What's the difference between normalizing relations with North Korea and our normalization with China?

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Golden Member
Jul 22, 2003
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When we normalized with China, it was (and some say still is) a brutal supressing government.

The case about North Korea killing US servicemen is moot, as the Chinese were fighting alongside the NK's during the Korean war.

Why not normalize with these guys? I see them as no different than China in 1972.
 

g paw

Member
Oct 13, 2006
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Because this administration has devided the world into good guys and bad guys recognizing that some countries are gooder, their word, that others. As long as you're not too defiant, a country can get on the good guy list and we'll talk to you. Problem with not talking to the "bad guys" is that it is totally counterproductive. Plus there are a lot of people in the world that don't think they should blindly follow the U S just because we have the most powerful military in the world at this time if they have a leader that believes this, they are classed bad guys.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
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The Chinese governemnt, on some level, does actually care for its people. While how they go about that caring (supression of dissent, free speech, religion, etc..) is the subject of much criticism, their economic reforms were basically required given the failure of Communism around the world. To survive in any decent shape China had to accept some economic freedoms and engage the capitalist world in trade using their strongest asset: abundant cheap labor.

North Korea is a Stalinist state that exists only to sustain its ruler. He dosen't care about the people and has repeatedly sacrificed millions of lives to maintain his wealth/rule. Even if we were completely open with NK, Kim Jong Il wouldn't allow us to interact/influnce his people since he would lose all control fairly quickly.



 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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China was an open joke in the UN---as the USA pretended Taiwan, a tiny pipssqeak of a Island was the real UN represenative of the chinese people---and Mainland China--then with a population under a billion--was not---and in one of the few positive acts Nixon ever did, Nixon ended this total charade and farse---and now China---for the first time in 500 hundred years---is looking someplace else than totally inward.---it will change the world---but for the better is a questions for future historians

N. Korea on the other hand looks only at Kim Jong ll---his portrait is everywhere in N. Korea---should the US hold direct talks with him?---I for one say yes---but I think the death or deposing of Kim Jong ll is a precursor to any hope for N. Korea.---but I could be wrong---and the US offering some hope to N. Korea of escaping from under the thumb of China may open up some options---and step one there---is to hold direct talks---and plant some seeds---seeds that may take years to grow---but it may beat the weeds now growing.

You can light some candles or curse the darkness.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
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NK has also been quite belligerent for some time. Bush has decided that he is the only one allowed to do sabre-ratteling.

While it is a possibility that full normalization of relatrions would embolden NK (I don't think we should do it now), Bush needs to be smart enough to find a way to talk to them. With all of this Administration's demonstrated ability to twist words and phrases to create new meanings, I wouldn't think it would be too hard for them to make an announcement to the world a set of constraints that need to be met for a sit down; have some talks; and suggest (with some plausability) that NK had knuckled under and met the demands for talks. We could then suggest that since all of the posturing was a usless game that we could excel at as well, we could forgo it and actually get down to business.

Bush says they are not trustworthy, so we can't have bilateral talks. Does he think multilateral talks will automatically make them more trustworthy? Since Bush is not exactly the paragon of trustworthyness anyway, there should be some inherent level of understanding how to deal with it.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
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Comparing China with NK is apples and oranges. China is a haven of freedom and prosperity compared to NK.
 

libs0n

Member
May 16, 2005
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Originally posted by: blackangst1
Comparing China with NK is apples and oranges. China is a haven of freedom and prosperity compared to NK.

That may be true today, but it certainly wouldn't have been in 1972 under Mao Zedong, one of the greatest mass murderers in history. Funny how that move by Nixon, which must certainly be part of the reason why China is now an orange, would be denounced as appeasement were it to happen today, by the usual suspects.

Flashback to early 2001. What was the priority of the Bush administration? Withdrawing from the ABM treaty and implementing ballistic missile defense. Considering North Korea is the main boogeyman for the justification of that waste of money and marginot line, detente is the last thing Bush had up his sleeve. Enemies are tools you can use to manipulate the populace to achieve your ends; the more heinous the threat the better.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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I think the OP needs to educate her/himself.

This is the same NK that has kidnapped hundreds if not thousands of Japanese and S Koreans.
The same leadership that allowed as many as a million of its people to starve while still working on a nuclear weapons program. (Which by everyone?s account is a very expensive program.)
The same leadership that after being told by EVERYONE in the world including China to not set off a test nuke did just that.

And when the world reacts by placing sanctions on them they decide that they should go test another one?

The leadership of NK is totally unpredictable and not worth dealing with. The only one on one contact we should have with them is to offer Kim a plane flight out of the country and a nice house some place nice where he can spend the rest of life.
Otherwise there is no reason at all to talk to them.
 

0

Golden Member
Jul 22, 2003
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I think the OP needs to educate her/himself.

You need to get the education.

The cultural revolution in China, the repression, starvation, mass murder prior to 1972 is what I'm talking about.
 

Forsythe

Platinum Member
May 2, 2004
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Originally posted by: 0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I think the OP needs to educate her/himself.

You need to get the education.

The cultural revolution in China, the repression, starvation, mass murder prior to 1972 is what I'm talking about.

Noone is denying that. But compared to NK they're like America is to China.
Keyword, compared.
NK is so much more separated from the world.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
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There is only one difference between China and NK that matters; China is becoming an open market with hundreds of millions of people to exploit for cheap labor by western corporations. This is the only difference that matters with respect to our foreign policy.
 

libs0n

Member
May 16, 2005
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Here's a opinion piece by a columnist I enjoy reading summing up the situation nicely. Anyone with eyes to see can see the motive behind North Korea's actions, but as I said earlier the Bush administration had motive of its own to alienate North Korea, even if they would have taken the same path anyway due to their asinine ideology.

North Korea: A Cry for Help
By Gwynne Dyer

9 October 2006

In psychobabble, what North Korea has just done would be
characterised as "a cry for help," like a teenage kid burning his parents'
house down because he's misunderstood. Granted, it's an unusually loud cry
for help, but now that North Korean dictator Kim Jong-Il has got our
attention, what are we going to do about him?

North Korea's nuclear weapon test early Monday morning makes it the
ninth nuclear power, and by far the least predictable. It probably has
only a few nuclear weapons, and it certainly cannot deliver them to any
targets beyond South Korea and Japan, but the notion of nuclear weapons in
the hands of a "crazy state" frightens people.

So relax: Kim Jong-Il is not crazy. Former US Secretary of State
Madeleine Albright, who has negotiated with him, says he is well informed
and not at all delusional. He pretends to be unstable because his regime's
survival depends on blackmailing foreign countries into giving it the food
and fuel that it cannot produce for itself. Rogue nukes are a big part of
that image, but like any professional blackmailer, he would hand them over
for the right price.

Put yourself in Kim's (platform) shoes. In 1994 he inherited a
country from his father, Kim Il-Sung, that was already in acute crisis.
The centralised Stalinist economy had been failing for a decade, and in
1991 post-Soviet Russia cut off the flow of subsidised oil, fertiliser and
food, effectively halving North Korea's Gross Domestic Product.

Yet Kim needed the support of the military and the Party officials
who controlled North Korea's "command" economy, and derived their power and
privileges from it. Radical economic reforms would threaten their
positions. Kim's inheritance was far from secure, so he left the economy
alone and used the threat of going nuclear to extort aid from foreign
countries.

The younger Kim had been put in charge of North Korea's nuclear
weapons programme by his father in the late 1980s. By 1993, Washington was
so concerned that it offered Pyongyang a deal: stop the programme, and the
US would give North Korea huge amounts of foreign aid. Kim Il-Sung died in
July, 1994, and it was his son who approved the "Framework Agreement" with
the United States that October in which the US promised to send Pyongyang
half a million tonnes of oil a year and eventually to build the North
Koreans two nuclear reactors.

China, South Korea and other neighbours chipped in, sending grain,
other food, and medicines. Kim Jong-Il won some breathing space to
consolidate his rule -- but then a series of floods and droughts
overwhelmed the country's inefficient collective farms, and up to a million
North Koreans starved. By 2002, in desperation, Kim Jong-Il played the
nuclear card again.

American intelligence picked up the renewed nuclear activity, and
in October, 2002 the North Koreans admitted to US Assistant Secretary of
State James Kelly that they had a secret nuclear weapons programme in
defiance of the 1994 Agreed Framework. (Blackmail only works if the target
is aware of the threat.)

This time, the US refused to yield to blackmail, so the past four
years have seen North Korea withdraw from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation
Treaty, throw out International Atomic Energy Agency inspectors, test-fire
missiles near South Korea and Japan on several occasions, and now test an
actual nuclear weapon. Kim Jong-Il only has one card, and he keeps trying
to play it.

Kim's crude tactics were always intensely irritating to the other
parties to the Six-Power Talks on North Korea's nuclear weapons (the US,
Russia, China, Japan and South Korea), and now they are furious with the
little dictator. Even China, North Korea's only ally, called Pyongyang's
test "stupid." But what are they actually going to do about it?

Sanctions, I hear you cry. But the US has had sanctions against
North Korea since 1953, and Japan has had them for more than a decade
already -- and if China stops sending aid, the entire economy will
collapse, millions will starve, and millions more will flee the country. I
was at the Foreign Ministry in Seoul in 1994 on the day that Kim Il-Sung
died, and I remember the panic that reigned as South Korea's diplomatic
elite contemplated the prospect of 25 million starving North Koreans
suddenly landing in their laps.

The regime in Beijing is equally appalled at the notion of millions
of North Korean refugees pouring across its border, so there may be
sanctions, but they will not be life-threatening for Pyongyang. Which
brings us back to the distasteful business of bargaining with blackmailers.

Kim would probably relinquish his nuclear weapons if he were
offered enough food and oil aid, an end to trade embargoes, and a firm US
promise not to try to overthrow him. None of that would cost very much, and
the US is not going to attack him anyway. Nor has Kim any intention of
attacking anybody, especially with nuclear weapons: he would have no hope
of surviving the instant and crushing retaliation by American nuclear
weapons. So it's just a question of persuading him to stop the nonsense.

But what about the principle of the thing? Won't other countries
be tempted to follow North Korea's example if we don't punish it for
developing nuclear weapons? You know, like we did when Israel, India and
Pakistan developed theirs.