What's the lesson from this story?

[ivwshane]

Some of you may have heard about this but this is the first update I've heard.

A quick recap of the original story is this: Business owner cuts his own pay and makes the minimum wage of all his employees. $70k.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/08/0...nst-the-raise-that-roared.html?_r=0&referrer=

From an economics perspective there isn't much to be learned yet so my question is more to do with human nature rather than political or economic policy.

My personal take away is that people are stupidly selfish, that is, there selfishness causes them to do stupid shit.

The complaints about the minimum pay are;

1) Some people feel those that don't work as hard shouldn't be paid as well.
2) People feel pressured to work harder.
3) Clients are worried about price increases despite being told there wouldn't be any.
4) Other business owners are concerned about how it's going to impact their business (as in employer/employee relationship).
5) They don't deserve it.
6) It's inspired other business owners to do something similar.

I'll let others respond before I give my feelings on the six points.

 

[Zorkorist]

You believe people are bad by nature.

I believe they are good, by nature.

-John

 

[ivwshane]

You believe people are bad by nature.

I believe they are good, by nature.

-John

No, I believe they are stupid by nature. It's takes work not to be stupid.

 

[Moonbeam]

My opinion is that people are good by nature but have been taught to hate themselves. This leads to competition which is hate and ego which is selfishness and greed. There is evil in the world because of this, and good because all of humanity yearns for their original state and many many find a measure of health.

 

[Zorkorist]

No, I believe they are stupid by nature. It's takes work not to be stupid.

Same... you think people are stupid/bad by nature.

They're not.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

My opinion is that people are good by nature but have been taught to hate themselves. This leads to competition which is hate and ego which is selfishness and greed. There is evil in the world because of this, and good because all of humanity yearns for their original state and many many find a measure of health.

People are obviously good by nature. This is proven because we haven't all killed ourselves.

Government, a collection of people, is pretty evil, as I observe.

-John

 

[ivwshane]

Same... you think people are stupid/bad by nature.

They're not.

-John

You prove my point daily

 

[Jaskalas]

What's the lesson from this story?

That the business owner has zero competition - if he did the price premium would put him out of business and all those employees out of work.

Individual choice is separate from government mandate, as someone will always cut costs without a floor set by mandate.
This is not equivalent to setting a minimum wage.

 

[ivwshane]

That the business owner has zero competition - if he did the price premium would put him out of business and all those employees out of work.

Individual choice is separate from government mandate, as someone will always cut costs without a floor set by mandate.
This is not equivalent to setting a minimum wage.

I certainly wasn't saying anything to the contrary. I thought I was pretty specific about what the topic was about, people's reaction to something that benefits them that doesn't hurt anyone else.

Really I think this story says more about the American worker and the ingrained belief that they aren't worth much or that they should be happy that they have a job. Self hate as moonbeam suggests? Or is it something else?


Off topic; just to address your point about his business having no competitors, I'd say the credit card processing industry has quite a few competitors both large and small. But that's besides the point.

 

[Moonbeam]

I certainly wasn't saying anything to the contrary. I thought I was pretty specific about what the topic was about, people's reaction to something that benefits them that doesn't hurt anyone else.

Really I think this story says more about the American worker and the ingrained belief that they aren't worth much or that they should be happy that they have a job. Self hate as moonbeam suggests? Or is it something else?


Off topic; just to address your point about his business having no competitors, I'd say the credit card processing industry has quite a few competitors both large and small. But that's besides the point.

It's systemic due to competition. All the money is going to the top which leaves billions with practically nothing so that there are billions who will work for just a little to survive. Put billions with nothing into a free labor market, truly free, on one side, and CEOs whose wages are set by a board of directors, other CEOs, and see what you get. Then make corporations people and money speech and the hopelessness of hope will be Bernie Sanders. Enjoy

 

[Jaskalas]

I certainly wasn't saying anything to the contrary. I thought I was pretty specific about what the topic was about, people's reaction to something that benefits them that doesn't hurt anyone else.

Really I think this story says more about the American worker and the ingrained belief that they aren't worth much or that they should be happy that they have a job. Self hate as moonbeam suggests? Or is it something else?

This really isn't about the American worker... as Moonbeam just said. It's about the competition between corporations to be the lowest common denominator.

Are people happy with more? Of course they are! Everyone is.
But its not the worker's choice, is it? Republicans like to pretend people can "work harder" but you know that's not entirely true - that the choice is not entirely theirs. The workers are victims of the environment and labor markets they find themselves in - with little to no knowledge of how to improve their situation.

A benevolent employer will make the employees happy... but it's not economically feasible in the long run - without minimum wage to back it up.

 

[Genx87]

Some of you may have heard about this but this is the first update I've heard.

A quick recap of the original story is this: Business owner cuts his own pay and makes the minimum wage of all his employees. $70k.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/08/0...nst-the-raise-that-roared.html?_r=0&referrer=

From an economics perspective there isn't much to be learned yet so my question is more to do with human nature rather than political or economic policy.

My personal take away is that people are stupidly selfish, that is, there selfishness causes them to do stupid shit.

The complaints about the minimum pay are;

1) Some people feel those that don't work as hard shouldn't be paid as well.
2) People feel pressured to work harder.
3) Clients are worried about price increases despite being told there wouldn't be any.
4) Other business owners are concerned about how it's going to impact their business (as in employer/employee relationship).
5) They don't deserve it.
6) It's inspired other business owners to do something similar.

I'll let others respond before I give my feelings on the six points.

Reading this article what I take away from it is no entity can beat the market. This guy dictated a wage that the market says is not worth it. The result was a plummet in profitability. Which now threatens the business. It also pissed off workers that have put their time in but are paid as much as somebody who just started. Or people who are talented that are now being paid as much as people who arent talented.

If I was in my current position and the owner dictated the guys in the back were to make as much as me. It would also piss me off. Why? Because the owner is telling me my talents are worth as much as the guy who barely graduated out of highschool and performs a menial job that requires little skill. It is human nature to feel validated. Being paid for your talents is being validated.

 

[Jhhnn]

This really isn't about the American worker... as Moonbeam just said. It's about the competition between corporations to be the lowest common denominator.

Are people happy with more? Of course they are! Everyone is.
But its not the worker's choice, is it? Republicans like to pretend people can "work harder" but you know that's not entirely true - that the choice is not entirely theirs. The workers are victims of the environment and labor markets they find themselves in - with little to no knowledge of how to improve their situation.

A benevolent employer will make the employees happy... but it's not economically feasible in the long run - without minimum wage to back it up.

It takes more than minimum wage. It takes people banding together to create institutions more powerful than the individual or corporate interests- you know, an active democracy with all the trimmings like labor unions, government jobs, other worker protections as well.

Fat chance of that given the religious fervor of Job Creator worship.

 

[Jhhnn]

Reading this article what I take away from it is no entity can beat the market. This guy dictated a wage that the market says is not worth it. The result was a plummet in profitability. Which now threatens the business. It also pissed off workers that have put their time in but are paid as much as somebody who just started. Or people who are talented that are now being paid as much as people who arent talented.

If I was in my current position and the owner dictated the guys in the back were to make as much as me. It would also piss me off. Why? Because the owner is telling me my talents are worth as much as the guy who barely graduated out of highschool and performs a menial job that requires little skill. It is human nature to feel validated. Being paid for your talents is being validated.

Or maybe you mistake credentials for talent in the usual self serving fashion.

 

[ivwshane]

This really isn't about the American worker... as Moonbeam just said. It's about the competition between corporations to be the lowest common denominator.

Are people happy with more? Of course they are! Everyone is.
But its not the worker's choice, is it? Republicans like to pretend people can "work harder" but you know that's not entirely true - that the choice is not entirely theirs. The workers are victims of the environment and labor markets they find themselves in - with little to no knowledge of how to improve their situation.

A benevolent employer will make the employees happy... but it's not economically feasible in the long run - without minimum wage to back it up.

I think you are making a claim where there is no data to back that up.

 

[ivwshane]

Reading this article what I take away from it is no entity can beat the market. This guy dictated a wage that the market says is not worth it. The result was a plummet in profitability. Which now threatens the business.
I saw no such thing in the article. He said he lost some business but gained even more and won back some of those clients that left and he's had to hire more people. Plummeting profitability not found.

It also pissed off workers that have put their time in but are paid as much as somebody who just started. Or people who are talented that are now being paid as much as people who arent talented.



If I was in my current position and the owner dictated the guys in the back were to make as much as me. It would also piss me off. Why? Because the owner is telling me my talents are worth as much as the guy who barely graduated out of highschool and performs a menial job that requires little skill. It is human nature to feel validated. Being paid for your talents is being validated.

This is what I'm talking about and it's a totally illogical thing to think. Money is an inanimate object and is incapable of validating anything. Your validation should come from the job you've done and how well it met your bosses expectations.

Again, I think this is an American mentality (one that is spreading across the globe).

 

[Genx87]

Or maybe you mistake credentials for talent in the usual self serving fashion.

You are free to label it however you want. Credentials or talent. It is something I can do that others can not. It is self serving to advance ones career and be compensated well in the process. Nothing wrong with it neither. Or are you telling us you work for free?

 

[Genx87]

This is what I'm talking about and it's a totally illogical thing to think. Money is an inanimate object and is incapable of validating anything. Your validation should come from the job you've done and how well it met your bosses expectations.

Again, I think this is an American mentality (one that is spreading across the globe).

It isnt illogical to feel validated via compensation. And that is not an American thing either.

 

[ivwshane]

It isnt illogical to feel validated via compensation. And that is not an American thing either.

Let's see how this plays out:

Scenario A) You do job X and you are paid Y, you feel validated.
Scenario B) You do job X and you are paid Y, your coworker does job X-1 (meaning less work) and is also paid Y, you don't feel validated.

You are still compensated, you still did your job but because someone is paid the same as you you no longer feel validated? Your validation appears to be predicated on the perceived value you place on other people. That's not only sad but ridiculous.
To show you how ridiculous that is let me give you another scenario.
Scenario A) You do job X and get paid Y but because your coworker does job X-1 you only feel validation if you are paid more. So if your coworker was paid $10 but you were paid $20 (this is a job where other people in your profession but at different companies get paid $70k), do you then still feel validated? Of course you don't because you know other professionals like yourself in other companies get paid more. So if everyone in your profession were to suddenly be paid $10 would you suddenly feel validated again? Of course not.

Your validation should come from yourself and what you perceive your value is in relation to the goal you are trying to reach, your judging of others is caused by self hate. Self hate is an illogical feeling. What your coworker is paid or what their job is shouldn't have any impact on your validation. The fact that it does is a symptom of what I perceive to be a trait of devaluing of American workers.

It's why we as a country take so few days of vacation off because we feel guilty and that we don't deserve it. We work long hours compared to other nations, we travel less as well and it's all because we compare ourselves to others in order to validate ourselves. It's a completely fucked up system we've created and bought into.

 

[Subyman]

It's systemic due to competition. All the money is going to the top which leaves billions with practically nothing so that there are billions who will work for just a little to survive. Put billions with nothing into a free labor market, truly free, on one side, and CEOs whose wages are set by a board of directors, other CEOs, and see what you get. Then make corporations people and money speech and the hopelessness of hope will be Bernie Sanders. Enjoy

Bernie for prez!

 

[Fanatical Meat]

The people complaining about it were typical Millennials (in my opinion). They wanted to gang up on an idea because it made them less special.
I'll be honest earlier in my career I used to hate people that did less work or got similar pay but worked less. Now that I have aged a bit I understand its not relevant to me and someone who is making more or similar money to me but working fewer hours is someone I should emulate, not envy.

 

[glenn1]

Let's see how this plays out:

Scenario A) You do job X and you are paid Y, you feel validated.
Scenario B) You do job X and you are paid Y, your coworker does job X-1 (meaning less work) and is also paid Y, you don't feel validated.

You are still compensated, you still did your job but because someone is paid the same as you you no longer feel validated? Your validation appears to be predicated on the perceived value you place on other people. That's not only sad but ridiculous.
To show you how ridiculous that is let me give you another scenario.
Scenario A) You do job X and get paid Y but because your coworker does job X-1 you only feel validation if you are paid more. So if your coworker was paid $10 but you were paid $20 (this is a job where other people in your profession but at different companies get paid $70k), do you then still feel validated? Of course you don't because you know other professionals like yourself in other companies get paid more. So if everyone in your profession were to suddenly be paid $10 would you suddenly feel validated again? Of course not.

Your validation should come from yourself and what you perceive your value is in relation to the goal you are trying to reach, your judging of others is caused by self hate. Self hate is an illogical feeling. What your coworker is paid or what their job is shouldn't have any impact on your validation. The fact that it does is a symptom of what I perceive to be a trait of devaluing of American workers.

It's why we as a country take so few days of vacation off because we feel guilty and that we don't deserve it. We work long hours compared to other nations, we travel less as well and it's all because we compare ourselves to others in order to validate ourselves. It's a completely fucked up system we've created and bought into.

You post this and yet will turn around and complain about "income inequality" in your next post and will advocate for aggressive government measures to address it. Including increased taxes on those who you say should feel self-validation from just a job well done.

 

[Genx87]

Let's see how this plays out:

Scenario A) You do job X and you are paid Y, you feel validated.
Scenario B) You do job X and you are paid Y, your coworker does job X-1 (meaning less work) and is also paid Y, you don't feel validated.

You are still compensated, you still did your job but because someone is paid the same as you you no longer feel validated? Your validation appears to be predicated on the perceived value you place on other people. That's not only sad but ridiculous.
To show you how ridiculous that is let me give you another scenario.
Scenario A) You do job X and get paid Y but because your coworker does job X-1 you only feel validation if you are paid more. So if your coworker was paid $10 but you were paid $20 (this is a job where other people in your profession but at different companies get paid $70k), do you then still feel validated? Of course you don't because you know other professionals like yourself in other companies get paid more. So if everyone in your profession were to suddenly be paid $10 would you suddenly feel validated again? Of course not.

Your validation should come from yourself and what you perceive your value is in relation to the goal you are trying to reach, your judging of others is caused by self hate. Self hate is an illogical feeling. What your coworker is paid or what their job is shouldn't have any impact on your validation. The fact that it does is a symptom of what I perceive to be a trait of devaluing of American workers.

It's why we as a country take so few days of vacation off because we feel guilty and that we don't deserve it. We work long hours compared to other nations, we travel less as well and it's all because we compare ourselves to others in order to validate ourselves. It's a completely fucked up system we've created and bought into.

And who are you to tell me how I should or shouldn't feel validated?

And what are you 8 years old to believe we should feel validated by meeting our bosses expectations? lol! I am sure management would love to get the working public to buy into that.

Anyways, if you feel this strongly why dont you offer to take a pay cut to match people below you with a lesser skillset. After all, what you get paid shouldnt have anything to do with how your feel validated within your position. Am I right?

 

[Genx87]

You post this and yet will turn around and complain about "income inequality" in your next post and will advocate for aggressive government measures to address it. Including increased taxes on those who you say should feel self-validation from just a job well done.

It is really a tortured argument. He believes we shouldnt care what others make. But then turns around and will scream income inequality. lol what?

Further, what he believes is a race to the top is actually a race to the bottom. Instead of people being paid for their talents. They now get paid the talentless rate. How many will venture into becoming talented if there is no payoff compared to the talentless? So while 70k sounds nice today. In 30 years we are all making 70k with little to no reason to increase our skill sets. That is a race to the bottom.

 

[TheSlamma]

1) Some people feel those that don't work as hard shouldn't be paid as well.
2) People feel pressured to work harder.
3) Clients are worried about price increases despite being told there wouldn't be any.
4) Other business owners are concerned about how it's going to impact their business (as in employer/employee relationship).
5) They don't deserve it.
6) It's inspired other business owners to do something similar.

1)When has pay ever been linked to harder work? (see farm hands) It's about responsibility and accountability. Mail room guy puts the wrong letter in the wrong mailbox it still finds its intended receiver. IT guy doesn't do a backup and the company loses millions in lost time guess which one isn't making $70K anymore.

2) Some people feel this way no matter what their pay, some people try to find every way out of work they possibly can.

3) If the prices do go up they can find another company, hopefully they are more driven by a better product than just cost.

4) Welcome to capitalist competition, what about companies that don't offshore to slave labor compared to companies that build quality products with US labor. Everyone gets to pick and choose what is fair and what isn't.

5) Deserves got nothin' to do with it

6) IMHO it'll just be a trend that comes and goes. I don't think it's sustainable for every company to do anyway.