near where he lives on the west coast. It's not along his regular route, and the manual says that you shouldn't switch back and forth between E85 and standard gasoline frequently, but rather switch only when your tank is empty. Basically you want to run either E15 or E85, not a mix of the two that ends up at E50 or whatever.

So yeah, he never used it because of that.

 

[skimple]

I don't think you can get ethanol free gas, at least I've never seen it.

If you have any lakes near you, check the stations nearby. There's been a huge backlash against E10 and E15 from watercraft owners that are seeing their engines dissolve away because they weren't engineered to use that fuel.

Around here, most of the marinas and many gas stations near the water offer ethanol free "Premium" gas. It more expensive, but cheaper than dropping thousands on a new motor.

 

[Markbnj]

My car would die using 15%. I use only 100% gas, but there are only two places that carry it where I live. And it costs more than any other kind. Sucks, but worth it.

It plays hell with small engines, too. I don't understand all the chemistry, but apparently ethanol is hydrophilic, or something like that, and helps build up moisture in the fuel. There are additives that do a good job of reversing the effect.

 

[Hugo Drax]

According to Wikipedia, E85 Flex is 85% ethanol. I've never seen it around here, and glossing over the wiki, it looks like you need a special engine to run it. In any case, it's another failed socialist program.

Socialism for the rich you mean.

 

[lxskllr]

Socialism for the rich you mean.

That's how we do it over here. The "free market" is an illusion created to deceive the commoners into thinking they just didn't try hard enough to get ahead, while the rich suck up those sweet socialist dollars.

 

[LTC8K6]

IIRC, premium gasoline in Canada is often ethanol free. Shell comes to mind.

 

[OutHouse]

I have not seen pure gas in a long time. So driving home from a thanksgiving road trip i was surprised to see this. Pic taken 30 nov 13 in Hays Kansas

 

[smackababy]

If you have any lakes near you, check the stations nearby. There's been a huge backlash against E10 and E15 from watercraft owners that are seeing their engines dissolve away because they weren't engineered to use that fuel.

Around here, most of the marinas and many gas stations near the water offer ethanol free "Premium" gas. It more expensive, but cheaper than dropping thousands on a new motor.

Be careful where you get this gas from, as it can be extremely more expensive. I know a guy that owns a jet ski rental in Texas and he makes 90% of his money selling gasoline. He has pumps that can be used while in the water and charges over $20 a gallon. Boaters would rather pay that mark up than take their boat out of the water I guess.

 

[vi edit]

With as little as the E85 stuff is actually used, I question how "stale" it is sitting in the station tanks waiting to be used.

 

[Scarpozzi]

I'm not sure why they even run 10% ethanol anymore, though I understand they often cut it with other detergents and additives. I wouldn't doubt it though if the refineries are trying to cut fuel economy if they can...

My opinion (and I'm on the Internet, so I must be right),
1. E85 is a failure as a primary fuel. Corn is more important for food than it is for fuel...there should be better sugar-yeilding crops for use and costs are currently higher to produce it than oil.
2. The government will continue to fund it (maybe to give it a long-term shot)
3. We should embrace it simply because it is another fuel option....despite the top 3 being negatives, I always like the concept of competition.

 

[Scarpozzi]

Be careful where you get this gas from, as it can be extremely more expensive. I know a guy that owns a jet ski rental in Texas and he makes 90% of his money selling gasoline. He has pumps that can be used while in the water and charges over $20 a gallon. Boaters would rather pay that mark up than take their boat out of the water I guess.

I have a boathouse/dock on a lake around here. My boat stays on a lift year around....

I have a 20 gallon tank on the boat. It's a pain to fill it up using 5 gallon cans. Typically gas prices are $1.00-1.50/gallon higher at the marina....but it's a full service pump. I pay this a few times a summer for convenience and don't have a problem with it.

The marina prices for food and beer are far higher than their markup for gasoline.

 

[IGBT]

it was always eco-KOOK liberal mythology that it was somehow better. the products of combustion are worse and it has less BTU's per gallon resulting in lower mileage. And ran up the prices of grain based food supplies. Lies about lies.

 

[Meghan54]

It plays hell with small engines, too. I don't understand all the chemistry, but apparently ethanol is hydrophilic, or something like that, and helps build up moisture in the fuel. There are additives that do a good job of reversing the effect.

First, once ethanol has absorbed any moisture, there's no product on the planet that'll reverse the effect.

Second, while ethanol is hydrophilic, it doesn't grab moisture out of the air and absorb it, contrary to the hyper scare-isms floating around. Ethanol will, on the other hand, absorb the water that condenses in the fuel tank during its daily heating/cooling cycle. That's where the water gets introduced.

Third, ethanol has been around for over 20 years. True, if you haven't put alcohol resistant fuel lines and/or gaskets in your engine (think outboards and small engines), you will have a problem. But once that's done, very little problems are created IF you follow a couple of common sense precautions with ethanol-laced gas.

Ethanol-laced gas can and will oxidize rather quickly, leaving very low octane gas behind. This is why you use a stabilizer in gas that'll sit for extended periods of time in cans or the gas tank. Lots of people with outboards and/or small engined equipment (mowers, chain saws, etc.) fail to understand this and act upon it. Left sitting for months, you end up with something akin to 80 octane gas when the ethanol converts to worthless liquid and the engine runs horribly, if at all, and can gum up the carb. Stabilizers, such as Seafoam and StaBil, prevent ethanol from degrading, so your gas stays "fresh".

This was taken from a webinar put on by Mercury Marine and talked about ethanol myths, which included the "water absorption" myth:

MYTH: E10 Gasoline pulls water directly out of the air:

–There is no active transfer mechanism for ethanol molecules to reach out and “grab” water molecules out of the air. Under normal storage conditions, even in a vented fuel tank it just does not happen at a level or rate that is relevant.

–The primary cause of water collecting in fuel tanks is condensation from humid air. This water runs under the fuel and collects in the bottom of the tank. The volume of air that can move into the tank is reduced when the tank is kept full.

And during the webinar, Mercury also said this:

After the transition period from E0, E10 may actually be a superior marine fuel as it tends to keep low levels of water moving through the fuel system, keeping the system “dry”.

And remember, there's no bottle of anything that can reverse ethanol problems, esp. with oxidized gas. Then again, don't always assume the problem is with ethanol.

Heck, I've been running boats for more than 30 years of all sorts of vintages and have yet to have the dreaded ethanol problems. Of course, I do keep my gas tanks full, treat with a stabilizer, and use alcohol resistant fuel lines.

 

[Markbnj]

Ethanol-laced gas can and will oxidize rather quickly, leaving very low octane gas behind. This is why you use a stabilizer in gas that'll sit for extended periods of time in cans or the gas tank. Lots of people with outboards and/or small engined equipment (mowers, chain saws, etc.) fail to understand this and act upon it. Left sitting for months, you end up with something akin to 80 octane gas when the ethanol converts to worthless liquid and the engine runs horribly, if at all, and can gum up the carb. Stabilizers, such as Seafoam and StaBil, prevent ethanol from degrading, so your gas stays "fresh".

That's great info. I'm sure this is precisely what the Startron additive I'm using must be doing. The guy at the small engine shop got the explanation of why and how wrong, but otherwise he seems to have given good advice.

 

[Colt45]

The only good thing about traveling to WI (well, besides hanging out with the grandparents) is getting ethanol-free 93-octane and not having to stop for gas on the way home because my mileage is suddenly ~20% higher. (2007 Ford Focus. Nothing fancy, but it hates E10.)

Screw ethanol, man.

So fuel with 97% of the energy of straight gas gives you 80% of the mileage?

kinda doubt that.

 

[lxskllr]

So fuel with 97% of the energy of straight gas gives you 80% of the mileage?

kinda doubt that.

I have no opinion on his claim specifically, but energy is easy to waste. In fact, it's easier to waste than it is to use. Simple tuning can drastically affect consumption, and I'd expect a car tuned to petrol to perform differently on alcohol. If your statement is correct, the *best* you'll do is a 3% loss, but it could be much worse.