Whatever you think about NASCAR..

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Bartman39

Elite Member | For Sale/Trade
Jul 4, 2000
8,867
51
91
What do the flaps do? I always see them deployed, but had no idea what they were for.

They release air that gets trapped and causes the car to lift (in theory)... Doesnt always work but has been proven to reduce the effect... They are both on the roof and hood (engine compartment area) which also catches alot of air... The car kinda acts like a drag chute without these flaps if turned around backwards or vaulted up in a crash situation... Dont remember but think they also have some in the trunk lid area now as well...? The COT design while bland and all look alike are alot safer than the older cars...
 
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Skurge

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2009
5,195
1
71
They release air that gets trapped and causes the car to lift (in theory)... Doesnt always work but has been proven to reduce the effect... They are both on the roof and hood (engine compartment area) which also catches alot of air... The car kinda acts like a drag chute without these flaps if turned around backwards or vaulted up in a crash situation... Dont remember but think they also have some in the trunk lid area now as well...? The COT design while bland and all look alike are alot safer than the older cars...

Thanks.

The FIA have added a "fin" on LMP cars this year to prevent cars flipping as well.
 

Pariah

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2000
7,357
20
81
They release air that gets trapped and causes the car to lift (in theory)... Doesnt always work but has been proven to reduce the effect... They are both on the roof and hood (engine compartment area) which also catches alot of air... The car kinda acts like a drag chute without these flaps if turned around backwards or vaulted up in a crash situation... Dont remember but think they also have some in the trunk lid area now as well...? The COT design while bland and all look alike are alot safer than the older cars...

Actually, they work exactly the opposite of what you described. Obviously the car is not designed aerodynamically to travel in reverse at high speeds, so when it does, the car acts like a wing and tries to take off. When it does this, it's partially because the lowest air pressure area is at the back of the roof. When the roof flap opens, it catches air creating a high pressure area in front of the flap which hopefully will keep the back of the car on the ground. With the tires sliding on the ground, friction will slow the car down more quickly eliminating the conditions necessary to get the car airborne.
 

Pacfanweb

Lifer
Jan 2, 2000
13,158
59
91
Im not sure how you can say driver skill matters a lot more in nascar when the cars are the same and you can't gain much from each corner. It looks like there is less chance for a good driver to prove himself.

Then why do the same drivers keep winning all the races? Dale Earnhardt Jr. has proven beyond all doubt that the equipment isn't what makes the difference....he has the best of the best with Hendrick Racing. His teammate has won the Cup 5 years straight and Jr. can't even finish in the top-10 with the exact same equipment.

Answer: Because you're wrong, driver skill DOES matter, and you CAN gain from cornering, that's just a foolish and uninformed statement.
 

alexruiz

Platinum Member
Sep 21, 2001
2,836
556
126
I sometimes watch nascar and enjoy the races, but comparing it to formula 1 is ridiculous.

So you tell me that flying a piston engine plane is harder than a Su27/F15 because there is less technology and then the pilot is a bigger factor? :p
Technology in F1 cars has always been to make them go faster and safer, not easier, same as a modern fighter jet.

While nascar is much more "spec" racing, there are still huge differences between teams. From crew, to crew chief to adjustments to engines. If driving skill is the only factor that makes a difference, are you telling me that Jimmie is the only good driver and the others are a bunch a chimps? 5 championships straight!! Schumacher did the same in Formula 1, but the Ferrari of those times was so clearly better it was expected. You have to admit that likely Jimmie's car overall (team) is so much better...

For the car swap of Montoya and Gordon is 2003, you are forgetting a few important details:

The event "tradin paint" was conceived by BMW as publicity of their motorsport involvement. It was scheduled prior to the 2003 US Grand Prix (Indianapolis). BMW was the engine supplier to the Williams F1 team. The Williams drivers were Juan Pablo Montoya and Ralph Schumacher (Schumi Jr, brother of Michael). BMW picked JPM as the driver for the event as Montoya had more ties with the USA (former CART champion) Each driver would drive his own car in a reference lap, then they would swap cars..."trade paint" The USGP is a road course obviously, taking parts of the brickyard oval and a custom made road track in the infield. The reference laps were quite mild by both drivers, as the times by the other were very close to each other. Now, disecting the facts:

Jeff ran a few laps only, but had a heck of a time with the G forces. He was unable to get the HANNS device for proper comfort in the first laps. Even after he did, he was still having a rough time. He only lapped like 15 practice laps, but he was exhausted after the stint. The time run by Jeff in the #24 Dupont was something like 1'37", and JPM's time in the same car was like one second off. The time that JPM ran in the Williams-BMW was like 1'16", and Jeff's time in the same car was also like 1 sec off. Sound impressive by both drivers.... is it really?

The time by Jeff, while very respectable, was 2 seconds off the qualifying time of the slowest car in the grid for the USGP, meaning he would start the race dead last... still sounds impressive for a first timer. But the slowest car in the grid was a Minardi, not a Williams-BMW. Hence, his time has to be compared to the Williams-BMWs. The qualifying times for the race by JPM and RS were slighty lower than 1'12", meaning Jeff's time was almost 5 seconds off! Furthermore, if you are familiar with F1, you already know that qualifying times are slower than race pace, as the amount of fuel on board for the start of the race is the fuel remaining after qualifying (2003 circa, cars get impounded after qualifying) So the cars are heavier at qualifying. Race pace by both Williams-BMWs was in the low 1'10"... I would bet for the exhibition event the fuel load was very low, so times could be even lower and now that makes Jeff's time over 6 second off! We are talking well over 5%. And no, the issue is not talent, Jeff had plenty of talent to drive as fast as Juan Pablo. What no nascar driver has to run competitively in Formula 1 is fitness.


Montoya is probably the most naturally talented driver in the world, but raw talent doesn't make you the best. Execution does. As talented as he is, he is not championship material. He was in contention for the F1 2003 championship, as high as second at some point. What did he do? crash! The last race of the season he was still 10 points behind, mathematically possible... result? DNF! his DNF also cost Williams-BMW the constructors championship. Compare that to the execution of Kimi (9 pts behind Schumi) in that last race. Kimi did what he had to do, press as hard, and had not been for Ruben's (Barrichello) stealing the win Kimi would have won the championship.

Montoya has been closer to win the championship in nascar than he was in formula 1. In 2009 he ended 5th in the final standings, and 4 races into the chase he was 3rd. He ended 5th running in a mediocre car with a mediocre team. In formula 1 his best standing was 3rd in 2003 driving the 2nd fastest car (2003), and 3rd also in 2005 driving the fastest car...

Oh, and just to close the deal, if you are the very best of the best, you want to get rewarded for that driving. More often than not, money gets you the very best. Would you pick the $4 million a season contract, or the $60 million a season contract. The drivers that can command the ridiculous salaries of >$40 mill a season just for driving are surely the best.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
All of your analysis of Gordon's times compared to race weekend times are worthless. The track is not in the same condition, the car isn't prepped with months of preseason testing to suit him, and he isn't going to chance a shunt.

Here'sa an opinion for you about driver skill. Most of the time it takes less driver skill to win an F1 race than it does to win a NASCAR race, because of the much greater number of drivers with a chance to win. And the fact that road courses are much easier to maintain position, even with slower lap times, than oval courses.

Not saying NASCAR drivers are better, just that they have to use their talent more to win.

Montoya never had any chance of winning the NASCAR Championship, and he did have a shot in F1. So it just isn't accurate to say he was closer to winning the NASCAR championship.

For a better comparison of F1 and NASCAR look at the one driver who excelled in both, Mario Andretti. He also excelled at Indy and dirt oval racing, btw.
 

Bartman39

Elite Member | For Sale/Trade
Jul 4, 2000
8,867
51
91
Actually, they work exactly the opposite of what you described. Obviously the car is not designed aerodynamically to travel in reverse at high speeds, so when it does, the car acts like a wing and tries to take off. When it does this, it's partially because the lowest air pressure area is at the back of the roof. When the roof flap opens, it catches air creating a high pressure area in front of the flap which hopefully will keep the back of the car on the ground. With the tires sliding on the ground, friction will slow the car down more quickly eliminating the conditions necessary to get the car airborne.

Yep your correct... I was going off what had been said way back in 1994 when they were introduced... Thats how it was explained back then but I did a little more digging and found it is to distrupt the air flow over the car as soon as it gets turned 140 degree`s, also thats why the ones on the roof are on different angles... thanks Pariah...:thumbsup: