Sorry to be COMPLETELY off topic, but what voltage does the northwood run at? Anyone underclock/undervolt? I'm thinking fanless...think it's possible? 
I beleive VCore for the Northwood is 1.5 Volts. Fanless probably not a good idea, as the chip will start to throttle.
zippy
my northwood runs at 1.475 volts. the bios allows me to increase it, but i don't remember decreasing the voltage being an option.
but that's on my msi board.
my northwood runs at 1.475 volts. the bios allows me to increase it, but i don't remember decreasing the voltage being an option.
but that's on my msi board.
zippy,
Fanless might be possible with the new Alpha PAL8942 heatsink that begins shipping to distributors tomorrow....however, it is certain that you will be able to use a silent fan with this heatsink...and still overclock like mad. Even with a virtually silent 2000rpm 20dB fan, this massive heatsink still provides better cooling than the AVC Sunflower, which is regarded by many as the best performing P4 heatsink currently available (aside from the Swiftech MCX-478). For details on this new Alpha PAL8942 heatsink, click here.
Fanless might be possible with the new Alpha PAL8942 heatsink that begins shipping to distributors tomorrow....however, it is certain that you will be able to use a silent fan with this heatsink...and still overclock like mad. Even with a virtually silent 2000rpm 20dB fan, this massive heatsink still provides better cooling than the AVC Sunflower, which is regarded by many as the best performing P4 heatsink currently available (aside from the Swiftech MCX-478). For details on this new Alpha PAL8942 heatsink, click here.
I'll give you 3 reasons. Quiet, stable, cool.
Hmm, those apply to this Athlon XP box here too! Although it's not tremendously speedy (equivalent to P4 1.8A nonoverclocked at most), this 1600+ comp, cooled by an 8045+ L1A is quiet, reliable, and stable. Oh, and I measured the HSF heat dissipation to be .23C/W
Ok, on intel's side now: the 1.6A can be overclocked simply by raising the bus to 133. The 2133 clock is not a problem at all for this .13 micron chip, and the chip is not overly expensive (finally! ~$130). This is like the only good intel chip in a long time (Northwood 2.2 is still unaffordable to many).
Hmm, those apply to this Athlon XP box here too! Although it's not tremendously speedy (equivalent to P4 1.8A nonoverclocked at most), this 1600+ comp, cooled by an 8045+ L1A is quiet, reliable, and stable. Oh, and I measured the HSF heat dissipation to be .23C/W
Ok, on intel's side now: the 1.6A can be overclocked simply by raising the bus to 133. The 2133 clock is not a problem at all for this .13 micron chip, and the chip is not overly expensive (finally! ~$130). This is like the only good intel chip in a long time (Northwood 2.2 is still unaffordable to many).
I'm thinking fanless...think it's possible?
I'd never go fanless. Just as mentioned above, there are great heatsinks that are great, perhaps great enough not to really need a fan, but it's always best to go with one to keep cooler air blowing down onto the heatsink.
I have a Thermaltake Volcano 7 HSF and I replaced the 80mm Smart Fan that was on it (due to case temps it would run as high as 4400RPM on my 1GHz AMD Thunderbird AXIA @ 1.4GHz) with a simple 2900RPM 80mm Coolermaster case fan. My system is dead quiet and still cool. Temps only raised by 0.5ºC with the lower RPM fan. So that Volcano 7 heatsink is quite awesome.
I'd never go fanless. Just as mentioned above, there are great heatsinks that are great, perhaps great enough not to really need a fan, but it's always best to go with one to keep cooler air blowing down onto the heatsink.
I have a Thermaltake Volcano 7 HSF and I replaced the 80mm Smart Fan that was on it (due to case temps it would run as high as 4400RPM on my 1GHz AMD Thunderbird AXIA @ 1.4GHz) with a simple 2900RPM 80mm Coolermaster case fan. My system is dead quiet and still cool. Temps only raised by 0.5ºC with the lower RPM fan. So that Volcano 7 heatsink is quite awesome.
I dont think you can underclock northwood, in what way?
100MHz fsb is the lowest setting on every mobo I know.
1.6A@2.4GHz 1.6v, asus P4S333
100MHz fsb is the lowest setting on every mobo I know.
1.6A@2.4GHz 1.6v, asus P4S333
<<
Hmm, those apply to this Athlon XP box here too! Although it's not tremendously speedy (equivalent to P4 1.8A nonoverclocked at most), this 1600+ comp, cooled by an 8045+ L1A is quiet, reliable, and stable. Oh, and I measured the HSF heat dissipation to be .23C/W
>>
How did you calculate a .23C/W? Alpha's own measurements are higher, as are the overclockers.com artificial testbed results. Anandtech's artificial testbed was likewise a higher measurement....
Seriously, though, if you're measuring this with the socket-thermistor, it isn't an accurate way to derive C/W. Keep in mind that the overclockers.com testbed result was done with a higher than l1A CFM fan, and the anandtech results with an orix fan are ~.345.
Mike
<< I dont think you can underclock northwood, in what way?
100MHz fsb is the lowest setting on every mobo I know.
1.6A@2.4GHz 1.6v, asus P4S333 >>
Right, duh, I'm an idiot. I didn't even think of how I would underclock! Haha...carry on.
So that massive Alpha PAL8942 + a Papst 19dB fan would be sufficient? That would be really quiet!
100MHz fsb is the lowest setting on every mobo I know.
My Asus A7V133 can underclock to 90MHz FSB.
My Asus A7V133 can underclock to 90MHz FSB.
I dont have a Northwood (yet), but have played around with undervolting Tualatins. They will run stock speed 1.25 - 1.3 Vcore. I've heard the NW's are similar. Undervolted with a big HS and some case airflow may work.
<< Well since we are on the topic I have a few comments and questions. Okay two things, one is that I do not see a huge real-world performance difference between these procs. Also RDRAM will it not be unstable if you are running a 133MHz FSB? Also I heard that DDR memory bottlenecks the P4 when it goes over 2.4GHz, can you confirm this. Is the P4A as cool as a PIIITualtin, or are there any numbers for how hot these procs run, I am possible interested in making a computer for the TV and want a very cool running computer, possibly without a CPU fan, or with a CPU fan and no case fans. I heard that if there is a good heatsink, the PIII Tualtin can run w/o a fan. >>
RDRAM can be overclocked very far. My RDRAM is currently running at 1280MHz, or 160FSB. There are DDR bottlenecks, as there is a signal integrity issue at higher frequencies with DDR. The P4A is as cool as the tualatin, and has built in thermal protection.
benchmarks aside is the difference in applications really worth the expense? I rarely boot my computer, I use Corel, ACDSee, M$Office, Dreamweaver, a few browsers and Irfanview.
I had a Tbird 1.0, now an XP1700 (stock HSF). There is a marginal increase in 'snap' under 2K but nothing I would say was worth the cost of chip, mobo, and RAM. It is quiet and stable - but it was before too. I needed to upgrade the wife's system (3 mos ago), but otherwise, if I had to do it over, I wouldn't bother. Since I was changing out all the critical stuff I could easily have gone Intel - but the bang for the buck wasn't there.
My 2¢ is that hardware advances are not compelling enough to justify making a small step in the absence of a "killer app". WinXP ain't it. My rule used to be upgrade when speeds double and upgrade prices are about the same. Seems like it still holds.
I had a Tbird 1.0, now an XP1700 (stock HSF). There is a marginal increase in 'snap' under 2K but nothing I would say was worth the cost of chip, mobo, and RAM. It is quiet and stable - but it was before too. I needed to upgrade the wife's system (3 mos ago), but otherwise, if I had to do it over, I wouldn't bother. Since I was changing out all the critical stuff I could easily have gone Intel - but the bang for the buck wasn't there.
My 2¢ is that hardware advances are not compelling enough to justify making a small step in the absence of a "killer app". WinXP ain't it. My rule used to be upgrade when speeds double and upgrade prices are about the same. Seems like it still holds.
- Oct 31, 1999
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Well, I think that I've been convinced. I admit that I was basing my judgement largely on the Sandra scores which show the 1.3 GHz Thunderbird outperforming a P4 @ 2.0 GHz by about 15%. The question remains, though, why are they still using a 100 MHz FSB?
snatch
makes sense to me, they make 100 fsb knowing that it will probably do 133 or higher, they let us do all their work for them testing out the 133+ fsb then the release the 133. face it we only make a small percentage of total buyers, but a nice test sample for their goods.
works for me too. i get a 100 fsb that everyone know will run at 135 easily and guess what it does.
makes sense to me, they make 100 fsb knowing that it will probably do 133 or higher, they let us do all their work for them testing out the 133+ fsb then the release the 133. face it we only make a small percentage of total buyers, but a nice test sample for their goods.
works for me too. i get a 100 fsb that everyone know will run at 135 easily and guess what it does.
<< I admit that I was basing my judgement largely on the Sandra scores which show the 1.3 GHz Thunderbird outperforming a P4 @ 2.0 GHz by about 15% >>
What benchmark in Sandra are you talking about?
Dudes, who cares?!
Like anyway can really tell between and 2.4GHz P4 vs. an Athlon XP 1800+?
My next system will be the Gigabyte GA-8SRX w/ the 1.6A GHz P4.
All I know is, for the same price, if I can get a stable system, and a much quieter system, I would choose that any day of the week.
Like anyway can really tell between and 2.4GHz P4 vs. an Athlon XP 1800+?
My next system will be the Gigabyte GA-8SRX w/ the 1.6A GHz P4.
All I know is, for the same price, if I can get a stable system, and a much quieter system, I would choose that any day of the week.
This is what I really love about competition. The one upsmanship benefits us all, AMD and Intel fans. Personally, I am a computer fan and will put my money on the best. If Cyrix came out with a world beater tomorrow, thats what I would put my money on. Right now Intel has the upper hand, soon AMD will get it back and the cycle will go on...ain't it great!!!!
regardless if an overclocked northwood beats an athlonxp or not the fact remains that any cpu that can be clocked as much as these northwoods are will be popular for the fact that they can be overclocked!
Buy a 1.6Ghz cpu over clock it to 2.2Ghz (or more) that is a compelling reason to buy one regardless of how it preforms against an XP.
Buy a 1.6Ghz cpu over clock it to 2.2Ghz (or more) that is a compelling reason to buy one regardless of how it preforms against an XP.
<< Still, that won't make me go out and get it merely because I hate Intel. >>
Some of you people just like to see numbers. I just don't want to buy a product that I have to oc to get my money's worth out of it. Those chips do oc nicely though.
Some of you ppl need to start linking your reviews you are reading....I read many reviews before I switched to p4 northwood and the reviews showed a p4 2.0a northwood was running about 10percent over the top of a willamette p4 and thus closed the gap the athlon 2000+ had built on it...if anything an athlon xp 2000+ (which buy the way does not have the same type of ceiling when it comes to overclocking as it has started running into the limitations of the .18 micron chip) is equal to a p4 2.0a northwood...The northwood 2.2 won a majority of the test in all the reviews I read....
rememer that in those reviews thay usually concluded the athlon xp was a better chip based only on the fact the lead of the 2.2ghz wasn't so significant as to justify the cost of the 2.2ghz northwood...In there lies some of the argument for the 1.6a and 1.8a northwoods...
also remember that the 2.2ghz northwood was running stock 400fsb why many if not all are hitting 533fsb plus with the ocing on the 1.6 and 1.8a's....
BASIC MATH AND BASIC LOGICAL DEDUCTION!!!!
If a 2.2ghz northwood stock beats an athlon xp 2000+ stock in majority of appz then an 2.4ghz northwood with a 533fsb (like mine 1.8a@2.4ghz) will beat a 2000+ athlon stock...I am also coupling that with pc2700 333ddr support where I get memory bandwidth numbers above the i850 rambus platform. Probably more comparable to athlon 2200++...which isn't out and by no means is a certain when ocing an 2000+ athlon. I neither wanted the noise, excess heat, or cost of costly aftermarket hsf combo.
You ppl (and I hate to call ppl amd zealots cause I still like and wholeheartedly support amd) need to just face current facts...current facts...tomorrow is another day and god knows I hop amd stays right in the race to make these cpus so damn inexpensive.
I know ppl will say it is hard to see the real world difference, but when you run dvd to divx encoding even 1-2fps can make the difference in tens of minutes when you are doing a 2 hour movie multiple pass with fully encoded ac3 soundtrack and average bitrate of 1900-2000 on a 2 cd rip....
I have also noticed the faster bootup, quicker responsiveness....also notice better performance in my scanning and editing photos as well...I am sure the memory bandwidth has a lot to do with that....I am not a big gamer so I can't comment on that.
For me an upgrade to a 2000+ athlon would have at the time been 262 dollars shipped for an oem chip with another 20 bucks for a basic bare minimum hsf...then I ran into the issues of slower sis735 chipset nterms of memory bandwidth and ocing capabilities...So I was looking at getting iwill 333ddr board cause I would sooner eat bugs then go via...Add in 100 shipped and I was at 362 dollars...
Instead I got 1.8a northwood with retail fan for 214 shipped then got Asus p4s333 mob for 117 shipped...sold crucial ram for 142.50 bought pc2700 kingmax (5ns) for 186.00 for a plus 43.50 and my total for the system upgrade was 374.50...
What I got was a 2.4ghz 533fsb system running memory bandwidths 500mb/s better then athlon kt266a system...I would have needed like I said an athlon 2200+ to equal that...I got to it with minimal heat 38c idle 45c full (less then my 1.4tbird was at idle) and less noise (dropped the need for one of my 120mm case fans and 6800rpm hsf) and perfect stability....
EDIT: you can check out tomshardware latest p4 comparison...look where the p4 2.2ghz i850 is and then figure from that where I would be 2.4ghz 533fsb and memory bandwidth just over i850...if you figure conservative that the difference will lie somewhere in the middle between the p4 2.2 400fsb and the p4 2.4 533fsb with pc1066 rdram you will see the 2.4 will win 70 percent of appzs against the athlon 2000+ and quite a few by over 15 percent...Only once does it even tie the athlon 1800+ xp out of like 20 test. I think that sinks you lame excuse for a thread, snatch...If one is locked at pc2100 memory score at 2.4ghz I would imagine it would lean closer to the p4 2.2ghz score in the test. But many who have 1.6a's will likley be running ddr at 300mhz and therefore be around 2300 in memory scores anyway and therefore I feel would score better then a 2.2ghz 400fsb i850 platform.
rememer that in those reviews thay usually concluded the athlon xp was a better chip based only on the fact the lead of the 2.2ghz wasn't so significant as to justify the cost of the 2.2ghz northwood...In there lies some of the argument for the 1.6a and 1.8a northwoods...
also remember that the 2.2ghz northwood was running stock 400fsb why many if not all are hitting 533fsb plus with the ocing on the 1.6 and 1.8a's....
BASIC MATH AND BASIC LOGICAL DEDUCTION!!!!
If a 2.2ghz northwood stock beats an athlon xp 2000+ stock in majority of appz then an 2.4ghz northwood with a 533fsb (like mine 1.8a@2.4ghz) will beat a 2000+ athlon stock...I am also coupling that with pc2700 333ddr support where I get memory bandwidth numbers above the i850 rambus platform. Probably more comparable to athlon 2200++...which isn't out and by no means is a certain when ocing an 2000+ athlon. I neither wanted the noise, excess heat, or cost of costly aftermarket hsf combo.
You ppl (and I hate to call ppl amd zealots cause I still like and wholeheartedly support amd) need to just face current facts...current facts...tomorrow is another day and god knows I hop amd stays right in the race to make these cpus so damn inexpensive.
I know ppl will say it is hard to see the real world difference, but when you run dvd to divx encoding even 1-2fps can make the difference in tens of minutes when you are doing a 2 hour movie multiple pass with fully encoded ac3 soundtrack and average bitrate of 1900-2000 on a 2 cd rip....
I have also noticed the faster bootup, quicker responsiveness....also notice better performance in my scanning and editing photos as well...I am sure the memory bandwidth has a lot to do with that....I am not a big gamer so I can't comment on that.
For me an upgrade to a 2000+ athlon would have at the time been 262 dollars shipped for an oem chip with another 20 bucks for a basic bare minimum hsf...then I ran into the issues of slower sis735 chipset nterms of memory bandwidth and ocing capabilities...So I was looking at getting iwill 333ddr board cause I would sooner eat bugs then go via...Add in 100 shipped and I was at 362 dollars...
Instead I got 1.8a northwood with retail fan for 214 shipped then got Asus p4s333 mob for 117 shipped...sold crucial ram for 142.50 bought pc2700 kingmax (5ns) for 186.00 for a plus 43.50 and my total for the system upgrade was 374.50...
What I got was a 2.4ghz 533fsb system running memory bandwidths 500mb/s better then athlon kt266a system...I would have needed like I said an athlon 2200+ to equal that...I got to it with minimal heat 38c idle 45c full (less then my 1.4tbird was at idle) and less noise (dropped the need for one of my 120mm case fans and 6800rpm hsf) and perfect stability....
EDIT: you can check out tomshardware latest p4 comparison...look where the p4 2.2ghz i850 is and then figure from that where I would be 2.4ghz 533fsb and memory bandwidth just over i850...if you figure conservative that the difference will lie somewhere in the middle between the p4 2.2 400fsb and the p4 2.4 533fsb with pc1066 rdram you will see the 2.4 will win 70 percent of appzs against the athlon 2000+ and quite a few by over 15 percent...Only once does it even tie the athlon 1800+ xp out of like 20 test. I think that sinks you lame excuse for a thread, snatch...If one is locked at pc2100 memory score at 2.4ghz I would imagine it would lean closer to the p4 2.2ghz score in the test. But many who have 1.6a's will likley be running ddr at 300mhz and therefore be around 2300 in memory scores anyway and therefore I feel would score better then a 2.2ghz 400fsb i850 platform.
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