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What you probably didn't hear about in Iraq

dchakrab

Senior member


Link to newspaper article

"A group of American soldiers in an insurgent-riddled town allegedly noticed a young Iraqi woman when on patrol and later returned to rape her, according to U.S. officials Friday. In an apparent cover-up attempt, she and three members of her family then were killed and her body was set on fire."

No point yelling about the media that goes nuts talking about the troops who were beheaded (same platoon) and how outraged we should be, but forgets to mention that immediately afterwards it became known that those troops appear to have gang raped a girl and then killed her and her family to cover it up (including a child). Mitigating circumstances, at the very least. Sure, we can't condone what was done by either side in this, but it's interesting what makes national headlines and what gets buried on a regular basis.

More importantly, I'd ask that anyone who thinks we somehow have the right (or obligation) to enter Iraq and fight for freedom / democracy / etc for them think about this: even though I might be willing to accept that, in theory, one nation may have such obligations to another, I believe that the US is not and can never be that nation because of our abysmal history of acting in this manner. We're not the saviors of the world, and we can't be, because we do things like this in the name of saving these people.

Whatever happened to that woman under a previous dictator, her friends and neighbors will remember that Americans did this to her and to her family. And we might justify it by saying well, it happened a lot more before and things are better for the Iraqis now, but that's just a safety blanket to keep you from facing what was done in your name.

I keep reading "If you can read this in English, thank a veteran". But I keep thinking, "If you're blown up while reading this, thank the current military" ...I think most of our proud veterans from earlier years would be shocked and ashamed of the army we're fielding now. It's one thing to fight for freedom, but this? This is just terrorism (yeah, I said it). Trying to justify this as the lesser of two evils doesn't change how evil this is, or that it was done in our name as Americans, or that it will be covered up in our rush to talk about how we're freeing Iraq.

Dave.
 
Here's the story as it appeared in my morning newspaper. But, as you say, since most people don't read newspapers any more (preferring to get their propaganda directly from the White House) they most likely won't hear about this latest atrocity in Iraq, ALL COURTESY OF bush AND HIS ADMINISTRATION OF LIARS.

I keep hearing our military in Iraq are "the best of us" but then I read about the military lowering standards just to get bodies to fill uniforms. How can "the best of us" be comprised of those who meet the lowest standards? How can "the best of us" conduct themselves in such fashion? Atrocity after atrocity in a war that should NEVER have been fought, started by a group of liars who can only be described as "THE WORST OF US"?

U.S. probes allegations 5 soldiers raped Iraqi woman, killed her family

Saturday, July 01, 2006
BY RYAN LENZ
ASSOCIATED PRESS

BEIJI, Iraq -- A group of American soldiers in an insurgent-riddled town allegedly noticed a young Iraqi woman when on patrol and later returned to rape her, according to U.S. officials yesterday. In an apparent cover-up attempt, she and three members of her family then were killed and her body was set on fire.

Five U.S. troops are being investigated, a U.S. military official told the Associated Press. It is the fifth pending case involving alleged slayings of Iraqi civilians by U.S. troops.

The suspects in the killing, which took place in March, were from the same platoon as two soldiers kidnapped and killed south of Baghdad this month, said the official, who is close to the investigation and spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the case.

One soldier was arrested after admitting his role in the alleged attack on the family, the U.S. official said. The official said the rape and killings appear to have been a "crime of opportunity," noting that the soldiers had not been attacked by insurgents but had no ticed the woman on previous patrols.

One of the family members they allegedly killed was a child, said a senior Army official who also requested anonymity because the investigation is ongoing. Some of the suspects allegedly burned the woman's body to cover up the attack, the U.S. official said.

In Baghdad, the U.S. military issued a sparse statement, saying only that Maj. Gen. James D. Thurman, commander of the 4th Infantry Division, ordered a criminal investigation into the alleged slaying of a family of four in Mahmoudiya, 20 miles south of Baghdad.

However, the U.S. official said the soldiers were assigned to the 502nd Infantry Regiment. The official told the AP that the sus pects were from the same platoon as two slain soldiers whose mutilated bodies were found June 19, three days after they were abducted by insurgents near Youssifiyah southwest of Baghdad.

The military has said one and possibly both of the slain soldiers were tortured and beheaded. The official said the mutilation of the slain soldiers stirred feelings of guilt and led at least one member of the platoon to reveal the rape-slaying on June 22.

According to the senior Army official, the al leged incident was first revealed by a soldier during a routine counseling-type session. The official said that soldier did not witness the incident but heard about it.

A second soldier, who also was not involved, said he overheard soldiers conspir ing to commit the crimes and then later saw bloodstains on their clothes, the official said.

Before the soldier disclosed the alleged as sault, senior officers had been aware of the family's death but believed it was a result of sectarian violence, the official said.

One of the five suspects has already been discharged for unspecified charges unre lated to the killings and is believed to be in the United States, two U.S. officials said on condition of anonymity because the investigation is ongoing. The others have had their weapons taken away and are confined to a U.S. base near Mahmoudiya.

The allegations of rape could generate a particularly strong backlash in Iraq, a conservative, strongly religious society in which many women will not even shake hands with men who are not close relatives.

The case is among the most serious against U.S. soldiers allegedly involved in the deaths of Iraqi civilians. At least 14 U.S. troops have been convicted.

Last week, seven Marines and one Navy medic were charged with premeditated murder in the shooting death of an Iraqi man near Fallujah west of Baghdad.

U.S. officials also are investigating allega tions that U.S. Marines killed two dozen unarmed Iraqi civilians Nov. 19 in the western town of Haditha in a revenge attack after a fellow Marine died in a roadside bombing.

Other cases involve the deaths of three male detainees in Salahuddin province in May, the shooting death of an unarmed Iraqi man near Ramadi in February, and the death of an Iraqi soldier after an interrogation in 2003 at a detention camp in Qaim.

The allegations have aroused public anger against the U.S. military presence at a time when the new Iraqi government and U.S. authorities are trying to reach out to disaf fected Sunni Arabs to quell the insurgency and calm sectarian tensions.

Today, Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki leaves for a whirlwind trip to Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates to seek support for his national reconciliation initiative, which includes an amnesty for the mostly Sunni insurgents.

Despite Maliki's efforts, there has been no letup in Iraq's violence. The U.S. military reported four more American service members have died -- including a Marine killed yesterday in fighting west of Baghdad. Three Army soldiers died in combat the day be fore, the military said.

This, along with the other atrocities reported as well as the daily American instigated atrocities in Iraq that we never hear about, are why I keep saying that george w. bush did the same thing to Iraq that Osama bin Laden did to America on 9/11. Only Iraq's "9/11" has been going on, non-stop, for over THREE YEARS NOW WITH NO END IN SIGHT.

And all for a lie told by a gang of liars.
 
This is all over my commercial news. The army is not covering it up. They are investigating. We will see if it is covered up or of if these men are brought to trial. This was brought to the Army's attention by Army doctors who interview the troops after bad incidents like road side bombings and beheadings etc. as part of an attempt to reduce war induced psychological problems. The incident was reported to these doctors who then passed the information up prompting the investigation. It looks for all the world to me like the Army is trying to do the right thing here. The real question, in my opinion, is how much slack do you cut troops in war who see the death of their fellow soldiers and who have been through rigorous training intended in part to reduce a societally imposed reluctance to kill and have to live in the stress of war day after day after day.

This horrible incident curries us no favor, that is for sure, but if some measure of justice is met out by the military, it will say to me that the Army has come a long way since Nam. I see nothing but irrational nonsense in the OP's strident and distorted diatribe.
 
Best post ever Moonbeam.

In many ways the Army is like any other huge organization and will reflect the general population's shadier element. But soldiers also go through completely unnatural situations and conditions and the results can be unsettling. Overall, I think the Army does a stand-up job trying to prevent and deal with horrible occurances like this... much better than even a decade or two ago. Let's hope they never stop improving.

Whoever's guilty of these things should get the maximum punishment... and then some.

 
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Best post ever Moonbeam.

In many ways the Army is like any other huge organization and will reflect the general population's shadier element. But soldiers also go through completely unnatural situations and conditions and the results can be unsettling. Overall, I think the Army does a stand-up job trying to prevent and deal with horrible occurances like this... much better than even a decade or two ago. Let's hope they never stop improving.

Whoever's guilty of these things should get the maximum punishment... and then some.

Thank you but I am not sure why you call my post good when we seem to disagree, at least with respect to punishment. The Iraqis will be screaming for blood as well as some on the American right and the left while many military folk will want to give them a total pass. No matter which way the Military moves, weren't these guys actually Marines, somebody will be pisses which means that political pressures arise seeking to influence the sentence. Do you really think a maximum sentences is fair to folk who serve our country in a living hell were we have trained them to kill? Are you really sure you yourself could never crack under the strain? And if we give them a pass what message will that send. I know I would not want to judge this case, but I hope those who do can do it with compassion and understanding and wisdom and these men aren't treated like pawns for some ideological view. I hope too that what we see in the final outcome is some real struggle to find common ground. We aren't perfect but it sends a good message when we try. People may differ on their opinions of the outcome, but they may respect it if they can see an attempt was made to be fair. For that reason I can't see the 'maximum punishment and then some' as falling within that range. We sent them there on our behalf and some of the blame surly falls on us.
 
One small very salient point that you both miss regarding Iraq (and Vietnam) -- we had NO business attacking them in the first place so all of the results of that unprovoked attack, including all of the past and continuing atrocities, shuold never have happened. Period.
 
Originally posted by: BBond
One small very salient point that you both miss regarding Iraq (and Vietnam) -- we had NO business attacking them in the first place so all of the results of that unprovoked attack, including all of the past and continuing atrocities, shuold never have happened. Period.

Um, they "missed" that point because its NOT a valid point (its untrue). Your statement might apply to Iraq, but you obviously know nothing about the Vietnam War.
 
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Best post ever Moonbeam.

In many ways the Army is like any other huge organization and will reflect the general population's shadier element. But soldiers also go through completely unnatural situations and conditions and the results can be unsettling. Overall, I think the Army does a stand-up job trying to prevent and deal with horrible occurances like this... much better than even a decade or two ago. Let's hope they never stop improving.

Whoever's guilty of these things should get the maximum punishment... and then some.

If found guilty they should be strung up in the middle of the camp . That might be an effective deterant.
 
Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong
Originally posted by: BBond
One small very salient point that you both miss regarding Iraq (and Vietnam) -- we had NO business attacking them in the first place so all of the results of that unprovoked attack, including all of the past and continuing atrocities, shuold never have happened. Period.

Um, they "missed" that point because its NOT a valid point (its untrue). Your statement might apply to Iraq, but you obviously know nothing about the Vietnam War.

The Vietnam war began with the Gulf of Tonkin resolution. A lie. An excuse (like bush's lie about WMD) for an unprovoked attack against another country. The other similarity between Vietnam and Iraq is the disastrous outcome of America's unprovoked aggression. Or are you going to tell me I know nothing about that either? :roll:

Read up for yourself and then tell me what I don't know.

30-year Anniversary: Tonkin Gulf Lie Launched Vietnam War

Gulf of Tonkin Resolution



 
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong
Originally posted by: BBond
One small very salient point that you both miss regarding Iraq (and Vietnam) -- we had NO business attacking them in the first place so all of the results of that unprovoked attack, including all of the past and continuing atrocities, shuold never have happened. Period.

Um, they "missed" that point because its NOT a valid point (its untrue). Your statement might apply to Iraq, but you obviously know nothing about the Vietnam War.

The Vietnam war began with the Gulf of Tonkin resolution. A lie. An excuse (like bush's lie about WMD) for an unprovoked attack against another country. The other similarity between Vietnam and Iraq is the disastrous outcome of America's unprovoked aggression. Or are you going to tell me I know nothing about that either? :roll:

Read up for yourself and then tell me what I don't know.

30-year Anniversary: Tonkin Gulf Lie Launched Vietnam War

Gulf of Tonkin Resolution

Why do you say we missed that point. I don't know about cwjerome, but the fact that he didn't address that point doesn't mean he doesn't share it. I think I did address it when I said that we all share in the blame. You blame Bush, but I blame all of us because we were unable to stop him. It's not just Bush, but all of America that's to blame, in my opinion. Perhaps your hatred of Bush blinds you to this or perhaps you give yourself a pass. I do not give myself one. But as I would not have you shot before a firing squad because you failed to stop the war, I can see no justification to hold those soldiers any more responsible then I hold you. They were doing what they thought was service to the country and an honorable thing to do. They thought so, in my opinion, because people like us who see this war as madness were unable to persuade them of our truth. One man condemns the pagan for his worship of stone, but another sees that what he mistakes for a stone is really God. You may condemn the pagan but I cannot, at least when I act out of my better self which probably isn't too often.

 
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
What was the penalty for raping someone of another country during WW2? wasn?t it execution?

I'm sure it's worse than regular rape, possibly violating some big UN something...

Who knows. The bottom line is: this doesn't look good, although I doubt anyone's getting executed.
 
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Best post ever Moonbeam.

In many ways the Army is like any other huge organization and will reflect the general population's shadier element. But soldiers also go through completely unnatural situations and conditions and the results can be unsettling. Overall, I think the Army does a stand-up job trying to prevent and deal with horrible occurances like this... much better than even a decade or two ago. Let's hope they never stop improving.

Whoever's guilty of these things should get the maximum punishment... and then some.

Thank you but I am not sure why you call my post good when we seem to disagree, at least with respect to punishment. The Iraqis will be screaming for blood as well as some on the American right and the left while many military folk will want to give them a total pass. No matter which way the Military moves, weren't these guys actually Marines, somebody will be pisses which means that political pressures arise seeking to influence the sentence. Do you really think a maximum sentences is fair to folk who serve our country in a living hell were we have trained them to kill? Are you really sure you yourself could never crack under the strain? And if we give them a pass what message will that send. I know I would not want to judge this case, but I hope those who do can do it with compassion and understanding and wisdom and these men aren't treated like pawns for some ideological view. I hope too that what we see in the final outcome is some real struggle to find common ground. We aren't perfect but it sends a good message when we try. People may differ on their opinions of the outcome, but they may respect it if they can see an attempt was made to be fair. For that reason I can't see the 'maximum punishment and then some' as falling within that range. We sent them there on our behalf and some of the blame surly falls on us.


You're saying these soldiers should'nt be punished as a normal criminal would be? I think you could argue that the majority of rapes are committed by people who were raised in a hellhole with little money and an improper education. These people are punished rightfully, they dont get any slack because they had a bad upbringing or lived in the worst conditions. These soldiers should be punished just as a normal criminal would be, possibly more. The fact that they were sent to war and go through hell is not an excuse to commit such a horrible act.
 
I believe these soldiers should be tried and punished as harshly as anyone else convicted of the same crimes. And rape and murder is something that they have done in our names, not randomly on the streets. These things were done as representatives of our nation. In my opinion, war crimes should carry much greater penalties than civilian crimes.

My point was that while soldiers are committing these acts in our name, the United States has no credibility. My government has no credibility with me, because my government's soldiers have done this. When my government tells me that we need to invade another country to liberate it, I'm skeptical, because the actions of our soldiers make me think otherwise. We're engendering far more hatred in Iraq and elsewhere than "liberating" anyone.

It would be nice if the military deals with this in a non-political and "just" manner. But this doesn't change the fact that there must be credibility for any of the government's arguments to hold water. Without credibility, we can't be looking for weapons of mass destruction, we can't be freeing Iraq, and we can't be deposing a dictator.

I see very, very little to distinguish this from what we'd jump to call an act of terrorism if it happened to our own people. A few people (not even Afgani) did something to us on September 11th. In retaliation, we destroyed the country of Afganistan (most of them were Saudi, but we like Saudi Arabia, so that was inconvenient) without finding the person responsible. We judged the entire country based on what a few "terrorists" did to the United States.

How can we expect the world to *not* judge the United States by the actions of these rapists and murderers? Yet that's exactly what we're not only asking, but blindly expecting the world to do, and what we're doing ourselves. We will jump to judge others harshly, but will not think of ourselves as rapists, murderers, or torturers, even though scandal after scandal shows us to be exactly that.

With such blatant hypocrisy, I can't justify a single argument for the war in Iraq. I'm ashamed that this country has fallen to this level.

Dave.
 
The Washington Post printed a story with details of this atrocity. This child who was raped, shot in the head, and set on fire by AMERICAN TROOPS, this child our military and press insists on referring to as a "woman", WAS FIFTEEN YEARS OLD. Unless you're willing to believe the U.S. military who, with an obvious vested interest in not admitting these troops, on top of being rapists and murderers are child molesters as well, insists she was twenty years old. But that is another lie that flies in the face of information from neighbors of the girl, the mayor of Mamudiyah, and HOSPITAL RECORDS.

Either way, fifteen, twenty, or whatever, these troops planned and carried out their rape and the execution of an entire family. I lay blame directly at the feet of george w. bush, dick cheney, condoleeza rice, and the rest of the vile bush administration and their PNAC buddies whose lies caused our military to attack a nation that posed no threat and had no plans, intent, or even the ability to attack us.

Read on and prepare to be completely disgusted. Read about how the U.S. military, which is supposedly investigating this atrocity, tried to find the funeral of this family to "recover" the bodies. This was done prior to the "investigation". Why would they do that? Only one possible answer, to cover up the atrocity they are supposedly "investigating" now. Yet they still haven't detained the child molesting rapists and murderers who did this? And they further try to lessen the impact by insisting this FIFTEEN YEAR OLD CHILD was a "woman" when all the available evidence proves their claim to be a lie.

What a disgrace to our military and our nation. The world must view us as a truly sick nation after Abu Ghraib and all the other atrocities we've committed in Iraq and elsewhere. And they would be justified in painting us all with the same broad brush because we as a nation refuse to stop the "evil-doers" whose "leadership" has continued to perpetrate these crimes.

Details Emerge in Alleged Army Rape, Killings

By Ellen Knickmeyer
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, July 3, 2006; Page A15

BAGHDAD, July 2 -- Fifteen-year-old Abeer Qasim Hamza was afraid, her mother confided in a neighbor.

As pretty as she was young, the girl had attracted the unwelcome attention of U.S. soldiers manning a checkpoint that the girl had to pass through almost daily in their village in the south-central city of Mahmudiyah, her mother told the neighbor.

Abeer told her mother again and again in her last days that the soldiers had made advances toward her, a neighbor, Omar Janabi, said this weekend, recounting a conversation he said he had with the girl's mother, Fakhriyah, on March 10.

Fakhriyah feared that the Americans might come for her daughter at night, at their home. She asked her neighbor if Abeer might sleep at his house, with the women there.

Janabi said he agreed.

Then, "I tried to reassure her, remove some of her fear," Janabi said. "I told her, the Americans would not do such a thing."

Abeer did not live to take up the offer of shelter.


Instead, attackers came to the girl's house the next day, apparently separating Abeer from her mother, father and young sister.

Janabi and others knowledgeable about the incident said they believed that the attackers raped Abeer in another room. Medical officials who handled the bodies also said the girl had been raped, but they did not elaborate.

Before leaving, the attackers fatally shot the four family members -- two of Abeer's brothers had been away at school -- and attempted to set Abeer's body on fire,
according to Janabi, another neighbor who spoke on condition of anonymity, the mayor of Mahmudiyah and a hospital administrator with knowledge of the case.

The U.S. military said last week that authorities were investigating allegations of a rape and killings in Mahmudiyah by soldiers of the 502nd Infantry Regiment, part of the 4th Infantry Division.

The mayor of Mahmudiyah, Mouyad Fadhil Saif, said Sunday that the case was being investigated by the U.S. military as an alleged atrocity.

Janabi was one of the first people to arrive at the house after the attack, he said Saturday, speaking to a Washington Post special correspondent at the home of local tribal leaders. He said he found Abeer sprawled dead in a corner, her hair and a pillow next to her consumed by fire, and her dress pushed up to her neck.

"I was sure from the first glance that she had been raped," he said.


Despite the reassurances he had given the girl's mother earlier, Janabi said, "I wasn't surprised what had happened, when I found that the suspicion of the mother was correct."

The U.S. military has not identified the victims. U.S. military officials contacted this weekend said they did not know the names of the people involved or most other details of the case, although one military official confirmed that according to preliminary information gathered by investigators, the family lived near a U.S. checkpoint and the killings happened about March 12.

The military official pointed to one discrepancy in the accounts, however. Preliminary information in the military investigation put the age of the alleged rape victim at 20, rather than 15, as reported by her neighbors, officials and hospital records and officials in Mahmudiyah.

U.S. soldiers at the scene initially ascribed the killings to Sunni Arab insurgents active in the area, the U.S. military and local residents said. That puzzled villagers, who knew that the family was Sunni, Janabi said. Other residents assumed the killings were sectarian, with Shiite Muslim militiamen as the likely culprit.

But on June 23, three months after the incident, two soldiers of the 502nd came forward to say that soldiers of the unit were responsible, a U.S. military official said last week. The U.S. military began an investigation the next day, the official said.

Officials said last week that none of the four soldiers under investigation had been detained, although one had been discharged for unrelated reasons.

Family members have given permission for exhumation of Abeer's body, Janabi and the mayor said.

The case is at least the fourth American military investigation announced since March of alleged atrocities by U.S. forces in Iraq.

The rape allegation makes the Mahmudiyah case potentially incendiary in Iraq. Rape is seen as a crime smearing the honor of the family as well as the victim in conservative communities here.

Death certificates viewed Sunday at the Mahmudiyah hospital identified the victims as Fakhriyah Taha Muhsin, 34, killed by gunshots to her head; Qasim Hamza Raheem, 45, whose head was "smashed" by bullets; Hadeel Qasim Hamza, 7, Abeer's sister, shot; and Abeer, shot in the head. Abeer's body also showed burns, the death certificate noted.

Janabi said U.S. soldiers controlled the scene of the killings for several hours on March 11, telling neighbors that insurgents were responsible. The bodies of the victims were taken to Mahmudiyah hospital by March 12, according to Janabi and an official at the hospital, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

On March 13, a man identifying himself as a relative claimed the bodies for burial, the hospital official said. An hour after the man left with the bodies, U.S. soldiers came to the hospital and asked about the bodies, the hospital official said.

The next day, the hospital official said, soldiers scoured the area, trying to find the funeral for the family.


"But they did not find it, simply because the relatives did not do it, because the death includes the rape of one of the family members, which is something shameful in our tradition," the hospital official said.

"The family kept the news a secret, fearing the disgrace," he said. "They thought it was done by militias, not U.S. forces."

Reached by telephone Saturday at his home in Iskandariyah, south of Mahmudiyah, a member of the extended family would not discuss the incident.

"What is the benefit of publishing this story?" said Abeer's uncle, Bassem. "People will read about this crime. And they will forget about it the next day."

 
Have a happy Fourth of July, America. Enjoy your fireworks. Have a hot dog. Wave your flags. Sing a patriotic anthem or two. Cover your heart with your right hand as you sing the Star Spangled Banner or recite the Pledge of Allegiance (those few of you who actually know the words).

And hang your heads in disgrace. The word is out. America has indeed donned the face of its leaders. This is the honor and dignity that those who are wholly without either honor or dignity have brought you because you are either too stupid, apathetic, or downright evil to care about or recognize the truth about what your "leaders" have done. Crimes so vile the victims' nation's own press won't even publish them.

Iraq clerics say rape case shows 'ugly America'

Source: Reuters

BAGHDAD, July 2 (Reuters) - News of the alleged rape and murder of an Iraqi woman by U.S. soldiers and the killing of her family "reveals the real, ugly face of America", Iraq's main organisation of Sunni Muslim clerics said on Sunday.

The Muslim Scholars Association, a fierce critic of the U.S. occupation, was a rare voice raised in anger, however, with few Iraqi media willing to broach the taboo topic of rape since U.S. commanders revealed their investigation on Friday.

"(We) condemn this grotesque crime and say to the entire world ... it reveals the real ugly face of America," the Association said in a statement on its Web site.

"This act committed by the occupying soldiers, from raping the girl to mutilating her body and killing her family, should make all humanity feel ashamed."

Coming after announcements of U.S. investigations into other suspected murders and killings, including that of 24 people in the western town of Haditha, the added element of rape may cause particular outrage in Iraq's conservative Muslim society.

But only one major Baghdad newspaper carried an account of the case, in which at least three soldiers face investigation over the rape and the killing of the Iraqi woman and three other people in the family home at Mahmudiya, just south of the city, in March.

As with previous allegations of abuse by American troops, such as the 2004 scandal over prisoners maltreated at Abu Ghraib jail, Iraqis' initial reactions appear muted partly due to the widespread view that such misconduct is already common and partly due to embarrassment about discussing such subjects.

In recent months, officials say, commanders have cracked down on rogue soldiers in a bid to gain the trust of ordinary Iraqis and of their new government after three years of growing resentment that U.S. officers say risks fuelling the insurgency.

Crackdown on rogue soldiers you say? Just how many "rogue" soldiers do we have in Iraq? How many atrocities have been committed that our military has been able to cover up?

Iraq will be remembered as the worst disgrace in America's history. And you people chose to "re-elect" the perpetrators out of fear and ingorance.

Enjoy those hot dogs and fireworks and while you are take a look at your kids and imagine this happened to one of them, then ask yourselves, how would YOU feel about an invader that did something like this to one of them and YOUR family?
 
Originally posted by: jimkyser
Which begs the question of why haven't they been cracking down on rogue soldiers all along?

Which begs the question of why does America still believes the big lies told to us daily?

Small wonder that bush wants to gag the press. :roll:

 
Originally posted by: ss284
Originally posted by: BBond
blah blah blah

If you are so upset why dont you just GTFO and move up to Canada like all the other America haters?

Because I won't sit by idly while a bunch of a$$holes fvck up my country.

If you're so supportive of these criminals why don't you just GTFO and move to Alcatraz? Or better yet, if you're so supportive of these fascists why don't you re-build Hitler's Germany?

Oh, wait, they already are!

You should be so very proud. From fascism at home to self-agrandizing unprovoked military aggression abroad to torture to rape to murder to pillaging -- you people learned well from der Fuhrer!
 
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: ss284
Originally posted by: BBond
blah blah blah

If you are so upset why dont you just GTFO and move up to Canada like all the other America haters?

Because I won't sit by idly while a bunch of a$$holes fvck up my country.

If you're so supportive of these criminals why don't you just GTFO and move to Alcatraz? Or better yet, if you're so supportive of these fascists why don't you re-build Hitler's Germany?

Oh, wait, they already are!

You should be so very proud. From fascism at home to self-agrandizing unprovoked military aggression abroad to torture to rape to murder to pillaging -- you people learned well from der Fuhrer!

When did I ever say I supported the soldiers that did this? I never said any of those things. I simply stated, if you hate America so much, which is obvious from your statements, that you should move the hell out.

You're just being a ignorant loudmouth that tries to yell and scream to get whatever your point is across. You're attempting to put words into my mouth that I never said. Ive dealt with people like you before, too bad it doesnt really work on an online messageboard.

Originally posted by: BBond
Oh, I get it. I'm either "for you" or "against you", right?

The only thing thats obvious is that you're against America and you shouldnt be living in this country.
 
BTW, if you support the people whose policies and actions caused this you support everything that their actions and policies caused because YOU enabled them through your blind support.
 
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