Czar
What do you think bugs the Palestinians the most? the occupation, not Israel being there, its frustration built up from generations living in refugee camps, of being 2nd grade people.
I think the Arabs are accomplishing their goal.
I guess you are one of the very few that supports the oppression of millions of people.
No, but ask yourself why the Arabs have done nothing for the Palestinians these many years.
/britishexpats.com/
QUESTION: Why are there still refugees from 1948, still living in refugee camps generations after the original displacement? ANSWER: "The Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore, as an affront to the United Nations and as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders don't give a damn whether the refugees live or die."
- Ralph Galloway, former head of the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine
Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), in Amman, Jordan, August 1958
"In general, one can say that Arab governments regarded the destruction of the State of Israel as a more pressing matter than the welfare of the Palestinian refugees. Palestinian bitterness and anger had to be kept alive. It was clear that this could best be done by ensuring that a great many Palestinians Arabs continued to live under sub-normal conditions, the victims of hunger and poverty. No Arab Government preached this as a defined policy; most Arab Governments tacitly put it into practice."
- Terrence Prittie and Bernard Dineen, in "The Double Exodus: A Study of Arab and
Jewish Refugees in the Middle East"
The decision to sacrifice them [the Palestinian Arab refugees] to the cause of Israel's destruction was clearly enunciated in the aftermath of 1948-49 (keep them in camps so they can learn hate and seek revenge), and no action by Arab elites has
shown evidence of a change of heart.
- David S. Landes & Richard A. Landes, The New Republic, September 8, 1997
The Palestinians are the only refugees who cannot and must not be absorbed elsewhere; their fate is to be played up as the mirror image of the Wandering Jew.
- Jacques Givet, "The Anti-Zionist Complex"
In the 1967 Six Day War, under the threat of being "pushed into the sea" by Egypt, Syria and Jordan, Israel actually liberated the "occupied territory" of Jerusalem and granted free access to Jews, Christians and Moslems to worship at their respective holy sites. Israel also liberated the "West Bank" and Gaza. How easily recent history is forgotten. By comparison, Israel's administration, despite its faults, has been much more humane. The realities of the Jordanian and Egyptian occupation are conveyed in the following quote from HARSH REALITIES:
For 19 years, until 1967, Jordan brutally occupied the renamed "West Bank" with its 20 UNWRA refugee camps.... And when western Palestinians rioted in December '55, April '57, April '63, Nov. '66 and April '67, King Hussein sent in tanks which shelled city streets and machine gunned people at random, killing hundreds of men,women and children.
The Gaza Strip, as it was known for the 19 years of harsh Egyptian occupation, had 8 UNWRA refugee camps in which the Palestinians were forced to live in overcrowded squalor. Egypt refused to absorb any refugees; kept them stateless, denied passports, and forbade them to travel or work in Egypt. [On the other hand, Palestinians were permitted to work in Israel after 1967.]
For 19 years of brutal occupation of their fellow Arabs, Jordan and Egypt kept these areas in a deliberate state of economic stagnation and severe unemployment. Average unemployment in the early Sixties ran between 35-45%, and refugee unemployment hit a high of 83%. Yet during this entire period, the world was silent. Only after Israel's seizure of these territories in a defensive war in 1967, did anyone discover the "legitimate rights and national aspirations" of the Palestinian Arabs.
From a humanitarian viewpoint, their situation improved immeasurably under Israeli administration. Unemployment hovers around a mere 1% (1989) and per capita gross income tripled in less than 20 years; infant mortality rates dropped from the pre-1967 140 per 1,000 to only 30 per 1,000 today - at a time when the rest of the Arab world is still at 80 per 1,000; 7 Arab colleges and universities were established under Israel "occupation," where none existed before 1967. Yet it is Israel that is now being attacked.
Had the Arab countries any true intentions of helping their beleaguered brethren from western Palestine, they would and could have absorbed them easily 4 decades ago, as the Israelites did of an even greater number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands. The Palestinian Arabs share the same language, religion and culture, and for 70% of them, the same countries of origin just 3 generations before when their grandfathers emigrated for economic reasons to Palestine from surrounding Arab lands. But the 22 Arab countries, uninterested in aiding in Palestinian brothers, preferred to use them as a political weapon to wield against Israel, and the U.N. supported this heartless human manipulation.
In the mid-1970's Israel attempted to give the Palestinian Arab refugees in Gaza new and better housing. The U.N. General Assembly, at the urging of the Arab states, passed Resolution 32/90 condemning Israel for trying to relocate these refugees and demanded they be returned "to the camps in which they were removed." And yet, a senior U.N. official came to Gaza in January 1988 accompanied by 10 TV crews on a fact-finding visit and laid the entire blame for the situation at Israel's feet. As if the U.N.'s own complicity in the matter didn't exist! When the six Arab nations invaded Israel at Israel's birth, many claim 600,000 Arabs were displaced in that war. What is not well known is that approximately 800,000 Jews, who were living in those six Arab nations, had to flee for their lives because of Arab hatred. The solution to this refugee problem was simple - a fair exchange.
Israel, at a terrible economic cost, absorbed the 800,000 Jewish refugees But the Arab nations refused to accept these Arab refugees - their Arab brethren. Rather, they placed them in refugee camps, which became dark holes of hate and misery, models for propaganda to turn world opinion against Israel. They succeeded. How well they succeeded....
Refugee Camps When Israel inherited Judea and Samaria (the "West Bank") and Gaza in the 1967 War, Israel also inherited the Palestinian refugee camps that were administered by a United Nations agency. Israel wanted to negotiate both the refugee problem and a peace settlement, but the Arabs refused. One cannot help but agonize for the poor refugee pawns in this ploy. The deplorable condition of the Palestinian refugees is especially pitiful because the situation was designed and perpetuated by their own Arab brothers. No wonder the "intifada" erupted. Many claim the Arab nations refused to alleviate the refugee problem both in 1948 and in 1967.
Among many who have made this observation is Col. Richard Henry Meinertzhagen, a British Middle East expert. He asked a fellow dinner guest at the home of a British diplomat, "Why do not you Arabs, with all your resources from oil, do something for those wretched refugees from Palestine?" The Lebanese replied, "Good God, do you really think we are going to destroy the finest propaganda we possess? It's a gold mine!" When Meinertzhagen observed that this view was unkind and immoral, the Lebanese replied, "They are just human rubbish, but a political gold mine!" In slightly different language referring to the same attitude about the usefulness of Palestinian refugee camps, Meinertzhagen notes in his book, "I received identical views from other Arabs."
The Palestinians who have taken to the streets, spoiling for trouble, are the new generation-spawned in the refugee camps. From earliest childhood, they have been taught hate.
What do you think bugs the Palestinians the most? the occupation, not Israel being there, its frustration built up from generations living in refugee camps, of being 2nd grade people.
I think the Arabs are accomplishing their goal.
I guess you are one of the very few that supports the oppression of millions of people.
No, but ask yourself why the Arabs have done nothing for the Palestinians these many years.
/britishexpats.com/
QUESTION: Why are there still refugees from 1948, still living in refugee camps generations after the original displacement? ANSWER: "The Arab states do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore, as an affront to the United Nations and as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders don't give a damn whether the refugees live or die."
- Ralph Galloway, former head of the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine
Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), in Amman, Jordan, August 1958
"In general, one can say that Arab governments regarded the destruction of the State of Israel as a more pressing matter than the welfare of the Palestinian refugees. Palestinian bitterness and anger had to be kept alive. It was clear that this could best be done by ensuring that a great many Palestinians Arabs continued to live under sub-normal conditions, the victims of hunger and poverty. No Arab Government preached this as a defined policy; most Arab Governments tacitly put it into practice."
- Terrence Prittie and Bernard Dineen, in "The Double Exodus: A Study of Arab and
Jewish Refugees in the Middle East"
The decision to sacrifice them [the Palestinian Arab refugees] to the cause of Israel's destruction was clearly enunciated in the aftermath of 1948-49 (keep them in camps so they can learn hate and seek revenge), and no action by Arab elites has
shown evidence of a change of heart.
- David S. Landes & Richard A. Landes, The New Republic, September 8, 1997
The Palestinians are the only refugees who cannot and must not be absorbed elsewhere; their fate is to be played up as the mirror image of the Wandering Jew.
- Jacques Givet, "The Anti-Zionist Complex"
In the 1967 Six Day War, under the threat of being "pushed into the sea" by Egypt, Syria and Jordan, Israel actually liberated the "occupied territory" of Jerusalem and granted free access to Jews, Christians and Moslems to worship at their respective holy sites. Israel also liberated the "West Bank" and Gaza. How easily recent history is forgotten. By comparison, Israel's administration, despite its faults, has been much more humane. The realities of the Jordanian and Egyptian occupation are conveyed in the following quote from HARSH REALITIES:
For 19 years, until 1967, Jordan brutally occupied the renamed "West Bank" with its 20 UNWRA refugee camps.... And when western Palestinians rioted in December '55, April '57, April '63, Nov. '66 and April '67, King Hussein sent in tanks which shelled city streets and machine gunned people at random, killing hundreds of men,women and children.
The Gaza Strip, as it was known for the 19 years of harsh Egyptian occupation, had 8 UNWRA refugee camps in which the Palestinians were forced to live in overcrowded squalor. Egypt refused to absorb any refugees; kept them stateless, denied passports, and forbade them to travel or work in Egypt. [On the other hand, Palestinians were permitted to work in Israel after 1967.]
For 19 years of brutal occupation of their fellow Arabs, Jordan and Egypt kept these areas in a deliberate state of economic stagnation and severe unemployment. Average unemployment in the early Sixties ran between 35-45%, and refugee unemployment hit a high of 83%. Yet during this entire period, the world was silent. Only after Israel's seizure of these territories in a defensive war in 1967, did anyone discover the "legitimate rights and national aspirations" of the Palestinian Arabs.
From a humanitarian viewpoint, their situation improved immeasurably under Israeli administration. Unemployment hovers around a mere 1% (1989) and per capita gross income tripled in less than 20 years; infant mortality rates dropped from the pre-1967 140 per 1,000 to only 30 per 1,000 today - at a time when the rest of the Arab world is still at 80 per 1,000; 7 Arab colleges and universities were established under Israel "occupation," where none existed before 1967. Yet it is Israel that is now being attacked.
Had the Arab countries any true intentions of helping their beleaguered brethren from western Palestine, they would and could have absorbed them easily 4 decades ago, as the Israelites did of an even greater number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands. The Palestinian Arabs share the same language, religion and culture, and for 70% of them, the same countries of origin just 3 generations before when their grandfathers emigrated for economic reasons to Palestine from surrounding Arab lands. But the 22 Arab countries, uninterested in aiding in Palestinian brothers, preferred to use them as a political weapon to wield against Israel, and the U.N. supported this heartless human manipulation.
In the mid-1970's Israel attempted to give the Palestinian Arab refugees in Gaza new and better housing. The U.N. General Assembly, at the urging of the Arab states, passed Resolution 32/90 condemning Israel for trying to relocate these refugees and demanded they be returned "to the camps in which they were removed." And yet, a senior U.N. official came to Gaza in January 1988 accompanied by 10 TV crews on a fact-finding visit and laid the entire blame for the situation at Israel's feet. As if the U.N.'s own complicity in the matter didn't exist! When the six Arab nations invaded Israel at Israel's birth, many claim 600,000 Arabs were displaced in that war. What is not well known is that approximately 800,000 Jews, who were living in those six Arab nations, had to flee for their lives because of Arab hatred. The solution to this refugee problem was simple - a fair exchange.
Israel, at a terrible economic cost, absorbed the 800,000 Jewish refugees But the Arab nations refused to accept these Arab refugees - their Arab brethren. Rather, they placed them in refugee camps, which became dark holes of hate and misery, models for propaganda to turn world opinion against Israel. They succeeded. How well they succeeded....
Refugee Camps When Israel inherited Judea and Samaria (the "West Bank") and Gaza in the 1967 War, Israel also inherited the Palestinian refugee camps that were administered by a United Nations agency. Israel wanted to negotiate both the refugee problem and a peace settlement, but the Arabs refused. One cannot help but agonize for the poor refugee pawns in this ploy. The deplorable condition of the Palestinian refugees is especially pitiful because the situation was designed and perpetuated by their own Arab brothers. No wonder the "intifada" erupted. Many claim the Arab nations refused to alleviate the refugee problem both in 1948 and in 1967.
Among many who have made this observation is Col. Richard Henry Meinertzhagen, a British Middle East expert. He asked a fellow dinner guest at the home of a British diplomat, "Why do not you Arabs, with all your resources from oil, do something for those wretched refugees from Palestine?" The Lebanese replied, "Good God, do you really think we are going to destroy the finest propaganda we possess? It's a gold mine!" When Meinertzhagen observed that this view was unkind and immoral, the Lebanese replied, "They are just human rubbish, but a political gold mine!" In slightly different language referring to the same attitude about the usefulness of Palestinian refugee camps, Meinertzhagen notes in his book, "I received identical views from other Arabs."
The Palestinians who have taken to the streets, spoiling for trouble, are the new generation-spawned in the refugee camps. From earliest childhood, they have been taught hate.
Random Variable
Lifer
- Aug 10, 2001
- 10,420
- 2
- 0
<< The Land originaly agreed to when Israel was formed. >>
Israel offered to return to the '67 borders at Camp David 18 months ago, and the Palestinians responded by declaring an intifada. Why should Israel believe that peace would result if they made the same offer again?
<<
<< The Land originaly agreed to when Israel was formed. >>
Israel offered to return to the '67 borders at Camp David 18 months ago, and the Palestinians responded by declaring an intifada. Why should Israel believe that peace would result if they made the same offer again? >>
And now they are offering this to both sides now and the Israelis are refusing. Or more like Sharon and his party are refusing while everyone else wants it.
BoberFett
Lifer
- Oct 9, 1999
- 37,562
- 9
- 81
<< well said Heifetz >>
No it wasn't.
<< I really hope the Israeli government change their policy of attack against the Palestinians for the safety of their own people, otherwise, I see no end to this bloody massacre. >>
There's nothing Israel can do to stop the terrorists. They could withdraw from all land not originally set aside for Israel, and build a 20 foot wall. Palestine is the world Muslim excuse for causing mayhem. They have no intention of stopping the violence. Ever.
<< I second the question: What are they calling "Palestinian lands"? >>
http://www.mideastweb.org/mpalestine.htm
<<
<< well said Heifetz >>
No it wasn't. >>
Yes it was.
<< There's nothing Israel can do to stop the terrorists. They could withdraw from all land not originally set aside for Israel, and build a 20 foot wall. Palestine is the world Muslim excuse for causing mayhem. They have no intention of stopping the violence. Ever. >>
We dont know that, the only thing we do know is that increased violance on the behalf of Israel will only increase the violence on behalf of Palestine and visa versa.
22 countries in the middle east are now threatining to take action if the Israelis dont widthraw from those Palestinian lands.
<< There's nothing Israel can do to stop the terrorists. They could withdraw from all land not originally set aside for Israel, and build a 20 foot wall. Palestine is the world Muslim excuse for causing mayhem. They have no intention of stopping the violence. Ever. >>
Do you think Israeli will make Palestinians submit to their demands if they carry out further attacks against refugee camps? its obvious that further attacks will only incite more attacks. It will give the Palestinian terrorist groups only more fuel and support in carrying out their attacks. Each member of the Israeli government need to study Ghandi and his non-violence methods against British occupation, for that matter, both sides need to do the same. Is the Israeli stop carrying out attacks rationlizing them in the name of justice, the world will look down and deter against future terrorist attacks against them. At this moment, I think there is little sympathy for the Israels, as represented by W Bush's recent speech. I certainly have no sympathy for the Israelis.
Heifetz
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
- 50,879
- 4,268
- 126
<Dons Helm of Precognizance +2>
I predict in 6 months we will have the identical people posting identical opinions about virtually identical circumstances. It's all great fun blaming the "other guy". People are dying and are going to continue to die in increasing numbers. Why? Because each side hates the other so much, that killing for killing sake is all that matters at this point. Someone will pontificate about how bad the Israelis or Palestinians are, but killing children, and worse, having children kill is indicative of madness. Screw borders!! That is an excuse. One side will propose something, and BOTH sides will make sure nothing significant happens. Wait and see.
I predict in 6 months we will have the identical people posting identical opinions about virtually identical circumstances. It's all great fun blaming the "other guy". People are dying and are going to continue to die in increasing numbers. Why? Because each side hates the other so much, that killing for killing sake is all that matters at this point. Someone will pontificate about how bad the Israelis or Palestinians are, but killing children, and worse, having children kill is indicative of madness. Screw borders!! That is an excuse. One side will propose something, and BOTH sides will make sure nothing significant happens. Wait and see.
all of this idiocy could have been stopped a long time ago. it seems clear that over the years it has been the israelis, with some exception, that have been striving for peace up until recently. the arabs have never wanted peace except when looking down the barrel of a loaded gun and that's what the israelis are doing now. this is what they have learned from decades of hostility with the arab world.
I usually don't get into these Israel/Palestinian threads because I don't think I know enough about it but, it seems to me that the first thing that needs to happen is that someone needs to emerge who represents all the Palestinians. It certainly isn't Arafat. He doesn't even appear to be able to run a security meeting w/o getting threatened at gunpoint by one of his own people.
ThePresence
Elite Member
- Nov 19, 2001
- 27,727
- 16
- 81
Czar and Heifetz> Why do you talk about something you are so far removed from? U sit in America, Canada or wherever the hell you guys live, and try to form an opinion on something thats going on on the other side of the globe. You speak as if you actually understand whats happening there. You guys are so clueless. I lived in Jerusalem for three years. I was in the Israeli army too. If you would only understand the passion the Israelis have for peace, you would sing a totally different tune. Everyone is sick of the violence. Do you really thing Israelis wake up in the morning looking for palestinians to kill? The reason Palestinians children are getting killed, is because their parents bring them to firefights. They hide behind their children, figuring that no one will shoot them, while they themselves fire over their childrens shoulders. I've seen this with my own eyes. You cant argue with this. I've seen it, while you sit in you chair on the other side of the ocean. They figure, the worst thing that can happen is that their child gets hit and world opinion turns against the Israelis. Another thing you folks should realize, is that this conflict is NOT about religion. Sure, the Palestinians are religious, and the Jews are religious (some of them at least). For the Palestinians, its about land. Thats it. land = money, money = power. For the Israelis its about trying to live like a human being without the fear of being blown up while you walk your dog. And in response to that terrible pic, let me link you to this (caution: very graphic content) and this (some prespective on how the media reports about the conflict).
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 22K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
News NVIDIA and Intel to Develop AI Infrastructure and Personal Computing Products- Started by poke01
- Replies: 403
-
Facebook
Twitter