What would modern MMOs be like.....

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
It would be interesting to speculate on this "what if" scenario. I have only played three MMORPGs to a significant degree, one was WoW and the other two were "wow clones," at least now and according to various posts that I have seen on these and other boards.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
Either there would be other good MMOs because there'd be more incentive to make one (no one is leaving WoW), or the genre would be dead.
 

Bateluer

Lifer
Jun 23, 2001
27,730
8
0
There would be more MMOs, though each would have a smaller subscriber base. They'd also be more unique, instead of the generation of WoW clones we're getting now.

I've said it before, but it bares repeating, WoW will destroy a generation of MMOs by catering to the lowest common denominator.
 

Fardringle

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2000
9,200
765
126
There are many other very good quality MMOs (some that have better graphics and better game play than WoW) on the market. Some people even claim that these other games are "WoW clones" even though they have been around a lot longer than World of Warcraft and WoW is in fact a clone of the other games in many ways. WoW is simply the most popular right because of Blizzard's marketing budget combined with their loyal player base from the original Warcraft games.
 

techgamer

Senior member
Sep 19, 2007
570
0
0
MMOs are not dead...Spend some time reading Warhammer Age of Reckonnings website. This game will be 10x better than WoW
 

gorcorps

aka Brandon
Jul 18, 2004
30,739
454
126
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Either there would be other good MMOs because there'd be more incentive to make one (no one is leaving WoW), or the genre would be dead.

I don't think people not leaving WoW is the reason there aren't other good MMOs made. I think the lack of other quality alternatives is why they don't leave. Make the game first and PRY people away from WoW with how great it is.
 

skace

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
14,488
7
81
Considering WoW is just DAOC and DAOC is just EQ, they'd all still be similar to EQ in some nature. If you went and eliminated WoW, DAOC, EQ and all the other spawns of this style of gameplay. You'd be left with an MMO genre that would have most likely followed Asheron's Call in some nature.

Oh and these discussions of why people don't leave WoW are the SAME EXACT DISCUSSIONS people used to have back in EQ. I mean, exact, as in identical minus the name change. It is so hillarious reading them again. Back when EQ was popular people would always ask why everyone plays it and why they don't go to something else and how come no one can make anything better. The real answer is that it is not easy to make these games and you need skill and a hard working team that can eat a massive amount of startup costs to dethrone a good game in the MMO genre.
 

imported_Shivetya

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2005
2,978
1
0
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
It would be interesting to speculate on this "what if" scenario. I have only played three MMORPGs to a significant degree, one was WoW and the other two were "wow clones," at least now and according to various posts that I have seen on these and other boards.

You can already see it, some of the others haven't learned. TR is a great example of what ALL MMORPGs would be like if blizzard didn't raise the bar.


Oh, there would have been less MMORPGS in development, the success of WOW brought in lots of money that never looked at this category
 

Elcs

Diamond Member
Apr 27, 2002
6,278
6
81
Someone would have made something equal if not better in popularity.

Personally, i have never seen the attraction in WoW
 

Engraver

Senior member
Jun 5, 2007
812
0
0
Originally posted by: Elcs
Someone would have made something equal if not better in popularity.

Personally, i have never seen the attraction in WoW

It was good until they added Blackwing Lair, then it went all downhill from there. Even though the game was always about gear, that's when it really started to take off.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: techgamer
MMOs are not dead...Spend some time reading Warhammer Age of Reckonnings website. This game will be 10x better than WoW

It's going to be good, but it depends on what you play an MMO for. I theorize that WoW will still be the best in terms of PvE play, but who knows.
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
2
0
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
It would be interesting to speculate on this "what if" scenario. I have only played three MMORPGs to a significant degree, one was WoW and the other two were "wow clones," at least now and according to various posts that I have seen on these and other boards.

Curious as to which two MMOs you played? I'm guessing LOTRO is one, not sure on the other.

As for the initial question....I think we have to see what the next-gen of MMOs brings to the table to see the impact WoW had on the genre. I definitely think WoW has been great for the MMO genre though, as it clearly brought PC gaming into pop culture like no other game before it. I think it also added a lot of pressure for future MMOs, further emphasizing the need for a strong franchise-based setting along with strong dev support and updated content.

A few other main features I think WoW has brought to MMOs are fast-paced action/leveling and simplified combat along with less emphasis on grouping and more solo content. Also, less rigid in-game content focused on instances/events rather than world/server spawns. This leads to more casual gameplay that lends itself to the mainstream and a broader audience.

Overall I think it'll encourage more devs/publishers to take risks on MMOs (after seeing how lucrative it can be), but at the same time it may discourage smaller devs/publishers from trying their hand at it seeing how difficult it is to do well in the genre. LOTRO would be a good example of a game based on a strong franchise with great visuals that simply hasn't come close to WoW's success. Its still kinda early for LOTRO, but having played it for 8 months or so since its release I don't think its looking real good for them.
 

techgamer

Senior member
Sep 19, 2007
570
0
0
I still think that EQ1 was more fun than WoW for me. I loved 50-100 man raids on open zones to down a massive boss. Who cares if it takes 8 hours and a million CRs lol. That was the best times. It was definitely more of a commitment though. I think thats the major difference.

I agree with chizow I think the future of MMOs is going to be a lot of
A few other main features I think WoW has brought to MMOs are fast-paced action/leveling and simplified combat along with less emphasis on grouping and more solo content. Also, less rigid in-game content focused on instances/events rather than world/server spawns. This leads to more casual gameplay that lends itself to the mainstream and a broader audience.

Mainly b/c people dont have as much time to commit but want to play an mmorpg.
 

skace

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
14,488
7
81
Originally posted by: chizow
Its still kinda early for LOTRO, but having played it for 8 months or so since its release I don't think its looking real good for them.

If you've played LOTRO for 8 months you should know what is wrong with it by now.
 

boatillo

Senior member
Dec 14, 2004
368
0
0
Hate to burst your bubble, but WoW offered absolutely nothing to the MMO genre that was not already there.

What they did was pull elements together to make playing an MMO a socially accepted mainstream hobby.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: boatillo
Hate to burst your bubble, but WoW offered absolutely nothing to the MMO genre that was not already there.

What they did was pull elements together to make playing an MMO a socially accepted mainstream hobby.

Does it matter as long as it is fun?

I don't think they offered a truck load of new things, but they did polish tons of ideas that already existed to make them much more fun even from a replay sense. That polish is now becoming a standard. Some do not agree of course, but nearly 10 million subscribers do. There is a reason why they play and it is not because they are bored or that there isn't anything else out there to spend time playing considering the number of hit titles released this year. If WoW happens to not be your thing then there is plenty of other games to play.
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
2
0
Originally posted by: skace
Originally posted by: chizow
Its still kinda early for LOTRO, but having played it for 8 months or so since its release I don't think its looking real good for them.

If you've played LOTRO for 8 months you should know what is wrong with it by now.

And that would be? I'm not going to sit here and pretend the problems I have with LOTRO are the same as everyone else's, but there's certainly more than one problem with the game cited as a reason people leave it or don't pick it up to begin with.

Originally posted by: boatillo
Hate to burst your bubble, but WoW offered absolutely nothing to the MMO genre that was not already there.

What they did was pull elements together to make playing an MMO a socially accepted mainstream hobby.
And I never claimed it did anything ground-breaking or earth-shattering for the genre, but thanks for identifying something WoW brought to the genre while claiming it brought nothing in the same breath. ;)

 

Scrimmy

Member
Oct 19, 2007
144
0
0
I think it's important to understand what Blizzard actually did with WoW, though. As others have said, Blizzard as a company has never really been about innovation, but rather about taking all the little things that make other games successful then combining into a well-polished, fun-as-hell game. This analogy is a bit of a stretch, but I'll make it anyway: Shakespeare never wrote an original storyline in his life. Virtually all of his plays come from appropriating source material (histories, classical myths, etc.) and he was prone to outright plagiarism every once in a while when it suited him (Cleopatra's barge description, for example). But does it matter? He's freaking Shakespeare, it's all in the execution and in the performance.

Lots of games have a few brilliant little parts to them, but most of the time those parts are overshadowed by serious game flaws. Blizzard, however, has the capital and the development to ensure that everything in the game is well-polished as well as humanly possible. Their games, pretty much across the board, are fun, relatively easy to learn, and have incredible replayability, and I do think they really have raised the bar significantly for the MMO genre.

A lot of these changes have resulted in a bit of a dumbing down of the genre, but I think a lot of that is actually a good thing. It makes MMOs attractive to investors so we're more likely to get good games in the future once people see the kinds of cash Blizzard is raking in (for some reason, I always imagine Blizzard'd CEO swimming in piles of cash like Scrooge McDuck). I played EQ at release and no matter how nostalgic I get for those good old days, I can't say I miss the de-leveling, cross-continent corpse runs because I died before I was able to get a bind, and 18-hour farm fests in ToV while competing with another guild for spawns, trying to train them before they trained us. I quit WoW and sold my account a few months ago (for 800 bucks, no less), but I recently bought a new account and have been messing around with that because the game is still pretty fun.

I ended up quitting because the grind just became too much; I was in a BWL/AQ40 farming guild before Naxx came out, but the size of that freaking dungeon and the amount of time necessary to progress finally broke me as the game began to revolve entirely around grinds that got even worse with TBC. The PvP system overhaul was great, but that became another grind that you either have to do exclusively from PvE raiding or spend 40 hours a week doing like it's another job. If a lot of the game content ended up dumbed down on the lower end, at the higher end it just demands too much time to be even remotely competitive. Starting a new PvP character, for example, you now need to grind out an entire season's worth of Season 1 Arena gear in the BGs before you can even think about doing Arena.

If WoW pushed the game too far into the mainstream and dumbed it down, I think a few of the games on the horizon stand a good chance at cracking into their fanbase, with Age of Conan the most interesting for me. Warhammer Online looks good and the one I'm really, really excited about is the no-info Bioware sci-fi game, and I've also read that Tim Cain, the lead dev for the Fallout series is working on a sci-fi MMO for NCSoft, although I haven't seen any more into than that it exists.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: Scrimmy
I think it's important to understand what Blizzard actually did with WoW, though. As others have said, Blizzard as a company has never really been about innovation, but rather about taking all the little things that make other games successful then combining into a well-polished, fun-as-hell game. This analogy is a bit of a stretch, but I'll make it anyway: Shakespeare never wrote an original storyline in his life. Virtually all of his plays come from appropriating source material (histories, classical myths, etc.) and he was prone to outright plagiarism every once in a while when it suited him (Cleopatra's barge description, for example). But does it matter? He's freaking Shakespeare, it's all in the execution and in the performance.

Lots of games have a few brilliant little parts to them, but most of the time those parts are overshadowed by serious game flaws. Blizzard, however, has the capital and the development to ensure that everything in the game is well-polished as well as humanly possible. Their games, pretty much across the board, are fun, relatively easy to learn, and have incredible replayability, and I do think they really have raised the bar significantly for the MMO genre.

A lot of these changes have resulted in a bit of a dumbing down of the genre, but I think a lot of that is actually a good thing. It makes MMOs attractive to investors so we're more likely to get good games in the future once people see the kinds of cash Blizzard is raking in (for some reason, I always imagine Blizzard'd CEO swimming in piles of cash like Scrooge McDuck). I played EQ at release and no matter how nostalgic I get for those good old days, I can't say I miss the de-leveling, cross-continent corpse runs because I died before I was able to get a bind, and 18-hour farm fests in ToV while competing with another guild for spawns, trying to train them before they trained us. I quit WoW and sold my account a few months ago (for 800 bucks, no less), but I recently bought a new account and have been messing around with that because the game is still pretty fun.

I ended up quitting because the grind just became too much; I was in a BWL/AQ40 farming guild before Naxx came out, but the size of that freaking dungeon and the amount of time necessary to progress finally broke me as the game began to revolve entirely around grinds that got even worse with TBC. The PvP system overhaul was great, but that became another grind that you either have to do exclusively from PvE raiding or spend 40 hours a week doing like it's another job. If a lot of the game content ended up dumbed down on the lower end, at the higher end it just demands too much time to be even remotely competitive. Starting a new PvP character, for example, you now need to grind out an entire season's worth of Season 1 Arena gear in the BGs before you can even think about doing Arena.

If WoW pushed the game too far into the mainstream and dumbed it down, I think a few of the games on the horizon stand a good chance at cracking into their fanbase, with Age of Conan the most interesting for me. Warhammer Online looks good and the one I'm really, really excited about is the no-info Bioware sci-fi game, and I've also read that Tim Cain, the lead dev for the Fallout series is working on a sci-fi MMO for NCSoft, although I haven't seen any more into than that it exists.

I used to feel this way until they came out with a lot of daily quests and I learned to pace myself more. The release of so many great titles this year helped with that pacing. :)
 

Scrimmy

Member
Oct 19, 2007
144
0
0
I used to feel this way until they came out with a lot of daily quests and I learned to pace myself more. The release of so many great titles this year helped with that pacing.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking with the new character I'm playing around with. I made a hunter for the ease of leveling, and it seems like a class that's pretty well-suited to both casual play and BG farming.

What I think WoW really did for the genre was change a lot of the basic assumptions about progression; it made leveling fun and easy, with the game really beginning at max level. This was a big improvment over EQ, I think, because there were so many people who never even made it close to max level in that. Where I think they got it wrong is that they made progression entirely gear-dependent, so the gaps between new players and experienced players end up becoming insurmountable. I think Blizzard recognizes this (hence Season 1 Arena gear on honor vendors), but there's still too much of a barrier to entry to high-end play for new players. Even as a very experienced raider (I won't even say how many hours a week I spent raiding), it'd probably be about 6 months at 70 before I would even begin to consider myself geared up enough to app to a high-end raid guild.

I think the next big advance is going to be in fundamentally changing combat; fighting in every MMO from EQ on has been some variation on auto-attacking, with the biggest evolution being the addition of more buttons. My feeling is that the first game to move away from this successfully has the best shot at taking the crown from WoW, with Age of Conan being the frontrunner here. Combat in AoC seems to be modeled much more after Oblivion. They even have mounted combat. Of course, this makes the players much more latency-dependent, but if it were easy, someone else would have already done it, wouldn't they?
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: Scrimmy
I think the next big advance is going to be in fundamentally changing combat; fighting in every MMO from EQ on has been some variation on auto-attacking, with the biggest evolution being the addition of more buttons. My feeling is that the first game to move away from this successfully has the best shot at taking the crown from WoW, with Age of Conan being the frontrunner here. Combat in AoC seems to be modeled much more after Oblivion. They even have mounted combat. Of course, this makes the players much more latency-dependent, but if it were easy, someone else would have already done it, wouldn't they?

That would be one of the big issues. HGL, even with it's many critiques, did dive into this idea but they don't have raids yet even though they plan to. When they do, I don't think they will be large and I expect a lot of lag complaints. I feel that FIOS will need to become a standard before this dream is realized in its full potential.
 

TestedAcorn

Golden Member
Mar 14, 2007
1,228
1
0
I hate MMO's, in zeropunctuation's words "MMO's are grindtastic" You play one MMO, you've play 3/4 MMO's.
 

BooGiMaN

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2001
7,955
0
0
Originally posted by: techgamer
MMOs are not dead...Spend some time reading Warhammer Age of Reckonnings website. This game will be 10x better than WoW

this claim has been made about every MMo that has come out since WoW and no one has lived up to the hype