What you probably didn't hear about in Iraq

[fbrdphreak]

Originally posted by: BBond
Because I won't sit by idly while a bunch of a$$holes fvck up my country.

And you insulting people on an internet forum is helping how?

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: BBond
The world must view us as a truly sick nation after Abu Ghraib and all the other atrocities we've committed in Iraq and elsewhere.

Sadly, very sadly, they do.
Britons see US as vulgar empire builder

Britons have never had such a low opinion of the leadership of the United States, a YouGov poll shows.

As Americans prepare to celebrate the 230th anniversary of their independence tomorrow, the poll found that only 12 per cent of Britons trust them to act wisely on the global stage. This is half the number who had faith in the Vietnam-scarred White House of 1975.
...........
More than two-thirds who offered an opinion said America is essentially an imperial power seeking world domination. And 81 per cent of those who took a view said President George W Bush hypocritically championed democracy as a cover for the pursuit of American self-interests.

This is from perhaps our closest ally in the world and a partner in Iraq! Imagine the feeling amongst the rest of the world. 🙁

Originally posted by: ss284

Originally posted by: BBond
blah blah blah

If you are so upset why dont you just GTFO and move up to Canada like all the other America haters?

You silly child. And I bet you think you're being a patriot by saying that?
Here, why don't read some wise words about what it means to be a patriot:

?Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.?
~ Thomas Jefferson

?I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually.?
~ James Baldwin

?'My country, right or wrong' is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying 'My mother, drunk or sober.'?
~ G. K. Chesterton

?Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us.?
~ William O. Douglas

?When a whole nation is roaring Patriotism at the top of its voice, I am fain to explore the cleanness of its hands and the purity of its heart.?
~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

?Patriotism is proud of a country's virtues and eager to correct its deficiencies; it also acknowledges the legitimate patriotism of other countries, with their own specific virtues. The pride of nationalism, however, trumpets its country's virtues and denies its deficiencies, while it is contemptuous toward the virtues of other countries. It wants to be, and proclaims itself to be, 'the greatest,' but greatness is not required of a country; only goodness is.?
~ Sydney J. Harris

?Patriotism does not oblige us to acquiesce in the destruction of liberty. Patriotism obliges us to question it, at least.?
~ Wendy Kaminer

?The highest patriotism is not a blind acceptance of official policy, but a love of one's country deep enough to call her to a higher plain.?
~ George McGovern

?The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naïve and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.?
~ H. L. Mencken

?We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal opposition dies, I think the soul of America dies with it.?
~ Edward R. Murrow

?If patriotism is 'the last refuge of a scoundrel,' it is not merely because evil deeds may be performed in the name of patriotism, but because patriotic fervor can obliterate moral distinctions altogether.?
~ Ralph B. Perry

?The peace and welfare of this and coming generations of Americans will be secure only as we cling to the watchword of true patriotism: 'Our country ? when right to be kept right; when wrong to be put right.'?
~ Carl Schurz

?To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.?
~ Theodore Roosevelt

?Patriotism means unqualified and unwavering love for the nation, which implies not uncritical eagerness to serve, not support for unjust claims, but frank assessment of its vices and sins, and penitence for them.?
~ Alexander Solzhenitsyn

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: cwjerome
Best post ever Moonbeam.

In many ways the Army is like any other huge organization and will reflect the general population's shadier element. But soldiers also go through completely unnatural situations and conditions and the results can be unsettling. Overall, I think the Army does a stand-up job trying to prevent and deal with horrible occurances like this... much better than even a decade or two ago. Let's hope they never stop improving.

Whoever's guilty of these things should get the maximum punishment... and then some.

Thank you but I am not sure why you call my post good when we seem to disagree, at least with respect to punishment. The Iraqis will be screaming for blood as well as some on the American right and the left while many military folk will want to give them a total pass. No matter which way the Military moves, weren't these guys actually Marines, somebody will be pisses which means that political pressures arise seeking to influence the sentence. Do you really think a maximum sentences is fair to folk who serve our country in a living hell were we have trained them to kill? Are you really sure you yourself could never crack under the strain? And if we give them a pass what message will that send. I know I would not want to judge this case, but I hope those who do can do it with compassion and understanding and wisdom and these men aren't treated like pawns for some ideological view. I hope too that what we see in the final outcome is some real struggle to find common ground. We aren't perfect but it sends a good message when we try. People may differ on their opinions of the outcome, but they may respect it if they can see an attempt was made to be fair. For that reason I can't see the 'maximum punishment and then some' as falling within that range. We sent them there on our behalf and some of the blame surly falls on us.

It doesn't matter if our troops see their battlebuddies die, or if their ethical framework has been altered about killing, or they have to live in the stress of war day after day.

That is part of being a professional soldier who lives the 7 army values and goes through training to kill the enemy effectively while maintaining his head and military bearing. Am I saying it's easy? Of course not, but it is expected and nearly everyone I know in the army would say the same thing. Whatever sympathy we may have (and there is some) is washed out by the cold facts and sheer immorality of the acts in question.

Yes, it's todays' standard practice to find a host of "problems" (especially psychological) to use as excuses. But that's all they really are: excuses. Based on what I've heard about this case, the soldiers acted completely opposite of everything that they should have been taught to do, and I fully expect the military to throw the book at the guilty.