What's the best 4wd / awd that still gets decent gas mileage?

[Juddog]

My old car is finally starting to bite the dust. Oil is burning off at an excessive rate, about a quart every two weeks and it just continues to have more and more problems. So hopefully someone here can toss me some suggestions.

So I'm looking at new cars, and I seem to be stuck trying to choose between Jeep (wrangler), Subaru (Impreza), and Toyota (RAV4). I have a few co-workers that seem to be die

Any recommendations for a small'ish AWD from the people more in the know here? I'm looking for something more dependable, it has to be AWD / 4WD since there's a lot of snow up in the NE. I also don't want a pickup or a giant SUV (anything mazda cx-7 style or smaller is fine). The main problem with the CX-7 for me is price; the AWD version is more pricey than I can afford unless I go used, so trying to keep this below $24k.

 

[Kelvrick]

Do you want full-time awd or part-time. Wanting full-time will limit your choices.

Correct me if I'm wrong, full-time will mean all 4 tires, all the time. Part-time is 2 tires and transfer of power when one of them loses grip.

 

[Juddog]

Do you want full-time awd or part-time. Wanting full-time will limit your choices.

Correct me if I'm wrong, full-time will mean all 4 tires, all the time. Part-time is 2 tires and transfer of power when one of them loses grip.

I didn't realize there were two types of AWD; I thought there was 4WD (which is all the time) and AWD (which adds power to the wheels that need it).

 

[Capt Caveman]

Subaru Forester
Nissan Rogue
Ford Escape/Edge
Chevy Equinox
Kia Sorento

 

[Throckmorton]

Part time means you're normally in 2WD mode and use a lever to select 4WD mode. On most vehicles the front and rear axles are locked together in 4WD, which is bad on the street and on ice. Only good offroad and on loose surfaces.

Full time means either power is split symmetrically, or 2WD and automatically sending power to the other axle when necessary.

 

[Kelvrick]

Part time means you're normally in 2WD mode and use a lever to select 4WD mode. On most vehicles the front and rear axles are locked together in 4WD, which is bad on the street and on ice. Only good offroad and on loose surfaces.

Full time means either power is split symmetrically, or 2WD and automatically sending power to the other axle when necessary.

I never know which terminology to use. Either way, there are two kinds of what is labeled AWD. Something that powers all 4 wheels all the time and some that run 2 and transfer as needed.

I think subaru and audi are all 4 all the time. Most of the others are the crappier kind (in my opinion). To even further complicate it, you have different versions within subaru as well, such as percentage of power split.

 

[mmntech]

Subaru Forester
Nissan Rogue
Ford Escape/Edge
Chevy Equinox
Kia Sorento

The Sorento's AWD seriously sucks. Handles poorly on snowy roads compared to most other AWD vehicles I've driven.

I'd go with the RAV4 or the Impreza.

 

[fbrdphreak]

I never know which terminology to use. Either way, there are two kinds of what is labeled AWD. Something that powers all 4 wheels all the time and some that run 2 and transfer as needed.

I think subaru and audi are all 4 all the time. Most of the others are the crappier kind (in my opinion). To even further complicate it, you have different versions within subaru as well, such as percentage of power split.

Subaru's AWD system drives all wheels at all time, but there are differences. All models but the STi have an open front differential. I think all NA models have an open rear diff as well, but I'm not entirely sure. Automatic transmissions drive 90% power to the front wheels until slip is detected. Manual transmissions drive power 50/50 F/R, except for the STi which has variable torque distribution.

EDIT: I almost forgot. Newer models have stability control (named VDC) which I think actuates the rear brakes.

Where's my cookie? :awe:

 

[Kelvrick]

Subaru's AWD system drives all wheels at all time, but there are differences. All models but the STi have an open front differential. I think all NA models have an open rear diff as well, but I'm not entirely sure. Automatic transmissions drive 90% power to the front wheels until slip is detected. Manual transmissions drive power 50/50 F/R, except for the STi which has variable torque distribution.

EDIT: I almost forgot. Newer models have stability control (named VDC) which I think actuates the rear brakes.

Where's my cookie? :awe:

Don't forget the number and kinds of lsd's you can have (viscous, torsen, front, middle, rear, etc)!

 

[ViviTheMage]

I never know which terminology to use. Either way, there are two kinds of what is labeled AWD. Something that powers all 4 wheels all the time and some that run 2 and transfer as needed.

I think subaru and audi are all 4 all the time. Most of the others are the crappier kind (in my opinion). To even further complicate it, you have different versions within subaru as well, such as percentage of power split.

AFAIK the QUATTRO in my Audi is AWD, not 4x4 ... ie it isn't like my jeeps 4x4 mode (4 tire spin same rate, even if slipping?)

The QUATTRO will reduce power to spinning tire, and apply it elsewhere? Maybe I am totally wrong ... Either way, I drive both, and both rock cock (05 Grand Cherokee 4x4 and 06 A4 AWD QUATTRO).

 

[Kelvrick]

AFAIK the QUATTRO in my Audi is AWD, not 4x4 ... ie it isn't like my jeeps 4x4 mode (4 tire spin same rate, even if slipping?)

The QUATTRO will reduce power to spinning tire, and apply it elsewhere? Maybe I am totally wrong ... Either way, I drive both, and both rock cock (05 Grand Cherokee 4x4 and 06 A4 AWD QUATTRO).

Oh Noes, now we're getting into the conversation regarding differences between awd and 4wd!

http://www.rubicon-trail.com/4WD101/4WD-AWD-autoAWD.html
http://www.rubicon-trail.com/4WD101/difference_4WD_awd.html

 

[ShawnD1]

I think subaru and audi are all 4 all the time. Most of the others are the crappier kind (in my opinion). To even further complicate it, you have different versions within subaru as well, such as percentage of power split.

Volkwagen's system is the same or similar to Audi, so there's that as well. In that youtube video about Subaru AWD that I post everywhere, the VW is the only car that comes even close to matching the Subaru. VW and Audi have excellent AWD systems.

AWD on the Honda CRV is hilariously bad. I saw a CRV stuck in some snow because he had bald tires, but him being stuck was able to show what Honda's system is all about. His front right and back right tires were spinning. Front left and back left were not spinning at all. Engineering fail right there. What good is AWD if both front and rear differentials are open? Many cars have this type of a system, and it's basically worthless.

What's ironic is that having a simple limited slip differential on just 2 driving wheels is orders of magnitude better than having AWD with open differentials.
Many of the older members of this forum probably owned a car with Positraction at some point and remember how well it worked. It was also a much simpler system with fewer moving parts. Few things to break or drain gas mileage. Subarus get horrendously bad gas mileage just because they have so many parts moving all the time.

 

[LTC8K6]

"Positraction" diffs are still very common and still widely available on many vehicles, under a few different names.

They haven't gone anywhere.

 

[Throckmorton]

BTW, the system that makes no sense is 2WD that sends power to the other axle when the main one slips. The reason it makes no sense is that it doesn't improve gas mileage over a symmetrical split. All the parts are always turning, it's just that in normal driving the dead axle and driveshaft are being turned indirectly by the road.

 

[Throckmorton]

Volkwagen's system is the same or similar to Audi, so there's that as well. In that youtube video about Subaru AWD that I post everywhere, the VW is the only car that comes even close to matching the Subaru. VW and Audi have excellent AWD systems.

AWD on the Honda CRV is hilariously bad. I saw a CRV stuck in some snow because he had bald tires, but him being stuck was able to show what Honda's system is all about. His front right and back right tires were spinning. Front left and back left were not spinning at all. Engineering fail right there. What good is AWD if both front and rear differentials are open? Many cars have this type of a system, and it's basically worthless.

What's ironic is that having a simple limited slip differential on just 2 driving wheels is orders of magnitude better than having AWD with open differentials.
Many of the older members of this forum probably owned a car with Positraction at some point and remember how well it worked. It was also a much simpler system with fewer moving parts. Few things to break or drain gas mileage. Subarus get horrendously bad gas mileage just because they have so many parts moving all the time.

It's not really useless just because the differentials are open. My Jeep has yet to get stuck, and it has 2 open diffs. Normally at least 3 tires have SOME traction, even offroad. The more your suspension can flex, and the grippier your tires, the less you need locking or limited slip diffs.


VW/Audi use Haldex FWD biased diffs. I think the front wheels are directly connected to the transmission, and the rear wheels only get a little power unless the front slips. So of course you get the weight, complexity, and worse gas mileage of AWD, but without the handling benefits.

 

[Elfear]

Oh Noes, now we're getting into the conversation regarding differences between awd and 4wd!

http://www.rubicon-trail.com/4WD101/4WD-AWD-autoAWD.html
http://www.rubicon-trail.com/4WD101/difference_4WD_awd.html

:thumbsup:

Great articles. I never knew how to articulate the difference until I read that.

 

[Arkaign]

I'm not sure if it's actually any good, but the somewhat homely looking Nissan Juke gets good fuel economy, respectable performance, and has AWD.

*shrug*

 

[ShawnD1]

"Positraction" diffs are still very common and still widely available on many vehicles, under a few different names.

They haven't gone anywhere.

Is there an easy way to tell which car has one? That's something I would love to have on my next car

As far as I can tell, it's mostly just found on "sporty" vehicles or SUVs. I would really like to see that on something economical

normal Honda Civic = open
Honda Civic Si = "helical limited slip differential" :thumbsup:
Honda Accord = open
Honda CRV = open
Toyota Corolla = open
Toyota Camry = open
Toyota Rav4 = "automatic limited slip differential" :thumbsup:
Toyota Matrix = open
Toyota Venza = open
Toyota FJ Cruiser = "rear differential lock"
Toyota Sequoia = "center differential lock, automatic limited slip rear differential, automatic disconnecting differential"

That's only two companies, but you get the idea. It's one of those things you really need to look for when looking at cheaper vehicles. IIRC, Nissan only has limited slip if you the SE-R model of Sentra or Altima. Outside of that, you're stuck with a $40,000 truck that burns lots of gas. Honda's gas guzzler truck probably doesn't even have it.

 

[ShawnD1]

It's not really useless just because the differentials are open. My Jeep has yet to get stuck, and it has 2 open diffs.

When is the last time it snowed in Hawaii? 😀

 

[Throckmorton]

When is the last time it snowed in Hawaii? 😀

That's a good point-- your odds are much higher of getting stuck if there's snow and ice on the ground every day.

I had a Grand Cherokee in Yellowstone though, and didn't get stuck in snow and ice, even offroad. It has 2 open diffs, and the transfercase has a clutch pack that normally sends power to the rear only and tightens the clutches when the rear slips. Tires are the most important part of the equation

 

[ShawnD1]

The tires are more important than normal people think but less important than ATG thinks. Winter acceleration in my car is definitely a lot better with winter tires, but my car still gets stuck very easily just because it needs both tires to have good traction before it can go.

After a regular snow fall, there will be a layer of snow on the roads. On high speed roads like highways and main roads, the fast moving vehicles blow the snow off the road because fast moving air follows the vehicles. On residential roads, it's never blown off to the side of the road and it never seems to pack down. As vehicles drive on it, the crystals break apart into smaller and smaller crystals. This broken snow has properties similar to sand. When vehicles drive on it, the vehicles sink down a few inches and the snow moves off to the side. Because of the way the snow is moving around the tires, it often forms high spots in the middle of the lane. If your slow down on this snow (because your god damn toyota traction control bullshit), the high center will grab your car and you'll be stuck.

So now you're stuck. How does the vehicle get out? If you have tires with deep treads (either winter tires or truck tires), you just turn on the 4WD and hope the sum of 4 wheels is enough to pull you out. If your car is like mine, you're left relying on whichever wheel has the worst traction. The car could be high centered and the left driving tire is on absolutely perfect grippy ground and the car won't move an inch because the other tire is still in that damn snow. With the traction control off, the one tires spins and nothing happens. With the traction control on, the car's braking system applies braking power to the slipping wheel, but not enough, so the car jiggles back and forth like it's trying to have sex with the snow. If the car had more driving wheels, either AWD or limited slip differential, the car might have enough grip to move.

It'll take more than 1 wheel drive to get out of this horseshit

This is what residential roads look like for many of us. Good luck to you all!

Just don't slow down and you'll be fine.

 

[jlee]

The tires are more important than normal people think but less important than ATG thinks. Winter acceleration in my car is definitely a lot better with winter tires, but my car still gets stuck very easily just because it needs both tires to have good traction before it can go.

After a regular snow fall, there will be a layer of snow on the roads. On high speed roads like highways and main roads, the fast moving vehicles blow the snow off the road because fast moving air follows the vehicles. On residential roads, it's never blown off to the side of the road and it never seems to pack down. As vehicles drive on it, the crystals break apart into smaller and smaller crystals. This broken snow has properties similar to sand. When vehicles drive on it, the vehicles sink down a few inches and the snow moves off to the side. Because of the way the snow is moving around the tires, it often forms high spots in the middle of the lane. If your slow down on this snow (because your god damn toyota traction control bullshit), the high center will grab your car and you'll be stuck.

So now you're stuck. How does the vehicle get out? If you have tires with deep treads (either winter tires or truck tires), you just turn on the 4WD and hope the sum of 4 wheels is enough to pull you out. If your car is like mine, you're left relying on whichever wheel has the worst traction. The car could be high centered and the left driving tire is on absolutely perfect grippy ground and the car won't move an inch because the other tire is still in that damn snow. With the traction control off, the one tires spins and nothing happens. With the traction control on, the car's braking system applies braking power to the slipping wheel, but not enough, so the car jiggles back and forth like it's trying to have sex with the snow. If the car had more driving wheels, either AWD or limited slip differential, the car might have enough grip to move.

It'll take more than 1 wheel drive to get out of this horseshit

This is what residential roads look like for many of us. Good luck to you all!

Just don't slow down and you'll be fine.

Until you need to stop.

 

[MotF Bane]

Dude, when the snow still on the street during the day is above the bumper of your car, it's not the fault of Toyota or FWD that you can't move.

 

[ShawnD1]

Until you need to stop.

lol, so true. One thing that seems to happen quite often is that the snow forms high spots in the middle of residential intersections. People who need to turn left there get stuck.

On the drive to work a few months ago, a car was stuck in the intersection by my house. At least 5 guys got out of their cars and pushed him through because he was blocking the entire intersection 😀

Dude, when the snow still on the street during the day is above the bumper of your car, it's not the fault of Toyota or FWD that you can't move.

Wrong you are. Any time my Corolla or Civic got stuck near my parents house, we would use the 4WD Xterra to get it out. Their Nissan Xterra has never once been stuck in snow. They don't even keep a shovel in it because it's never needed.

My brother drives a Subaru WRX and he pulls people out of the snow all the time. Full time AWD with winter tires is unstoppable.

 

[MotF Bane]

Wrong you are. Any time my Corolla or Civic got stuck near my parents house, we would use the 4WD Xterra to get it out. Their Nissan Xterra has never once been stuck in snow. They don't even keep a shovel in it because it's never needed.

/facepalm