What's the point of a superset?

[happyguy155]

If I were lifting to build strength, benchpressing 5-7 reps for 3 sets near my max, what's the point in dropping down to do pushups right after?

If you are lifting for pure strength, why mix in an exercise that builds the muscles in a different way RIGHT after? If I were just working on size and definition, are supersets helpful?

 

[KoolDrew]

In your example you'd be limited by fatigue in the second movement since your working the same muscle group. Supersetting two movements that work opposing muscle groups (bench press, rest 90 seconds, row, rest 90 seconds, repeat) can work, but I personally only see it as a way to save time.

Drop sets can work depending on a a host of variables, mainly by using occlusion to keep fibers fatigued after you've reached maximum recruitment and that's essentially what you're doing by switching to pushups right after (because it works the same muscle groups). In the end you'd get a similar growth stimulus with half the volume, but intensity has to be kept high, form solid, etc. Most people don't train this way, nor do they know how, which is why I recommend straight sets. For an advanced bodybuilder those approaches can be used and have been used with success. Just look at DC training and their use of rest pause sets.

 

[Whisper]

My definition of "superset" has always involved the type of routine KoolDrew mentioned--with opposing (or at least different) muscle groups. I superset during my arm day to keep my heart rate up, and to prevent the workout from taking more than ~1 hour. If I'm REALLY in a hurry, I can completely skip my ab routine, bump the rest down to 10-15 seconds between sets, and be finished in 45 minutes.

 

[AznAnarchy99]

Saves a lot of time. Depending on the exercise it also works as cardio. I do superset/circuits all the time with 2-7 exercises one after another with no stop until the set is done. I gained a lot of strength and lost a lot of fat doing that. It helped a lot as well when I was doing jujitsu because with my circuits I was doing exercises for my entire body. When you roll in jujitsu, you're not just using chest, legs, arms at once but your entire body.

Cater your exercises to your goals though. If you're working out to body build and get big and no other reason, it might not be as beneficial. As for me, I do it for overall strength and fitness. Being big alone doesnt help at all if I cant roll for more than 2 minutes without dying for breath.

One of my 5 workout circuits would probably take about 30-45 min and I would go in and do a few 2-3 supersets after. It'd be like:

1. Alternating dumbbell chest on swiss ball
2. Lunges with dumbbells.
3. Single legged back rows.
4. Thai Clinch swiss ball roll outs
5. Deadlift to clean to shoulder press

Non stop til I do all 5, then rest, then again.

 

[happyguy155]

ok thanks guys. I really should've researched a little on what a "superset" is before posting. What I'm asking about is called a drop set, I believe.

Dropping to maybe 15% weight (pushups) after doing close to your max say 85% (bench). What does this accomplish?

Also, when I do shoulder workouts I usually drop weight in the first and second set. For example, from 35 lbs (10 rep) to 25 lbs (6-7ish) to 20 (6-7ish). I do it because I feel a better "burn" during and after the workout so I believe I'm getting better results by working harder, but I'm not really sure what I'm accomplishing!

 

[SociallyChallenged]

ok thanks guys. I really should've researched a little on what a "superset" is before posting. What I'm asking about is called a drop set, I believe.

Dropping to maybe 15% weight (pushups) after doing close to your max say 85% (bench). What does this accomplish?

Also, when I do shoulder workouts I usually drop weight in the first and second set. For example, from 35 lbs (10 rep) to 25 lbs (6-7ish) to 20 (6-7ish). I do it because I feel a better "burn" during and after the workout so I believe I'm getting better results by working harder, but I'm not really sure what I'm accomplishing!

Burning your muscles out is a terrible indicator of success or potential strength gains. Actually, if you feel the burn, you're typically using glycolytic pathways that inhibit hypertrophy. If you're trying to gain size, that's a bad idea. If you're trying to gain functional size and strength, stick with reps between 1 and 6 with sufficient rest. Burning yourself out does nothing but hinder your recovery.

 

[Koing]

ok thanks guys. I really should've researched a little on what a "superset" is before posting. What I'm asking about is called a drop set, I believe.

Dropping to maybe 15% weight (pushups) after doing close to your max say 85% (bench). What does this accomplish?

Also, when I do shoulder workouts I usually drop weight in the first and second set. For example, from 35 lbs (10 rep) to 25 lbs (6-7ish) to 20 (6-7ish). I do it because I feel a better "burn" during and after the workout so I believe I'm getting better results by working harder, but I'm not really sure what I'm accomplishing!

Push ups do about 50-60% of your bw FYI...NOT 15%...

Koing

 

[happyguy155]

Thanks for the help again. What do you guys suggest is a good way to do a shoulder workout? For some reason, I'm NEVER sore the next after no matter what I try. I've triedadding both weight or reps. Without DOMS, am I still building my muscles?

 

[KoolDrew]

Soreness is a horrible indicator of progress and chasing DOMS is a great way to burn yourself out and not get anywhere. The main stimulus for muscle growth is progressive tension overload, with fatigue and muscle damage being secondary. Therefore your concentration should be on increasing weight on the bar in a moderate rep range over time. You don't need a ton of different movements either, 1-3 is plenty. The first movement should always be a compound movement such as military press, seated press, push press, or db press. Don't forget shoulders will get hit when training chest as well.

 

[MJinZ]

ok thanks guys. I really should've researched a little on what a "superset" is before posting. What I'm asking about is called a drop set, I believe.

Dropping to maybe 15% weight (pushups) after doing close to your max say 85% (bench). What does this accomplish?

Also, when I do shoulder workouts I usually drop weight in the first and second set. For example, from 35 lbs (10 rep) to 25 lbs (6-7ish) to 20 (6-7ish). I do it because I feel a better "burn" during and after the workout so I believe I'm getting better results by working harder, but I'm not really sure what I'm accomplishing!

It doesn't accomplish much IMO.

I do dropsets but I it would be about 75% maybe and going for max volume.

Bench example:

145 warm up
175 set 1 x5-8
200 set 2 x5
220 set 3 x5
245 set 4 x5
255 set 5 x5
200 set 6 x as many as possible

It depends on how I feel on my set 5 usually. I will try to push another 5 or 10 if I'm feeling like I can move up.

 

[MJinZ]

Burning your muscles out is a terrible indicator of success or potential strength gains. Actually, if you feel the burn, you're typically using glycolytic pathways that inhibit hypertrophy. If you're trying to gain size, that's a bad idea. If you're trying to gain functional size and strength, stick with reps between 1 and 6 with sufficient rest. Burning yourself out does nothing but hinder your recovery.

Tell that to anybody who's ever gotten big or strong.

"Oh I avoid the burn at all costs, yea that's how I lift"

 

[MJinZ]

ok thanks guys. I really should've researched a little on what a "superset" is before posting. What I'm asking about is called a drop set, I believe.

Dropping to maybe 15% weight (pushups) after doing close to your max say 85% (bench). What does this accomplish?

Also, when I do shoulder workouts I usually drop weight in the first and second set. For example, from 35 lbs (10 rep) to 25 lbs (6-7ish) to 20 (6-7ish). I do it because I feel a better "burn" during and after the workout so I believe I'm getting better results by working harder, but I'm not really sure what I'm accomplishing!

I find going up in weights to be better.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Tell that to anybody who's ever gotten big or strong.

"Oh I avoid the burn at all costs, yea that's how I lift"

Lmao, have you ever seen a legitimate powerlifter? I bet they haven't felt the burn in years because they train in reps that are functional. Bodybuilders train in the burn zone, which is not functional and builds a greater degree of useless hypertrophy. Go read some research and realize that all of those guys who lift FOR the burn would be bigger if they had been smarter about their training regimen.

 

[KoolDrew]

Without the help of steriods, the athlete that make the best strength gains in a moderate rep range with sufficient food will grow the best. While I think there is a value to some "pump" training, it cannot be used exclusively in the absence of heavier loading with concentration on progressive overload.

 

[MJinZ]

Lmao, have you ever seen a legitimate powerlifter? I bet they haven't felt the burn in years because they train in reps that are functional. Bodybuilders train in the burn zone, which is not functional and builds a greater degree of useless hypertrophy. Go read some research and realize that all of those guys who lift FOR the burn would be bigger if they had been smarter about their training regimen.

There's no such thing as a strong guy/powerlifter who isn't also big. All the big guys are also strong enough.

What you're telling a newbie to do "to avoid the burn" or whatever is the WORST POSSIBLE ADVICE.

You NEED to lift hard, and whatever that the "burn or not burn" entails for you, it really makes jack difference to most people who are not an Arnold looking to get even bigger or stronger.

I'm not saying to lift alot of reps, but to "avoid" the burn is not universally something anyone should do.

 

[MJinZ]

Without the help of steriods, the athlete that make the best strength gains in a moderate rep range with sufficient food will grow the best. While I think there is a value to some "pump" training, it cannot be used exclusively in the absence of heavier loading with concentration on progressive overload.

Heavier loading with proper form is all that really matters for both strength and size. No one gets huge doing 10lbs x 1000 reps. :whiste:

 

[KoolDrew]

Lmao, have you ever seen a legitimate powerlifter? I bet they haven't felt the burn in years because they train in reps that are functional. Bodybuilders train in the burn zone, which is not functional and builds a greater degree of useless hypertrophy. Go read some research and realize that all of those guys who lift FOR the burn would be bigger if they had been smarter about their training regimen.

Have you ever seen a powerlifters routine? While their max effort lift is always done in singles, doubles, and triples, the accessory work afterwards is higher rep work. Just take a look at a sample westside barbell template. ON ME bench day, they work up to a max single and follow it up with high volume tricep work, back work etc. Go tell some of the strongest guys in the world what they do isn't "functional."

 

[brikis98]

There's no such thing as a strong guy/powerlifter who isn't also big. All the big guys are also strong enough.

What you're telling a newbie to do "to avoid the burn" or whatever is the WORST POSSIBLE ADVICE.

You NEED to lift hard, and whatever that the "burn or not burn" entails for you, it really makes jack difference to most people who are not an Arnold looking to get even bigger or stronger.

I'm not saying to lift alot of reps, but to "avoid" the burn is not universally something anyone should do.

MJinZ, you seriously need to stop giving advice on this forum. You are utterly clueless about training & nutrition and do little besides spread misinformation.

To help you remove the foot from your mouth, go and spend some time reading about the difference between myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, the rep ranges that produce them, and how the duration of exercise affects the energy pathways involved. These all tie into why soreness and the burn/pump are not indicators of the effectiveness of a workout.

 

[MJinZ]

MJinZ, you seriously need to stop giving advice on this forum. You are utterly clueless about training & nutrition and do little besides spread misinformation.

To help you remove the foot from your mouth, go and spend some time reading about the difference between myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, the rep ranges that produce them, and how the duration of exercise affects the energy pathways involved. These all tie into why soreness and the burn/pump are not indicators of the effectiveness of a workout.

I think you need to learn to READ. No one said to get sore or get a burn or pump. Socially Challenged'd recommendation is easily taken to avoid lifting hard. No one gets strong without lifting hard, period.

I love the technical guys like you and Socially who can't really actually put the weights.

Lift hard and eat hard. No one here NEEDS to give a crap about glycolitic pathways until they're about 200lbs of lean weight. Hell, I've got a BS in Chem and Biochem and I'm not even concerned. I'll be sure to call on you for advice when I'm benching 400lbs though.

The most I read here is how some like to make working out to be akin to a Quantum Physics major. That, it ain't.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I think you need to learn to READ. No one said to get sore or get a burn or pump. Socially Challenged'd recommendation is easily taken to avoid lifting hard. No one gets strong without lifting hard, period.

I love the technical guys like you and Socially who can't really actually put the weights.

Lift hard and eat hard. No one here NEEDS to give a crap about glycolitic pathways until they're about 200lbs of lean weight. Hell, I've got a BS in Chem and Biochem and I'm not even concerned. I'll be sure to call on you for advice when I'm benching 400lbs though.

The most I read here is how some like to make working out to be akin to a Quantum Physics major. That, it ain't.

What? Where did I say not to lift hard? I said don't lift to get the burn. I said lift in the heavy range for major compound movements (reps between 1 and 6 typically to positive failure). That means you have to be lifting EXCEPTIONALLY hard. With your B.S. in biochem, you should go research the effects of AMPK concentrations on the mTOR pathways. Yeah, the ones that induce hypertrophy.

Working out requires more education than people like to assume. The human body is one of the most complicated, convoluted tools on earth. If you do anything at the beginning, you'll have gains, but to produce consistent gains for prolonged periods of time, you must abide by the rules of human physiology. If you don't know what you're doing, you're going to stall. My advice is given to prevent that initially and for as long as possible.

And you want to bring up lifts into this? If I can't talk about lifts with a 2.5x body weight deadlift, then you sure as hell can't talk about cutting at 20%+ body fat.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Have you ever seen a powerlifters routine? While their max effort lift is always done in singles, doubles, and triples, the accessory work afterwards is higher rep work. Just take a look at a sample westside barbell template. ON ME bench day, they work up to a max single and follow it up with high volume tricep work, back work etc. Go tell some of the strongest guys in the world what they do isn't "functional."

Firstly, they have to vary volume a great deal more than others. On average, they do work to facilitate neural gains because they're nearly maxed out hypertrophy. That changes things. I'm speaking about hypertrophy specifically.

Secondly you essentially just proved my point for me. They do their main compounds under very, very high load. The accessory movements are there to build stabilizers, weak points in a movement, tendon strength, etc. They're often done to build up oxidative capacity to a certain degree to allow for proper stabilization; but they're not done to maximize hypertrophy. They're done to maximize coordination and tensile strength - a very separate topic from hypertrophy. If you want to talk about developing tendon strength, then we can talk about high volume isolation workouts being functional, but in the realm of hypertrophy, it is ineffective.

 

[brikis98]

Socially Challenged'd recommendation is easily taken to avoid lifting hard. No one gets strong without lifting hard, period.

I believe the problem with reading comprehension is completely on your end. Let's take a look at SC's post once more:

"Burning your muscles out is a terrible indicator of success or potential strength gains. Actually, if you feel the burn, you're typically using glycolytic pathways that inhibit hypertrophy. If you're trying to gain size, that's a bad idea. If you're trying to gain functional size and strength, stick with reps between 1 and 6 with sufficient rest. Burning yourself out does nothing but hinder your recovery."

Where in that does he say not to lift hard? All he says is that if you are always doing enough reps to "feel the burn" - which usually takes > 8 reps - then you are training in a suboptimal way for gaining strength, myofibrillar hypertrophy and recovery. Instead, he recommends sticking with 1-6 reps. If you've ever done a limit set of 5 with squats or deadlifts, you'd know how goddamn hard that can be. But wait: aren't you're the guy that avoids both those exercises because you can't take the time to learn the technique?

I love the technical guys like you and Socially who can't really actually put the weights.

First of all, you don't have to be a great athlete to know how to train. In fact, the best coaches were typically mediocre athletes and found out they could teach better than they could do. In other words, whether or not I or SC can "actually put the weights" is irrelevant to whether or not we're right about training methodologies. Secondly, all my numbers are in the first post of my workout journal. Where are yours tough guy? Third, I've never claimed to be a great athlete - far from it, in fact - but training is a passion and hobby of mine and I've been doing it (and learning about it) consistently for a number of years. As a result, I've made decent progress in a number of areas: 405lb squat, 475lb deadlift, 205lb overhead press, 203lb snatch, 288lb clean, etc, all at a 185-195lb bodyweight and while doing GPP training, which means strength isn't my only focus.

Lift hard and eat hard. No one here NEEDS to give a crap about glycolitic pathways until they're about 200lbs of lean weight. Hell, I've got a BS in Chem and Biochem and I'm not even concerned. I'll be sure to call on you for advice when I'm benching 400lbs though.

I don't know about you, but I have a very finite amount of time to train in my life. Therefore, I strive to make my routine as efficient as possible. To do that, believe it or not, it actually IS useful to know something about exercise physiology and things like energy pathways. That way, I'll realize that if I'm trying to get big & strong, using sets of 1-6 reps is usually a much more efficient choice than 12-20.

But no, you go ahead and ignore all this "evidence" and "science" stuff. Judging by your pictures and posts in this forum, you clearly know better how to get results.

 

[MJinZ]

What? Where did I say not to lift hard? I said don't lift to get the burn. I said lift in the heavy range for major compound movements (reps between 1 and 6 typically to positive failure). That means you have to be lifting EXCEPTIONALLY hard. With your B.S. in biochem, you should go research the effects of AMPK concentrations on the mTOR pathways. Yeah, the ones that induce hypertrophy.

Working out requires more education than people like to assume. The human body is one of the most complicated, convoluted tools on earth. If you do anything at the beginning, you'll have gains, but to produce consistent gains for prolonged periods of time, you must abide by the rules of human physiology. If you don't know what you're doing, you're going to stall. My advice is given to prevent that initially and for as long as possible.

And you want to bring up lifts into this? If I can't talk about lifts with a 2.5x body weight deadlift, then you sure as hell can't talk about cutting at 20%+ body fat.

Well my bad if I interpreted your recommendation the wrong way, I just don't want others to lift wussy weights in fear of "the burn".

I dunno what my BF% is but I'm sure it won't ever get much below 20%, even if you look at my new pics here. My goal is to cut any appearance of fat around my neck and face while keeping my lifts as strong as possible. I also want to maintain a 200lb body weight. http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2110207&highlight=

 

[coreyb]

supersets are broscience

 

[Koing]

Most people will never feel the burn anyway...

I superset to save time...

I like to feel 'the pump' at times. Mixes up training but the majority of my training isn't about that. It's a good break from normal training but I rarely do stuff like this.

People also stick on the same routine forever...people should hit a rep range unless they have a very specific requirement.

Koing