What's the deal with video cards today?

[mrkun]

I got my 7800 GT CO for $290 AR. *shrug*

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: shady28

Originally posted by: apoppin

wasn't the 5900 one of the 'top' cards nvidia produced?

. . . and the 6600 - introduced nearly TWO years ago [april '04] - is near the 'bottom' . . .

try comparing the new 7800 series . . . any one - with the 5900. 😉
[and the 7900s are due next month . . . progress is real]

Yes it was (5900). I wouldn't have a problem with the comparison, but the price range we are talking about is entirely different now. When I bought my Fx 5900 it was under $180. That's roughly in the average price range of a 6600GT. What I stated in my original post - that now top line cards simply *cost more* - and you can't get a whole lot better than what was around 2 years ago *at the same price*.

Yes I would agree that for *most* DX 9 games (9.0c specifically) the new cards run faster. But, the architecture is not clearly superior. Memory bandwidth of a 6600GT is much lower, and the max pixels processed per clock is the same. To get something clearly superior, you have to go to a 6800.

Relatively speaking, that's pathetic advancement compared to what we had 5 years ago. We aren't really getting more hardware performance for our money, just better support for new software features.

but you again are basing your conclusions on flawed info . . . the 6600GT has been as low as $85 after MIR and is MUCH cheaper than the [awesome deal you got on your] $180 5900.

i just spent $20 more than you . . . 10 days ago . . . and got an x850xt that has at least 3 times more performance than your card.

and a 6800GS . . . roughly the equivalent of the 6800GT . . . is barely more than you spent 3 years ago . . . and you ARE getting much more hardware performance for your moneyincluding MUCH better support for new software features . . .

try playing F.E.A.R. [or CoD2] on your 5800 . . . it probably runs at 4x6 [if you want "details" and probably looks pretty awful compared to a $180 card today.

Do you know there is a pretty 'big' pro football game on tv?
:Q

i'll check in later 😉

😀

 

[RussianSensation]

Ok whats the problem here?

X850Pro PCIe is $179 and doubles FX5900
6800GS PCIe is $200 and it easily doubles FX5900 performance.
X850XT PCIe is $218 on Newegg and it more than doubles FX5900 performance
X800GTO2 PCIe cards unlock to beat X850XT cards.

Now lets look at AGP cards

X850Pro AGP is $235
6800GS AGP is $221
X850XT AGP is $392
6800GT AGP is $509

The problem is not that there are no cards that smoke 5900FX for same price you paid, it is just few of them are available for those prices for AGP. But that's a totally different argument in itself. Chances are if you are considering buying a graphics card today, unless you have A64 S754, P4 3.0+ S478, you better be buying a PCIe socket mobo anyways.

 

[Wellsoul2]

Originally posted by: shady28

Yes it was (5900). I wouldn't have a problem with the comparison, but the price range we are talking about is entirely different now. When I bought my Fx 5900 it was under $180. That's roughly in the average price range of a 6600GT. What I stated in my original post - that now top line cards simply *cost more* - and you can't get a whole lot better than what was around 2 years ago *at the same price*.

Yes I would agree that for *most* DX 9 games (9.0c specifically) the new cards run faster. But, the architecture is not clearly superior. Memory bandwidth of a 6600GT is much lower, and the max pixels processed per clock is the same. To get something clearly superior, you have to go to a 6800.

Relatively speaking, that's pathetic advancement compared to what we had 5 years ago. We aren't really getting more hardware performance for our money, just better support for new software features.

My two cents (mostly already said by others)
1. Don't bother shopping for a video card in local stores - bigtime ripoff
2. After three years you need a whole new rig or probably at least
new CPU-MB-PS-More memory to run current games.
3. The games ARE better - You need both speed and new features.
4. Specs are most useful when comparing same generation parts.
5. IQ and benchmarks of games you play are more important than specs.

 

[moonboy403]

why would you even use the price in retail store?!

as of this moment, eVGA 6600 gt cost just 120 after a 20 dollars rebate

which would smoke your FX card for 60 dollars less

just check on the anandtech realtime price engine!!!

 

[moonboy403]

and if you wanna talk about progress in video card performance

just look at 7800 gtx...it equals to 6800 ultra running in sli in most cases

and you have to look at the performance of the FX card in modern games....in one case...your FX was only pulling around 17fps while a 6600gt was pulling like 50fps

and that was only on 1024x768

 

[rise]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
http://www.tomshardware.com/2004/10/04/vga_charts_iv/page10.html

I think that pretty well says it all.

so what, appopins card is only 4x as fast as the 5900. it cost $20 more than the 5900 did 4 years ago. thats pretty pathetic really.









😛

 

[kmmatney]

I do understand the original point of the OP, however. Video card prices have gone up. I had a $120 Ti4200 for 2 years, and when I went to upgrade last Febuary, I could not find a card for the same price with better performance. I had to spend over $200 to get a 6600GT! I was pretty pissed off that the mainstream video card prices had gone up so much, and it seemed that no progress had been made in 2 years! I was expecting to spend the same amount of money, and get better performance due to the progress over 2 years. I did get better performance, but had to spend more money to get it.

Things are much better now, and I'm pretty happy with my X800GTO2, great bang for the buck. However you have to spend about $200 to get the same relative performance that $120 gave you three years ago. Inflation hasn't been that high...

Part of the issue has been the rise of LCD monitors. We need more power to game at native resolutions.

 

[aka1nas]

What the OP isn't realizing is that newer games use shaders more heavily, which is the weak point of the FX line. That is why the FX 5900 is worse than a 6600GT in most new games. The FX wins benchies on older games that don't rely heavily on shaders as it's greater fillrate can come into play. Unfortunately, you don't really need a card that fast to play quake 3 acceptably. This is why the FXs suck. Faster than really needed for old games, crappy at new games.

 

[moonboy403]

another question?

why is he only comparing his card to a 6600gt?

why not 6800gs or the gto? (falls in line at around $180)

 

[TecHNooB]

I'll sell you my RX800 for $150 >=) 12 Pixel Pipelines and its much cheaper than your FX5900 😀

 

[aboothman]

Few people seem to have paid attention to the major complaint here as Kmmatney said above. Inflation has not given enough reason for
card prices to raise to such insane proportions. I honestly cannot believe that people are argueing FOR the companies that are ripping them off.
It is truly a frustrating issue, and nearly enough to force me away from Comps to an X-Box 360.

Seriously, if I want to upgrade the video on an A64 939 AGP setup, I have to get a new MB, PSU and card. Of course all the new PSU are $90 and higher,
as the PSU manufacturers have realized they can rip us off too.

In the end I blame the war, and the a$$holes who wanted it. It was an excuse to jack prices for everything and beef up the economy.

Funny how a healty economy means screwing the people who make the country run. Sorry off topic 🙂

 

[Matthias99]

Basically, as has been pointed out many times before, bang/buck has been increasing more slowly than absolute performance, which has resulted in prices going up at the high end.

$150 today (6600GT) buys you better performance than a 9800Pro had at half the price they went for a few years back. $200 today (6800GS) buys you almost what $400 (6800GT) did two years ago. $300 today (7800GT) buys you performance you couldn't get two years ago at ANY price in a single card. $500 today (X1800XT) buys you performance that was barely (if at all) attainable with a high-end SLI setup (at least $800 for just the cards) two years ago. Considering how much money ATI and NVIDIA have to pour into R&D and initial manufacturing setup costs, this is not bad at all.

It's unrealistic to expect bang/buck to double every 12-18 months indefinitely (epsecially at the low end), as manufacturing expense does not scale linearly with chip size/speed, and R&D costs get higher as the chips get more complex. Without process changes, it costs WAY more than twice as much to make a chip with double the transistor count, and it's not easy to produce faster chips either. And due to fixed costs for wafer/PCB processing, it doesn't scale down as much as you might think. Just because they can profitably sell a 6600GT for $125 doesn't mean they can sell something the speed of a Ti4200 for $25, because there are a lot of fixed costs in there.

 

[v8envy]

Oh man, so much whining. I remember spending > 3 grand for a 486/33, 16 megs of ram, and a trident video card with a meg of ram on it. That was about a third of what my Nissan 4x4 truck cost at the dealer that year.

Yesterday I picked up an sempron64 3400+ box at a store for $125 after rebate. It's $300-ish without sales/rebates every day. Equivalent 4x4 pickup is over 20 grand. Do the relative math there. =)

That being said, the real problem is a high end 3d card is now required for adequate gameplay, even without a high res LCD. And high end has always been expensive. If you want a satisfactory gaming experience, you can no longer make do with a 'casual' or 'mainstream' graphics card. You have no choice but look at cards ATI and NVidia are targeting at the 'insane wacko with wallet diarrhea' segments. Which is why people are abandoning PC gaming in droves, and going console.

When the 4200/4600/4800 cards came out, the difference between the 3 cards was not enormous. You could get nearly the same performance out of the mainstream card as you got out of the enthusiast card -- about a 25-30% difference tops. That gap widened with the FX series cards, and has become a wide, wide chasm with the 6 and 7 series.

Now, the performance difference between a 4 pipe 'low end' card and 24 pipe 'enthusiast' card is around 600-700%. Which makes only the enthisiast cards worth considering, even if you are not a PC hobbyist.

 

[moonboy403]

that's because modern games r taking advantage of the raw power that the high end cards r providing

i mean...there's no comparison b/t the graphics of the games now and before

 

[shady28]

I have an AGP based A64 3500+ socket 939 w/1gig. So far nothing has really given it any hiccups except large PvP battles in WoW.

Since it's AGP based, the cards cost more now it seems. The 6800GS, which is the first up that I can see is clearly superior hardware to the old FX5900, is $228 minimum according to pricewatch. One of my requirements is to get 256 meg on the card, since mmorpgs like WoW have a ton of textures - and texture loading speed is important.

The 6600GT is really the only thing in the price range, a 128MB version for $140 according to pricewatch. Cant find a listing for a 256MB *AGP* version there, though there are some PCI-E versions. While this card is faster at most things than my old card, it is not faster at everything. Its memory bandwidth is about 40% less than my old card, as it is a 128 bit part not a 256 bit like the FX 5900.

I don't really want a radeon because, with Nvidias unified drivers, I already have drivers installed for any new nvidia card.

Oh and on the 'MIB' subject. The reason manufacturers use MIBs is because they know about 90% of people who buy things on MIBs don't actually turn in the MIB. This is a very well known tactic these companies use, and I personally do not buy anything based on a MIB. In fact, I usually ignore items advertised as on sale via a MIB for that reason.

What I wound up getting was a 6600 OC 256meg for $140, clocked up to 350mhz. Runner up was an x700 Pro 256meg, which would have been $187. Both of these cards are really comparable to what I already had - which is why I was complaining. Yes, for another $90 I could have gotten a faster card (6800GS) and so on and so forth. The same thing could have been said for what I got 2 years ago...

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: shady28

I have an AGP based A64 3500+ socket 939 w/1gig. So far nothing has really given it any hiccups except large PvP battles in WoW.

Since it's AGP based, the cards cost more now it seems. The 6800GS, which is the first up that I can see is clearly superior hardware to the old FX5900, is $228 minimum according to pricewatch. One of my requirements is to get 256 meg on the card, since mmorpgs like WoW have a ton of textures - and texture loading speed is important.

The 6600GT is really the only thing in the price range, a 128MB version for $140 according to pricewatch. Cant find a listing for a 256MB *AGP* version there, though there are some PCI-E versions. While this card is faster at most things than my old card, it is not faster at everything. Its memory bandwidth is about 40% less than my old card, as it is a 128 bit part not a 256 bit like the FX 5900.

I don't really want a radeon because, with Nvidias unified drivers, I already have drivers installed for any new nvidia card.

Oh and on the 'MIB' subject. The reason manufacturers use MIBs is because they know about 90% of people who buy things on MIBs don't actually turn in the MIB. This is a very well known tactic these companies use, and I personally do not buy anything based on a MIB. In fact, I usually ignore items advertised as on sale via a MIB for that reason.

What I wound up getting was a 6600 OC 256meg for $140, clocked up to 350mhz. Runner up was an x700 Pro 256meg, which would have been $187. Both of these cards are really comparable to what I already had - which is why I was complaining. Yes, for another $90 I could have gotten a faster card (6800GS) and so on and so forth. The same thing could have been said for what I got 2 years ago...

yes, cards are getting more expensive and AGP is ending for the high end . . . perhaps they are copying car manufacturers . . . first naming conventions [GT/GS/XT] . . . now prices. 😛

the question i have . . . doesn't your games play and look "better" on your 6600 than your old card? . . . if not, i'd return it and save up a bit longer.

 

[moonboy403]

it might be true that people are not turning in their mib
but it doesn't mean that you have to do the same thing


it's not like the company's gonna scam you

i mean...if you want a whopping out of your old FX5900
just get the x850 from whateve microcenter they mentioned
for like $200

i personally don't find anything wrong with the mib that they offer

 

[DrZoidberg]

have u even looked at the real world benchmarks comparing 6600gt to 5900 in games like Doom 3, WOW?

The 6600gt is double the speed than 5900 in doom3, about 30% faster than 5900 in WOW.

The 5900 has only 4 true pipelines, check this anandtech link

And if other people are too lazy to send their MIB doesnt mean u shouldnt send it. I mean if u want to ignore $20 cashback thats your problem.

 

[moonboy403]

i totally agree with DrZoidberg

hardware specs are not to be trusted, they're just pr marketing crap (sort of)

you should only look at real world performance

 

[shady28]

Originally posted by: DrZoidberg
And if other people are too lazy to send their MIB doesnt mean u shouldnt send it. I mean if u want to ignore $20 cashback thats your problem.

You and apparently many others need to educate yourselves. I begin to wonder if you actually purchase your own gear, or your parents do.

http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=021005F

"Now, here's the interesting part," the reader wrote. "The rebate fulfillment house will GUARANTEE IN WRITING to the manufacturer that the percentage of rebates claimed as presented in this table will not be exceeded. They will eat the cost if it is."

Small wonder then that the rebate house sometimes just can't see that receipt you're certain you included in the envelope. If they wind up paying the rebates out of their own pocket, it makes sense to just pay off those who scream the loudest. "

I was wary about this arrangement, but they assured me that the rebate would be easy to get.
...
So far, I have received denial letters for every single rebate. Even where I enclosed the UPC codes that I painstakingly cut from the boxes, the denial letters allege that documents I enclosed were not in fact enclosed. Other denial letters state requirements for documents that I do not believe were listed on the original rebate form.

 

[moonboy403]

that happens when you have mib for small companies perhaps

from my own personally experience, i always get the mib
simple as that

companies such as evga and bfg ain't gonna rip you off on rebate 😉

 

[Demoth]

I paid about $50 for my 6600 close to a year ago (refurbed Gigabyte) and clocked it right out of the box at 550/700. Playing WoW at max setting my gameplay and graphics are identicle to my buddies running dual 7800GTX in SLI.

If your running a 19" LCD like most gamers these days, the majority of higher end cards are overkill. Unless your playing very specific titles, like FEAR, most gamers could be just fine doing some research and getting a $70 card.

At no other time could I get something as good as my 6600, a card that overclocks like a monster and plays all current games great for this price point. The best I could do before that was the GEForce 2 SE which was $75 and in a much lower league to the 8500 and TI cards at the time which were in the $300 range.

Yeah, the very top end is expensive, but the top end is far more then most people even need, unlike at other times when the 9700 pro was a top end $400 card but every gamer using it was getting benefit from going for the highest speed card.

For most, the 7800GTs clocked from factory at 460/1150 are $285 and more then needed if running CRT at high res or a 20 inch LCD. Thos running 30 inch LCDs can likely justify and afford higher end then that.

It is true also that card manufacturers are jacking up prices. The next gen card in the Xbox2 costs less then $150 to produce and get to market, that is what the very top end could be selling for if there were as many vid card makers as there are mem chip producers. Fact is, because there are only 2 major card makers and 2 major CPU makers, plus only 1 real OS supplier, those 3 items tend to be the high cost part of a system for top end while everything else is dirt cheap.

 

[moonboy403]

with all being said

it all comes down to what resolution and setting you wanna game at
you get what you pay for

in my opinion....nothing's ever overkill
turning up aa/af can prove that

even when you have 7800 512 gtx sli...you still won't muster enough power to run 16aa in number of games

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: shady28

Originally posted by: DrZoidberg
And if other people are too lazy to send their MIB doesnt mean u shouldnt send it. I mean if u want to ignore $20 cashback thats your problem.

You and apparently many others need to educate yourselves. I begin to wonder if you actually purchase your own gear, or your parents do.

http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=021005F

"Now, here's the interesting part," the reader wrote. "The rebate fulfillment house will GUARANTEE IN WRITING to the manufacturer that the percentage of rebates claimed as presented in this table will not be exceeded. They will eat the cost if it is."

Small wonder then that the rebate house sometimes just can't see that receipt you're certain you included in the envelope. If they wind up paying the rebates out of their own pocket, it makes sense to just pay off those who scream the loudest. "

I was wary about this arrangement, but they assured me that the rebate would be easy to get.
...
So far, I have received denial letters for every single rebate. Even where I enclosed the UPC codes that I painstakingly cut from the boxes, the denial letters allege that documents I enclosed were not in fact enclosed. Other denial letters state requirements for documents that I do not believe were listed on the original rebate form.

there isn't ONE rebate i failed to get - UNLESS "i" screwed up - over the last 10 years.

1) follow the MIR instructions to a 't' - exactly [get your mom to read it for you if you dont' understand]
2) Mail it in at least a week before the due date
3) Keep copies of everything you send [including the rebate form and the PHONE No]
4) if it's a "big" one, send it registered mail [USPS' Proof of Mailing is not much 'proof' but useful in a dispute]

kust because YOU don't like MIRs doesn't mean they are dont work . . . they do . . . i EXPECT to get my $50 MIR on my x850xt . . .

that's pretty simple but many people ARE lazy or sloppy . . . as the writer of that article appears to be