What's missing from this Paul Ryan chart on the U.S. national debt?

[Dman8777]

The reason it happened sooner than expected was because of recession/unemployment. I forget what the exact date was but it was going to happen very soon anyway.

I thought back when Bush was pushing for privatizing SS the social security administration claimed SS would be solvent until 2047 or something like that...

 

[BoberFett]

Yeah it's called Healthcare for Profit....

Oh yeah, those huge healthcare profit margins...

So tell me, when you cut the cost of healthcare in this country in half, who is taking the paycut? Who is getting pink slips? That money has to come out of somebody's paycheck.

 

[Genx87]

Why lump the 3 together when you can see that the growth curve for Medicare is off the charts whereas the other two are pretty sustainable. Over-generalizing doesn't help the discussion.

If we're going to have a serious discussion about Medicare's sustainability, it starts with what is driving the curve. We all know what that is.

Because these three will be the largest non-discretionary items within our budget? It paints a grim picture of what these three programs will do to our budget. I only wish it added in interest on the debt and obamacare.

 

[Genx87]

Oh yeah, those huge healthcare profit margins...

So tell me, when you cut the cost of healthcare in this country in half, who is taking the paycut? Who is getting pink slips? That money has to come out of somebody's paycheck.

Dont confuse Ausm with reality. He prefers to remain ignorant and scream profit is the reason healthcare costs rise at double the rate of inflation.

 

[Ausm]

Oh yeah, those huge healthcare profit margins...

So tell me, when you cut the cost of healthcare in this country in half, who is taking the paycut? Who is getting pink slips? That money has to come out of somebody's paycheck.

You sure as hell wouldn't have to worry about a pink slip or money coming out of paycheck received from an honest week of work...so what's your point?

 

[Dulanic]

Oh yeah, those huge healthcare profit margins...

So tell me, when you cut the cost of healthcare in this country in half, who is taking the paycut? Who is getting pink slips? That money has to come out of somebody's paycheck.

So as long as it makes money for someone somewhere no matter the cost... do it right? Why the fuck should pretty much every american have to pay out their ass to overpay health care providers? Sorry, my sister is a ultrasound tech and even she knows she is overpaid compared to most professions out there with her education.

You know why and how she is overpaid? Hmmm let's see a ultrasound that takes 10 minutes of rubbing something with a wand costs over $1000. That's acceptable to you?

 

[Ausm]

Dont confuse Ausm with reality. He prefers to remain ignorant and scream profit is the reason healthcare costs rise at double the rate of inflation.

Ahh the forum RepubliTroll...I was missing you.

 

[Genx87]

So as long as it makes money for someone somewhere no matter the cost... do it right? Why the fuck should pretty much every american have to pay out their ass to overpay health care providers? Sorry, my sister is a ultrasound tech and even she knows she is overpaid compared to most professions out there with her education.

You know why and how she is overpaid? Hmmm let's see a ultrasound that takes 10 minutes of rubbing something with a wand costs over $1000. That's acceptable to you?

How would you fix that situation?

 

[Genx87]

Ahh the forum RepubliTroll...I was missing you.

Doesnt surprise me. Now explain to us how profits in the healthcare industry is why we are seeing the cost of healthcare rise faster than inflation?

 

[Craig234]

Its barely south of historical norms (maybe 1/2 a percent or so). The absolute most we have ever been able to sustain for more than a year or two is roughly 20% of gdp.

So yes, we can slightly increase revenue but that is a rather small part of the solution.

Perhaps total revenue, but we have shifted taxes from the very rich to others.

 

[BoberFett]

So as long as it makes money for someone somewhere no matter the cost... do it right? Why the fuck should pretty much every american have to pay out their ass to overpay health care providers? Sorry, my sister is a ultrasound tech and even she knows she is overpaid compared to most professions out there with her education.

You know why and how she is overpaid? Hmmm let's see a ultrasound that takes 10 minutes of rubbing something with a wand costs over $1000. That's acceptable to you?

OK, then tell me where to cut. Across the board paycuts for every healthcare worker in the US? Good luck with that campaign platform...

 

[Ausm]

Doesnt surprise me. Now explain to us how profits in the healthcare industry is why we are seeing the cost of healthcare rise faster than inflation?

What part don't you get?

 

[woolfe9999]

Because these three will be the largest non-discretionary items within our budget? It paints a grim picture of what these three programs will do to our budget. I only wish it added in interest on the debt and obamacare.

Yes but the other two programs are sustainable. They're on relatively flat growth curves. The distinction between Medicare on the one hand and SS and Medicaid on the other is huge from a long term fiscal standpoint. SS can be made sustainable with very little tweaking, perhaps less of a tweak than the increased retirement age that was implemented under Reagan. Medicare is a much more serious long term problem.

 

[Dman8777]

So as long as it makes money for someone somewhere no matter the cost... do it right? Why the fuck should pretty much every american have to pay out their ass to overpay health care providers? Sorry, my sister is a ultrasound tech and even she knows she is overpaid compared to most professions out there with her education.

You know why and how she is overpaid? Hmmm let's see a ultrasound that takes 10 minutes of rubbing something with a wand costs over $1000. That's acceptable to you?

Highly paid medical workers aren't the main problem though. Doctors in Europe make lots of money too. It's the layer of middle-men (insurers) in between the patient and provider who extract as much profit as they can. The glaring difference between the countries paying ~10% of GDP for healthcare and the US is the for-profit insurance system.

 

[Ausm]

Highly paid medical workers aren't the main problem though. It's the layer of middle-men (insurers) in between the patient and provider who extract as much profit as they can. The glaring difference between the countries paying ~10% of GDP for healthcare and the US is the for-profit insurance system.

You better duck because the Rabid Rightist in here seem to LOVE to pay out of their ass for Health insurance.

 

[xBiffx]

You better duck because the Rabid Rightist in here seem to LOVE to pay out of their ass for Health insurance.

Better crawl back into your hole because I don't see anyone advocating that. And I don't see anyone on the left trying to fix it either. All I see is something rammed through that just changes the proportion of insured, all the while doing nothing about the cost of healthcare. Honestly, if you were interested in controlling costs you stop with the party antics and actually go after what's costing us and not what's plucking your heart strings. There are plenty on the right, and the left, that want to control costs. Mandating insurance doesn't fix shit as far as broken healthcare and costs go.

 

[Genx87]

Yes but the other two programs are sustainable. They're on relatively flat growth curves. The distinction between Medicare on the one hand and SS and Medicaid on the other is huge from a long term fiscal standpoint. SS can be made sustainable with very little tweaking, perhaps less of a tweak than the increased retirement age that was implemented under Reagan. Medicare is a much more serious long term problem.

SS can be made sustainable yes. But in its current form it is already running a budget deficit that will require using the magic fund and have those bonds turned over at tax payers expense That will only gorw over the next 60 years. Now considering the last time it was even approached for tweaking everybody freaked the fuck out. I dont expect SS to be fixed unless they simply increase the payroll tax to pay for it. But even that isnt popular now as Obama wanted to lower the employee portion of the tax. And expecting people to work longer in life? That is unheard of in todays world!

I think the chart is fine. It is painting a picture of what to expect in the future from these three main non-discretionary programs. And I agree with you Medicare is worse than the other two by a long shot.

 

[Genx87]

What part don't you get?

You saying profit is the problem is not the same as you showing how it is the problem.

Show us why profits are why the cost of healthcare in growing at nearly double the rate of inflation.

 

[Dman8777]

Better crawl back into your whole because I don't see anyone advocating that. And I don't see anyone on the left trying to fix it either. All I see is something rammed through that just changes the proportion of insured, all the while doing nothing about the cost of healthcare. Honestly, if you were interested in controlling costs you stop with the party antics and actually go after what's costing us and not what's plucking your heart strings.

The insurance companies have sunken too much money into our politicans for that to ever happen. The health care initiative that got passed is consequently useless when it comes to cost control.

 

[Dulanic]

Highly paid medical workers aren't the main problem though. Doctors in Europe make lots of money too. It's the layer of middle-men (insurers) in between the patient and provider who extract as much profit as they can. The glaring difference between the countries paying ~10% of GDP for healthcare and the US is the for-profit insurance system.

Agreed, they aren't the main problem, they are only a portion. It is all portions combined that makes our system FUBAR.

 

[xBiffx]

The insurance companies have sunken too much money into our politicans for that to ever happen. The health care initiative that got passed is consequently useless when it comes to cost control.

I agree but people coming in and trying to play politics through social engineering is exacerbating the problem.

 

[woolfe9999]

SS can be made sustainable yes. But in its current form it is already running a budget deficit that will require using the magic fund and have those bonds turned over at tax payers expense That will only gorw over the next 60 years. Now considering the last time it was even approached for tweaking everybody freaked the fuck out. I dont expect SS to be fixed unless they simply increase the payroll tax to pay for it. But even that isnt popular now as Obama wanted to lower the employee portion of the tax. And expecting people to work longer in life? That is unheard of in todays world!

I think the chart is fine. It is painting a picture of what to expect in the future from these three main non-discretionary programs. And I agree with you Medicare is worse than the other two by a long shot.

The chart is fine, insofar as we understand that predicting that far into the future is fraught with many complications. I was critiquing your take on it. It shows a modest incline for SS until 2030, where after it flattens out. The incline is most likely due to the baby boomers retiring, whereas I assume it projects them to start dying off around 2030.

I agree that it is politically difficult to cut any of these programs but it has been done before, on more than one occasion. Increasing the SS tax is a possibility, just not during a recession. Obama's cut is meant as temporary stimulus, and it sunsets for that reason. Longer term, I think we're going to see means testing for these programs.

- wolf

 

[Dman8777]

Agreed, they aren't the main problem, they are only a portion. It is all portions combined that makes our system FUBAR.

The real problem is much more fundamental. Humans fear death and want to live longer. Modern medicine has come up with lots creative and often costly solutions to enable that and our government has generously offered to foot the bill.

At some point, hopefully in the near future, some hard decisions are going to have to be made. This is true for all western nations but it will happen sooner in the US because of our current healthcare structure.

 

[sandorski]

SS isn't "running a Deficit". It is merely beginning to call in its' IOUs.

 

[nonlnear]

You saying profit is the problem is not the same as you showing how it is the problem.

Show us why profits are why the cost of healthcare in growing at nearly double the rate of inflation.

Didn't you notice that prices of cars and electronics are increasing at double the rate of inflation too? It's the darn profits I tells ya!