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What would you like to see in post-ATX case standards?

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,999
307
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ATX cases have evolved slowly to allow us pretty much to use newer cases even with the older motherboards without much problem. You can even generally use an older case as long as you swap out powersupplies. But now that computer components are getting increasingly smaller what new standards would you like to see?

Would you like to see half-height PCI cards?

Would you like to see double-wide AGP slots?

Would you like to see the 3.5" floppy removed or at least shrunk, too?
 

AndyHui

Administrator Emeritus<br>Elite Member<br>AT FAQ M
Oct 9, 1999
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There are hot swappable device bays in the PCI Express standard. Let me see if I can put up an image.
 

Lord Evermore

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
9,558
0
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ATX is a specification for the size, shape, and layout of a motherboard, and the design of a power supply. It has nothing to do with the cases, except insofar as the cases have to be designed to accept a motherboard based on the standard in order to be called ATX-compliant.

AGP isn't part of the ATX specification (in fact only PCI and ISA are mentioned in it, and that seems to be only so it specifies what they mean by expansion card), so the space taken up by them is dependent on motherboard makers' designs. Some boards do have a double-spaced AGP slot with a missing PCI slot.

There already are half-height PCI cards and cases that use them, they're just not very wide-spread. The width of the PCI card isn't part of the ATX spec either, I think it's part of the PCI spec There is a definite spec for how wide a half-height card is. There just isn't a wide enough need for half-height cards for most devices. I'm no engineer, but it certainly looks like some PCI devices like upper-end sound cards can't possibly be shrunken down to half the width. Other devices like some TV cards or network cards just need a different slot plate, as they're already half-width. Essentially, the cases already have a spec for half-height devices, but there aren't many of such devices, and that's not a fault of the ATX spec.

The floppy is also not part of the ATX spec, so cases that don't have them can be freely made. But most manufacturers of any moderate size case just put it in there because they'd rather people have it available, rather than have someone complain about it being missing. Very small form factor cases are available without a floppy.

Now, the floppy itself should be gotten rid of and replaced with a more reliable and faster device, which is still COMPATIBLE with the way a floppy controller works. The very most basic functions of the BIOS involve the ISA bus and the floppy controller and a keyboard. The emergency recovery functions of a BIOS, which allow you to flash the BIOS using a floppy in case of a bad flash, depend on the floppy functioning. No floppy means you have to do a hot-swap of the chip itself. The floppy has uses that are still good, but the floppy itself is no longer a good device. And while most of us here know how to make and use a bootable CDROM, the average home user only knows how to use a bootable floppy, so an easy to use, compatible bootable device is needed. If the OS goes to look for a floppy, it should find the device and think it sees a floppy. Not sure how formatting would work in that case though.

A new type of controller needs to be designed which the BIOS can work with as if it were a floppy, so that we get speed, and a reliable device, but still retain the basic functions of the floppy. Alternatively, the BIOS could be redesigned to replace the features that a floppy and the ISA bus provide (for video after a bad flash), using either the PCI bus and the IDE ports, or a new type of device connection. However I think that's asking too much of the BIOS; I don't know just how much complexity they can cram in there, and the ISA bus and floppy and keyboard control is likely the most simple basic system that can be done.

There are changes to the ATX spec that would result in case design changing.

Adding slots to the specification (which calls for 7 now), and then allowing case designers to make a case based on whichever number of slots they want (so you could get like an ATX-7 case, or an ATX-12 case). However, motherboard makers would have to retool, and motherboard costs would go up. Most chipsets only support 5 or 6 PCI slots in the first place, so they'd have to put an extra PCI bridge chip on the board for any more slots. The result would basically be that only expensive boards would have more slots, and cases for that would be expensive too. Given the trend to integration of high-performance components, the need for more slots is generally going down anyway (only dorks like in these forums need more). Of course the addition of more slots gives board makers the chance to provide all 6 PCI slots while still giving the AGP slot a wide berth for airflow. It could even let them leave open slot space above the AGP card to allow for proper mounting of a slot fan to bring fresh air to the CPU.

What case design really needs, and which would require a change to the ATX spec and maybe even others, is standardization of all connectors. Right now the "standard" seems to be that the common colored wire is the ground wire, but too many cases don't perfectly go that way, often with the speaker wires being completely differently colored, and sometimes the power switch cable being completely separate and colored differently. The boards should have the pins more plainly labelled or color coded, and all cases should have wires distinctly and consistently colored or labelled to match.

Also connectors for things like Firewire ports and USB ports needs to be standardized in one final way. Right now a case with USB ports in front may come with a solid block connector, or 9 single pin connectors that you have to sort through, and then figure out what your motherboard's ports have for an arrangement to match them. Firewire ports come in multiple types of connectors. You might have a case with the standard metal connector on the end, or wires ending in single pin connectors that you have to match to the pin layout on the board. On the boards themselves, you may have a rectangular box with pins inside, or you might have a single row of pins with a proprietary connector for the manufacturer's back panel ports.
 

Lord Evermore

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
9,558
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Why'd they bother with that upper PCI slot, given that the swap-bay covers the back plate? What does the back of that look like, since the slots have a bar of metal between them? Does it support two devices in the bay on a single port? (For some reason after thinking that, I seemed to remember something about 3GIO or PCI-Express allowing multiple devices on a slot.)

Of course, if you're going to go so far as having PCI devices that can be hot swapped, they should have gone ahead and made it so you could have the devices mounted in a front 5.25" bay. Although I assume signal integrity and frequency would be a problem then.
 

AndyHui

Administrator Emeritus<br>Elite Member<br>AT FAQ M
Oct 9, 1999
13,141
17
81
The schematics for the back of the system don't show any part of the case itself. It's simply a sliding bay like a removable hard drive drawer, but designed for cards.

They do have as part of the specification, external devices boxes which are linked with a cable similar to Serial ATA. Let me see if I can find a pic of that too.

The NewCard specification (PCMCIA on PCI-Express) calls for two half-width cards to fit in a single Type II slot.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,999
307
126
The PCI-Express will be able to use two cards in one slot?? That would save space. A standard PCMCIA-like slot system would probably work fine for most devices.

btw - Thanks L.E., I had a brain fart thinking PCI/AGP specs were part of the ATX standard. You're absolutely correct that they are standard specifications for each type.
 

Lord Evermore

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
9,558
0
76
PCMCIA devices are terribly expensive though in comparison to their PCI counterparts. So the ability to mount multiple devices in a single slot will only be useful to people with money to throw around or with specific needs. And I'm sure you'd have to buy the mounting device separately, so it wouldn't even make it cost-effective to share a NewCard network card between two machines or something.

I'm not sure what the point of a PCMCIA on PCI-Express standard is anyway. We already can buy PCI adapters that allow a PCCard to be used. I'd assume that two cards could be set up just as easily if you could actually fit two cards into a single expansion slot opening, because the controller card can handle the multiple devices communicating the same way an expansion IDE controller or SCSI controller does.
 

paralazarguer

Banned
Jun 22, 2002
1,887
0
0
madrat, what happened to your elite status?

Anyway, that PCI express thing is seriously cool. Do you think that it'll start to expand beyong the case to external HDDs and CDRWs etc?
 

tRaptor

Golden Member
Jul 31, 2002
1,227
1
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ONE thing i REALLY want is a standard for the HD, Power, Reset, bla, bla, bla.

The little cords that run to the fornt of the case (you know what i'm talking about) They should just make it into a block and have it be part of the ATX standard so its just ONE easy "cant plug it in the wrong way" block.

EX: Gateway has all of theirs on a "block" you cant plug it in the wrong way, and its EASY
 

paralazarguer

Banned
Jun 22, 2002
1,887
0
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ONE thing i REALLY want is a standard for the HD, Power, Reset, bla, bla, bla.

The little cords that run to the fornt of the case (you know what i'm talking about) They should just make it into a block and have it be part of the ATX standard so its just ONE easy "cant plug it in the wrong way" block.

Yes. I totally agree. SOme boards, especially really cheap ones like ECS have different connectors so that you have to actually remove the wire from the block and move it over one space in the block just to have it work. How stupid.

I also wish they'd do the same for USB. I know that some motherboard makers do it very similarly sometimes but cases sometimes have 10 little wires and you have to figure out where each one goes. Why do they do that?
 

tRaptor

Golden Member
Jul 31, 2002
1,227
1
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Originally posted by: paralazarguer
ONE thing i REALLY want is a standard for the HD, Power, Reset, bla, bla, bla.

The little cords that run to the fornt of the case (you know what i'm talking about) They should just make it into a block and have it be part of the ATX standard so its just ONE easy "cant plug it in the wrong way" block.

Yes. I totally agree. SOme boards, especially really cheap ones like ECS have different connectors so that you have to actually remove the wire from the block and move it over one space in the block just to have it work. How stupid.

I also wish they'd do the same for USB. I know that some motherboard makers do it very similarly sometimes but cases sometimes have 10 little wires and you have to figure out where each one goes. Why do they do that?

YEAH I forgot about the USB one too, we where just talking about this the other day.
 

bgeh

Platinum Member
Nov 16, 2001
2,946
0
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i want standardized case to mobo headers so i don't need to check whether i put the headers wrong or not....................

:)

EDIT: oops, didn't read the whole post...............but this a very important point IMHO
it's annoying everytime i close the case and find out that i put the LED connector wrong and i have to do it all over again
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,999
307
126
So far we have needs for:

1. Standardized front panel connector-block (See tRaptor's comments)
2. Standardized USB/USB 2.0 connector block (See paralazarguer's comments)
3. Support for PCI-EXPRESS expansion slots (See AndyHui's comments; he pointed out its not really an ATX standard)
4. Add standardized placement for Firewire connectors on the Motherboard Connector Panel (See AndyHui's comments)
5. Replacement for floppy with a new standardized device (See AndyHui's comments)

Of course, Andy, being the handy AT FAQ man, is the man when it comes to foresight in this area. ;)

Perhaps either Andy or Evan can drop some hints to Intel on this matter?? *looks around for Evan Lieb*

Keep the ideas coming, Gents! Surely these aren't all you want in the next generation of standardized case.
 

AndyHui

Administrator Emeritus<br>Elite Member<br>AT FAQ M
Oct 9, 1999
13,141
17
81
PCI-X is not PCI Express. Two different things.

PCI-X is an extension of the existing PCI standard. PCI Express is a whole new ball game.