What's the fuss? P4 1.6 o/c'ed to 2.3 still probably not faster than comparably priced AthlonXP

[The Sauce]

I see a lot of talk here about how great the P4 is overclocking and people are starting to build Pentium systems again. But if you look at it, even if you can overclock a 1.6 ($130) Northwood to 2.2+ MHz its still a slower processor than the XP 1800 ($130), which can also easily be overclocked. I guess I just dont understand all the kudos Intel is getting for putting out an inferior product just because it can be overclocked (and even overclocked is still inferior). I can see no reason to switch back to Intel at this point based on the data I have seen. Any data out there to the contrary? Or is everyone here just being seduced by the MHz?

 

[KenAF]

Have you been reading the forum at all? If you want to know why people are upgrading from Athlon to Northwood, read the Northwood P4 threads. We already have quite a number of people who report noticeably greater performance and responsiveness when upgrading from 1.4GHz to 1.6GHz Athlon to a $140 2.4GHz P4. And of course, a number of forum members are running their 1.6A processors at 2.55 to 2.65GHz. Certainly, there are some members that have not been able to tell the difference between a 1.6GHz Athlon and a P4-2400...but the number of people that have found a very discernible difference (and it probably takes a 15+% difference to notice) is quite surprising.

If you look to Tomshardware, the P4 2400 bests every Athlon, even those overclocked to 1866MHz (2300+) with watercooling. I don't know what results you're looking at...perhaps Sisoft Sandra, where the Athlon has always maintained an artificially high advantage that does not reflect actual responsiveness? Is the P4 @ 2400MHz faster in every conceivable test? No...but it is faster in tests that matter--those tests where you can see and feel the difference (and other tests that you cannot).

Ken, who uses three AMD systems, and no P4 systems, but is not completely blind.

 

[ramashiva]

You AMD diehards just don't get it. The Pentium 4 Northwood is not an inferior product. It has a 512k L2 cache and .13 micron technology. It uses much less power and runs much cooler than the Athlon XP. There have been many comparison benchmarks of the Athlon XP versus the Pentium 4 Northwood. Bottom line -- Intel has left AMD in the dust, and this situation will not change until AMD moves to .13 micron technology, which Intel has already mastered with the Pentium III Tualatins and Pentium 4 Northwoods.

Oh, did I mention that people are routinely getting 50% overclocks with air cooling using the 1.6A and 1.8A Northwoods?

 

[The Sauce]

<< You AMD diehards just don't get it. >>


Eh, that's not it. I just care about what's faster. Then name stamped on the chip makes no difference. I still have a celeron 366 -> 550 system here right next to my Athlon. I just hadn't seen any evidence of the P4 being faster...maybe overclocked to 2.5 but how many of them make it there?



<< routinely getting 50% overclocks with air cooling using the 1.6A and 1.8A Northwoods >>


So you can expect to get a 1.8A to 2.7!?! Routinely? If so I might be buying soon.

 

[KenAF]

> So you can expect to get a 1.8A to 2.7!?! Routinely? If so I might be buying soon.

The 1.8A appears to clock no better than the 1.6A, with a typical max of 2.65GHz; there is no reason to choose the 1.8A over the cheaper 1.6A. The P4 2.0A, however, which drops to $220 online in April, and $180 online in May, does typically do 2700MHz, however, and sometimes 2900MHz.

In certain parts of Asia, the P4 2.4A's are already selling. Japanese and Taiwanese users have been able to clock these to 3.3GHz with improved air cooling, up from the 3.0GHz maximum for the 2.2A.

 

[ramashiva]

<<

<< You AMD diehards just don't get it. >>

Eh, that's not it. I just care about what's faster. Then name stamped on the chip makes no difference. I still have a celeron 366 -> 550 system here right next to my Athlon. I just hadn't seen any evidence of the P4 being faster...maybe overclocked to 2.5 but how many of them make it there?

<< routinely getting 50% overclocks with air cooling using the 1.6A and 1.8A Northwoods >>

So you can expect to get a 1.8A to 2.7!?! Routinely? If so I might be buying soon. >>



Well, maybe not routinely for the 1.8A. Definitely routinely for the 1.6A. The Overclocker's Database currently lists 5 air-cooled overclocks for the 1.8A between 2690 mhz and 2734 mhz.

As for KenAF's comment that there is no reason to choose the 1.8A over the 1.6A, there are in fact good reasons to choose the 1.8A --

You are pretty much guaranteed a 2.4 ghz overclock by setting the fsb to 133 mhz. 2.4 ghz is certainly not guaranteed with the 1.6A. With the fsb at 133 mhz, your PCI and AGP busses are running at spec -- no overclock at all. At 133 mhz (DDR266) you can use 2-2-2 memory timings. At 150 mhz (DDR300), you will probably have to use 2.5-2-2 or even 2.5-3-3 memory timings, which will result in memory bandwidth comparable or worse than 133-mhz fsb and 2-2-2 timing.

 

[jonmcc33]

"But if you look at it, even if you can overclock a 1.6 ($130) Northwood to 2.2+ MHz its still a slower processor than the XP 1800 ($130), which can also easily be overclocked."

The 1.6A can be overclocked well beyond 2.2GHz. I've seen anywhere from 2.4GHz to 2.53GHz. That is something no Athlon XP 1800 can touch.

Still, that won't make me go out and get it merely because I hate Intel.

 

[Dug]

<< I can see no reason to switch back to Intel at this point based on the data I have seen. Any data out there to the contrary? Or is everyone here just being seduced by the MHz? >>



I'll give you 3 reasons. Quiet, stable, cool.

I swithced from a 1.33 oc/ 1.55 to a 1.6 oc to 2.3 and love it.

And all you need is the stock heasink and fan. You probably don't even need any case fans, the power supply fan should suffice. That's how cool they run.

 

[Sohcan]

<< But if you look at it, even if you can overclock a 1.6 ($130) Northwood to 2.2+ MHz its still a slower processor than the XP 1800 ($130)....Any data out there to the contrary? >>

In Anand's review the 2.2GHz Northwood (a rather conservative OC for the 1.6A) beat the XP 1800+ in 16 of the 18 tests.

 

[JellyBaby]

<< Northwood to 2.2+ MHz its still a slower processor than the XP 1800 >>

As others have said you have it backwards. And, really, if we were to sit Mr. Snatchface (sorry ramashiva, wrong fella!) down in front of both machines he would not be able to tell the difference. And even if you are right performance is NOT everything to everyone. Some of us will gladly give up a couple of numbers in a benchmark to achieve the highest levels of stability.

 

[odog]

turn off the hyper zealotry warp drive buddy.....


even i, the cheap sunuvabeotch AMD fan craves a northwood......


at only about $275(Asus P4B266-C/1.6A retail) it's a damn fine upgrade for earily DDR adopters(even new builds) looking for a thrilling overclock and one helluva speed demon!

 

[AndyCunningham]

The other thing to remember is that with a higher FSB, a 1.6A overclocked to 2.2 will actually perform better than a real 2.2 GHz P4. Also with some newer P4 motherboards you can get the PCI and AGP buses locked at default speed, so it should be very easy to get the FSB upto 150-160 MHz.

 

[ST4RCUTTER]

I have to agree with the others here. At this point, AMD has nothing compelling to compete against the P4 at the high end. This is pretty much to be expected. AMD is in a transition phase from an older process to a newer. This is similar to the position that Intel found themselves in over a year ago. Their older model (P3) couldn't ramp over 1Ghz on .18um, and their newer P4 couldn't attain the speed it needed on the .18um process to overcome its low IPC. When the Thoroughbred is in production things will probably change, but that won't happen for another couple of months, and the most impactful change won't occur until the Hammer arrives at the end of this year. With the Hammer comes things like SOI, hypertransport, integrated memory controllers, SSE2 etc. It should be interesting...

 

[BD231]

Intel has left AMD in the dust

LOL!!. OK thats just a tad overboard my friend. In a month or so, AMD will break out with something new that will of course compete with the P4. It's amazing how simple minded people can be about silly things like this. Where are you AGodSpeed!!!!!, now there is a guy who will put this thread to rest.

 

[PlatinumGold]

As others have said you have it backwards. And, really, if we were to sit Mr. ramashiva down in front of both machines he would not be able to tell the difference. And even if you are right performance is NOT everything to everyone. Some of us will gladly give up a couple of numbers in a benchmark to achieve the highest levels of stability.



jelly

not that i entirely disagree w/ u, but look at my sig. i have an xp 1700+ and a P4 1.6a @2.24.

i can see, REALLY SEE a significant difference in performance but contrary to AMD fanboi's opinions, the P4 is actually SIGNIFICANTLY faster. i haven't played all the games and such that are benchmarked, but here's where the intel is faster for me.

it's boots up MUCH faster. it is faster w/ graphics (photoshop etc).

it just has quicker overall response.

also, even if it weren't faster but had equivalent performance i'd still buy the intel over the AMD if for no other reason than because the Intel won't burn itself out w/o proper cooling.

 

[mrman3k]

Well since we are on the topic I have a few comments and questions. Okay two things, one is that I do not see a huge real-world performance difference between these procs. Also RDRAM will it not be unstable if you are running a 133MHz FSB? Also I heard that DDR memory bottlenecks the P4 when it goes over 2.4GHz, can you confirm this. Is the P4A as cool as a PIIITualtin, or are there any numbers for how hot these procs run, I am possible interested in making a computer for the TV and want a very cool running computer, possibly without a CPU fan, or with a CPU fan and no case fans. I heard that if there is a good heatsink, the PIII Tualtin can run w/o a fan.

 

[ToBeMe]

Yes...............RD is fine at 133 or even higher............I can attest to this since my main system is a 2.2 now at 2.8 on my TH7II-RAID!!!!

I also just swapped out my other 2.2 on an Asus P4S333 for a 1.6 I ordered. (putting the other 2.2 on another TH7II!) and booted the thing first time at 140FSB!!! I installed XP Pro, and now am at 150FSB (2.4) with absolutely no problems!!! Of course I'm running the XMS PC2700 so that should also help! I'm just absolutely loving these Northwoods............anyone whom says the performance doesn't keep up has either never tried one, or, is just a "fan boi"!!! I just can't wait now for the AMD .13 chips................I can just imagine how good they are going to be....... This is going to be one fun damned year for us O/C'ers!!!!

 

[Pabster]

I've got to concur.

Northwood raises the bar on performance. I've never seen such silky-smooth machines. In fact, I'm using the 1.6A + P4S333 as the base configuration for each machine in my network.

Considering the current prices vs performance, Northwood is a winner. The machines are (practically) silent and faster than snot. Not just in any particular app/game, but that "smooth" feeling which is easy to dismiss but I can relate to

 

[JellyBaby]

PlatinumGold, I'm absolutely agreeing with you. There is no conflict.

<< Northwood raises the bar on performance. >>

Sure seems that way and what's so wrong about that? AMD had its day under the sun and will get another I'm sure. But for now the shiznitz is with Intel.

 

[Goldfish]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this thread with detiorate into an Intel/AMD flame fest.

 

[Challenger]

<< I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this thread with detiorate into an Intel/AMD flame fest >>




I have to disagree,this has been a very civil discussion compared to alot of other threads I have seen

 

[AGodspeed]

I'm going to make just one very minor correction to the statements here by saying that Intel?s Northwood is the price/performance winner solely because of their extraordinary overclocking potential.

No doubt, the 1.6A will go down in history as a successful successor to the 300A of yore. Out of all the consistent posters here on AT, a majority of them overclock on a 24/7 basis. But just keep things in perspective. 1.6A sales aren't exactly going to be raking in the dough for the mighty behemoth Intel, not by a long shot. Nor will these sales gain them any noticeable market share (because we are the minority).

So to put this thread to rest (as bdog231 requested ), if you're going to be doing some extreme overclocking, Intel's Northwood processors (specifically the 1.6A) is the no-brainer of the century. If you're only going to be doing minor to average overclocking, it's still very tough to beat AMD's AXP processors on a price/performance ratio. And yes, a stability ratio too.

 

[jonmcc33]

also, even if it weren't faster but had equivalent performance i'd still buy the intel over the AMD if for no other reason than because the Intel won't burn itself out w/o proper cooling.

Intel also has actual temperature readings from the CPU instead of replying upon the motherboard, so you know actual temps.

Also RDRAM will it not be unstable if you are running a 133MHz FSB? Also I heard that DDR memory bottlenecks the P4 when it goes over 2.4GHz, can you confirm this.

DDR RAM doesn't bottleneck the P4, it's just that RDRAM is better overall.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that this thread with detiorate into an Intel/AMD flame fest.

Nah, it's rather civil and it's more of an overclocking topic than it is a Intel vs AMD. I'm an avid AMD owner but I'll admit that an 800MHz+ overclock for the P4 1.6A is real freaking good.

 

[Athlon4all]

I disagree. A 2.2GHz NW just barely loses to a XP 2000+ (some times beats it, sort of like it was when it was T-Bird 1.4 vs a 2.0GHz Willy). A P4 1.6 is a great value with the right board (Abit TH7II or Asus P4B266. Prefferably TH7II).

 

[GTaudiophile]

Another thing to mention: stability is really a non-issue with those "$275 ASUS P4B266-C/1.6A" setups.