Whats the need for Intergrated Graphics again?

[blastingcap]

Even 4 series old IGP supports a 30 at 2560*1600.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=33394136&postcount=23

Btw, just because a chipset allows for something doesn't mean the mobo necessarily supports it. But in any case, I retract my "most" comment and reduce it to "some."

 

[iCyborg]

Most normal people do not upgrade their PCs as fast and as furiously as gamers. I know people who are still using Pentium II's even though they could afford way better. People who haven't upgraded their PCs in many years number in the millions. If even some of them occasionally upgrade their systems with discrete graphics cards (maybe to play back movies or whatever, not just for their new 2560xYYYY monitor), there will continue to be a market for discrete gfx cards for quite a while.

By the way, dual link DVI-D is only needed for resolutions past 1920x1200, I have no idea why you and the other guy keep harping on 1920x1200 as if it required dual link.

The number of people that have P2 or P4 or maybe 1st gen C2D *and* are in the market for a modern GFX is small and going down, nVidia/AMD sure can't rely on this being a revenue stream going forward.

If you read more carefully, nowhere did I imply that 1920x1200 requires DL. You said that some mobos don't have DL output and that some IGPs will not be able to power that resolution. For the 2nd part I gave an example that even lower end MBs from 2003 (P4 based Celeron in a Dell PC...) had power to run 1920x1200, and 4250 can run 2560x1600, so anything in the last 5 years will have no problems running 2D assuming it can deliver it to the monitor (i.e. has DL-DVI).

 

[blastingcap]

The number of people that have P2 or P4 or maybe 1st gen C2D *and* are in the market for a modern GFX is small and going down, nVidia/AMD sure can't rely on this being a revenue stream going forward.

If you read more carefully, nowhere did I imply that 1920x1200 requires DL. You said that some mobos don't have DL output and that some IGPs will not be able to power that resolution. For the 2nd part I gave an example that even lower end MBs from 2003 (P4 based Celeron in a Dell PC...) had power to run 1920x1200, and 4250 can run 2560x1600, so anything in the last 5 years will have no problems running 2D assuming it can deliver it to the monitor (i.e. has DL-DVI).

I did note that some people buy discrete cards for reasons other than resolution, too, such as converting an old PC into a HTPC. It's good to have even a low end 5450 or something to offload video decoding duties to, rather than have the CPU do it. Many CPUs can do it if they are fast enough, but many CPUs are not. Case in my point: my gf's old PC we are thinking about converting into a HTPC, but her E4300 (C2D 1.8Ghz) is not really up for the task of decoding 1080p so we're thinking about getting a 6450.

As for 19x12 you and the other guy both talked about DL and then gave 19x12 as an example, which confuses the issue. >19x12 requires DL. I don't think that is in dispute, either.

But really, I don't know why we are even discussing this. The market for low-end discrete GPUs is going to fall as APUs and embedded GPUs take over, over time. I don't know a single person who would deny this. The trend is clear.

 

[Cerb]

Actually, that raises an interesting question.

What about the people who need AND want minimal graphics power (no gaming). Will they be able to buy a powerful CPU with a low end integrated GPU, or will they be forced to buy one with a powerful graphics unit?

It's really not an interesting question at all, though. You want the best that you can afford, within your power envelope. If you don't use it much, it will slow down or turn off. Tada. Problem solved. There are some good things about all this density new chips are stuck with. Thermal density is too high to turn everything on, so they're made to be able to turn most of it off.

IGPs are more than plenty for everthing but gaming. Remove gaming for whatever reason, and the need for discrete GFX cards are gone.

No. Intel's OpenGL support, FI, sucks. Not all resolutions may be available. Not all outputs needed may be available. <=$50 video cards still have a market for these kinds of reasons. As those issues are being removed (AMD IGP on the non-discrete OpenGL front), the IGPs are getting better and better for gaming, too. The performance and feature baseline keeps improving. If they'd start adding some more RAM channels to the CPUs, as well, they could completely do away with any future discrete GPUs like we have today for low-end (single RAM channel, barely-better-than IGP performance). Unlike some here, I look forward to the day when discrete video cards become relics of the past ^_^.

I have a hp pavilion dm4 with a i5 and hd3000 and it outgamed one of my first gaming pcs back in 2007 with a e6750 and a 6200le by like 5x....

I would hope so. A 6200LE was only superior to the likes of a FX 5200, which itself was only superior to IGP of the time thanks to Intel's and ATI's craptastic video drivers of the era. A gaming PC with an E6750 would have properly been given at least a 8600GT or 9600GT, depending on time of build.

 

[taltamir]

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=33394136&postcount=23

Btw, just because a chipset allows for something doesn't mean the mobo necessarily supports it. But in any case, I retract my "most" comment and reduce it to "some."

How would they NOT support it? They simply connect the pins from the chipset to the external socket. There is no way for them to skimp on it and reduce support.

Some things this can be an issue, like ram quantity. But this is not one of them

 

[Dark Shroud]

What I really want though is what I have in my MacBook pro. I can turn the discrete gpu on/off at will and only use the hd3000 when I'm not gaming. I would love to see this Ina desktop setup.

Intel has Virtu.
AMD has Power Express 4.
Nvidia has Synergy.

 

[ksec]

Thx, Lots of Great thoughts and input.

I forgot to mention iGPU i was specifically thinking of Intel's. I dont have problem with AMD's side of things because it is actually a CPU + GPU.

But for Intel which is always slow in software and drivers support, and so so performance.

Hopefully Haswell will brings it up to standard as Anand has stated it should be 3x faster then Ivy. Hopefully this is not another number throw up comparing using the slowest of Ivy to fastest of Haswell.

 

[paul878]

Simple, Cheap and more Reliable Computer.

 

[blastingcap]

Thx, Lots of Great thoughts and input.

I forgot to mention iGPU i was specifically thinking of Intel's. I dont have problem with AMD's side of things because it is actually a CPU + GPU.

But for Intel which is always slow in software and drivers support, and so so performance.

Hopefully Haswell will brings it up to standard as Anand has stated it should be 3x faster then Ivy. Hopefully this is not another number throw up comparing using the slowest of Ivy to fastest of Haswell.

Each Haswell EU will be slightly more effective than Ivy, plus with 22nm process maturity you can expect higher clocks, and lastly, Haswell's top part = 40 EU. Compare that to Ivy's top part at 16. So triple the speed is theoretically possible... even if it's just 2.5x the speed, that's already like a 8800GT and suitable for gaming at low-to-medium settings for most games.

 

[Yuriman]

Integrated GPUs will become much more useful when we see more programs outside of games start to use GPUs to do stuff.

I'm waiting for fully GPU accelerated UI's in desktops, and expect Windows 8 to bring us closer to this. We've had it in phones for a long time.

Chrome for instance supports GPU rendering and (due in part to webkit being terrible for this) is much, much faster when rendered on the GPU when you enable smooth scrolling.

 

[Dark Shroud]

I'm waiting for fully GPU accelerated UI's in desktops, and expect Windows 8 to bring us closer to this. We've had it in phones for a long time.

Windows Aero uses the GPU and will probably be what powers Metro. So yeah that's one interesting aspect.

Chrome for instance supports GPU rendering and (due in part to webkit being terrible for this) is much, much faster when rendered on the GPU when you enable smooth scrolling.

IE9 was the first browser to do GPU rendering and MS used open APIs. So Firefox is using the same APIs for GPU rendering. I believe it uses Direct2Draw in windows.

 

[truth_benchmark]

Here are some of my gameplay vids using an AMD A8-3870K without a discrete GPU

Mass Effect 3 (DX9)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x24CzW0mzt8

Lost Planet 2 (DX11)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTofPjiZqV0

Resident Evil 5 (DX10)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ncc1pB2yWc

All of the games are run at 1280 x 720.

Complete details of the graphic settings used are shown in the start of each video

 

[Upgrade_Itch]

Netbooks will be flooding the market soon and Intel is highly involved, hence the improved IGP architecture imbedded in the IB cpu.

 

[guskline]

Where I work the company maintains @ 400 computers and replaces @100/ yr on a lease system. Integrated gpu is a must. Electricity, simplicity etc are a must. We gamers, my self included are the crazies who usually want the latest and greatest. If you are an IT manager who's job it is to keep the computers functioning for word processing, internet access etc. Ivy Bridge is a Godsend. AMD is also very good but the problem is the IT guy/gal who wants to order 100 AMDs over 100 Intels better have a boss with some computer knowledge. It just doesn't happen that way. Most bosses want Intel.

Heck, as much as I love playing, building and fooling with computers, my recent (last 6 mos.) experience shows what I mean. My wife has her own business which primarily is word processing based, internet access etc ( only gaming is solitaire). I always built her computers. Tax time came and her accountant said she needed deductions so she said she wanted a new computer. We went to Staples and she bought a new HP rig with an I3-2130 etc. She's happly as a clam and so am I. It works great with integrated video and I don't get as many "computer" calls.

Also as Upgrade Itch points out, with netbooks etc, the need for integrated video increases. BTW, my wife has an I Pad2 and loves it.

 

[Lonbjerg]

Here are some of my gameplay vids using an AMD A8-3870K without a discrete GPU

Mass Effect 3 (DX9)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x24CzW0mzt8

Lost Planet 2 (DX11)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTofPjiZqV0

Resident Evil 5 (DX10)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ncc1pB2yWc

All of the games are run at 1280 x 720.

Complete details of the graphic settings used are shown in the start of each video

Thanks for showing me why IGP's are not for me...give me a GPU thx.

 

[truth_benchmark]

Thanks for showing me why IGP's are not for me...give me a GPU thx.

The video might look not very smooth. I don't know if it's a problem with Bandicam

The actual gameplay (without video recording) is very smooth. I finished Mass Effect 3 campaign using an A8-3870K only. I even play its multiplayer @ 720p with all details enabled except for motion blur. AF set to 4x

I have done frame time benchmarking ( http://techreport.com/articles.x/21516 ) on my A8-3870K and there were no problems.

Llano is AMD's first gaming-capable APU. Current APU's can't still replace entry-level gaming PC's. If AMD's APU continues to improve, I think Kaveri APU's (scheduled for 2013) might be a good alternative for gamers on a tight budget

Of course, if you are the type of gamer who wants to play @ 1080p or higher with maxed out details, then AMD's APU is not for you

 

[Lonbjerg]

The video might look not very smooth. I don't know if it's a problem with Bandicam

The actual gameplay (without video recording) is very smooth. I finished Mass Effect 3 campaign using an A8-3870K only. I even play its multiplayer @ 720p with all details enabled except for motion blur. AF set to 4x

I have done frame time benchmarking ( http://techreport.com/articles.x/21516 ) on my A8-3870K and there were no problems.

Llano is AMD's first gaming-capable APU. Current APU's can't still replace entry-level gaming PC's. If AMD's APU continues to improve, I think Kaveri APU's (scheduled for 2013) might be a good alternative for gamers on a tight budget

Of course, if you are the type of gamer who wants to play @ 1080p or higher with maxed out details, then AMD's APU is not for you

I game at 1600x1200 (times 2..have 2 CRT's)...no way I could game at low res(720P)...with 4 x AF...and it shows in your video.

And you suffer form the same fallacy of "static goalposts".

Games don't (besides console-games) don't stagnate...they do more and more calcualtions...requiring more and more performance.

When APU reach GTX680 performance...GPU's are simmilar more powerfull...and games requires simmilar more performance inorder to run maxed out.

IGP's have been touted for over an decade...and they are fine...if you are NOT a gamer.

 

[truth_benchmark]

I game at 1600x1200 (times 2..have 2 CRT's)...no way I could game at low res(720P)...with 4 x AF...and it shows in your video.

And you suffer form the same fallacy of "static goalposts".

Games don't (besides console-games) don't stagnate...they do more and more calcualtions...requiring more and more performance.

When APU reach GTX680 performance...GPU's are simmilar more powerfull...and games requires simmilar more performance inorder to run maxed out.

IGP's have been touted for over an decade...and they are fine...if you are NOT a gamer.

You were not very clear on what you want to say in your first comment about my gameplay vids

So I said the that the actual gameplay without video recording is very smooth and there are no problems in frame time benchmarking

It is wrong to say or insinuate that IGP's won't have a place in PC gaming just because previous generations of IGP's are crap for gaming

With Llano, AMD is starting to change the image of IGP's. According to AMD, Trinity APU's (scheduled for 2012) will have 30% more IGP performance compared to Llano. Let's wait and see how things turn out for AMD's new APU's for 2012 and beyond

 

[Jaydip]

You were not very clear on what you want to say in your first comment about my gameplay vids

So I said the that the actual gameplay without video recording is very smooth and there are no problems in frame time benchmarking

It is wrong to say or insinuate that IGP's won't have a place in PC gaming just because previous generations of IGP's are crap for gaming

With Llano, AMD is starting to change the image of IGP's. According to AMD, Trinity APU's (scheduled for 2012) will have 30% more IGP performance compared to Llano. Let's wait and see how things turn out for AMD's new APU's for 2012 and beyond

Is 30% more performance enough to compete with discrete gpus?They have their uses but please don't compare them with discrete cards yet.

 

[truth_benchmark]

The HD 6550D @ 600 MHz (stock), when using DDR3 1866, has a comparable performance to GT 440

That's a good start

A10-5800K (top-end Trinity APU) is rumored to have a HD 7660D IGP. According to various reports on the web, the IGP is based from Northern Islands (VLIW4). HD 7660D will have 384 stream processors @ 800 MHz. Llano IGP has 400 stream processors @ 600 MHz and it is based from Evergreen.

For Kaveri APU's which are scheduled for 2013, the IGP will use Southern Islands (GCN architecture)

 

[Jaydip]

The HD 6550D @ 600 MHz (stock), when using DDR3 1866, has a comparable performance to GT 440

That's a good start

A10-5800K (top-end Trinity APU) is rumored to have a HD 7660D IGP. According to various reports on the web, the IGP is based from Northern Islands (VLIW4). HD 7660D will have 384 stream processors @ 800 MHz. Llano IGP has 400 stream processors @ 600 MHz and it is based from Evergreen.

For Kaveri APU's which are scheduled for 2013, the IGP will use Southern Islands (GCN architecture)

By 2013 discrete gpus will have moved further.As i said they have their uses but in foreseeable future they can't compete with discrete gpus.

 

[pcm81]

The problem with powerfull IGP is not only the cost of cpu die space, but also the additional heat generation on CPU. Having said that, eventually there will be an IGP that can run crysis not not any time soon. IGPs will probably always be simmilar to game consoles.

IGP MOHAA or Counter Stike any one?

 

[blastingcap]

The problem with powerfull IGP is not only the cost of cpu die space, but also the additional heat generation on CPU. Having said that, eventually there will be an IGP that can run crysis not not any time soon. IGPs will probably always be simmilar to game consoles.

IGP MOHAA or Counter Stike any one?

Counterstrike 1.6 is still amazingly popular considering its age, and I bet it runs well on the latest and greatest APU.

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

 

[truth_benchmark]

By 2013 discrete gpus will have moved further. As i said they have their uses but in foreseeable future they can't compete with discrete gpus.

The problem with powerfull IGP is not only the cost of cpu die space, but also the additional heat generation on CPU. Having said that, eventually there will be an IGP that can run crysis not not any time soon. IGPs will probably always be simmilar to game consoles.

These statements assume the APU's advancement will be slow or poor

Assuming AMD can greatly improve their APU's every new generation, I don't think they would make it too powerful that it would compete with their own mid-range GPU line-up (HD x8xx series). But I think it is possible that they will make it fast enough that they might not need to make entry-level discrete GPU's (HD x6xx / x7xx series) anymore

As for Crysis, it's playable @ 720p using medium settings with no AA. I have tested Dead Space 2, Mass Effect 3 and Mafia II, the PC version looks better than the console version even if both are running at 720p. I don't know about the Xbox 360 successor but the PS4 is rumored to have GPU based on an HD 6670.

Anyway, we're all just making assumptions here. We'll see how the newer APU's perform

 

[Don Karnage]

Counterstrike 1.6 is still amazingly popular considering its age, and I bet it runs well on the latest and greatest APU.

http://store.steampowered.com/stats/

Ill do some source testing tomorrow while im putting the 7850 on water