What would it take for you to switch to Linux?

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SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
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Linux would have to have a bigger presence in the world of corporate/business desktops. I can't justify taking the time to learn Linux on the desktop if it isn't a marketable skill - there's too much else to learn. I do use Linux for some server apps, though - I'm a big fan of LIO-Target.

That and the gaming thing.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
Linux would have to have a bigger presence in the world of corporate/business desktops. I can't justify taking the time to learn Linux on the desktop if it isn't a marketable skill - there's too much else to learn. I do use Linux for some server apps, though - I'm a big fan of LIO-Target.

That's a chicken/egg problem. Corporate desktops won't happen until the people who support them are more comfortable with them and that's not going to happen if people like you are just waiting for other people to look at them.
 

kalrith

Diamond Member
Aug 22, 2005
6,628
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81
I looked into using it with MythTV for my HTPC, but decided to go with Windows 7 instead. I need Windows on my other two computers, and having Windows on the HTPC as well makes it easier to stream content from it to the other Windows.
 

SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
1,708
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
Linux would have to have a bigger presence in the world of corporate/business desktops. I can't justify taking the time to learn Linux on the desktop if it isn't a marketable skill - there's too much else to learn. I do use Linux for some server apps, though - I'm a big fan of LIO-Target.

That's a chicken/egg problem. Corporate desktops won't happen until the people who support them are more comfortable with them and that's not going to happen if people like you are just waiting for other people to look at them.

Its more like this:

Me: "Big Boss, I would like to replace your Windows desktop with a Linux desktop."
Big Boss: "Why? What about my Outlook??"
Me: "????"

Linux just isn't there. Show me something in the Linux world that competes with Group Policy and other Windows management tools. Show me something that works as well as Outlook/Exchange. Show me a source of cheap Linux desktop support techs. Even if we did use 100% free software - Ubuntu, OpenOffice, etc. our gains would be totally eaten up and destroyed by employee and training costs.

I'm happy to use Linux for many purposes in the server world, but its not marketable as a desktop OS except to a very narrow niche.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
Me: "Big Boss, I would like to replace your Windows desktop with a Linux desktop."
Big Boss: "Why? What about my Outlook??"
Me: "????"

I know, I've had those conversations before and if you're already invested in Exchange and AD then you're highly screwed unless you're looking at going to thin clients.

Linux just isn't there. Show me something in the Linux world that competes with Group Policy and other Windows management tools.

No GPO equivalent does indeed suck, hopefully RedHat or Novell will pick up that ball.

Show me something that works as well as Outlook/Exchange.

Outlook and Exchange are terrible, it's just that the competition of Notes or GroupWise are worse.

Show me a source of cheap Linux desktop support techs. Even if we did use 100% free software - Ubuntu, OpenOffice, etc. our gains would be totally eaten up and destroyed by employee and training costs.

Initially it would be kinda expensive, but basic training of things like Oo_Org and Ubuntu shouldn't be that bad, it's not like it's all written in Mandarin Chinese. Lots of people dealt with the training involved with XP->Vista and Office 2k3->2k7 which are similar in scope.
 

SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
1,708
0
0
Originally posted by: Nothinman
Show me something that works as well as Outlook/Exchange.

Outlook and Exchange are terrible, it's just that the competition of Notes or GroupWise are worse.

What competition is there to Outlook/Exchange on an Enterprise scale? Yes, things like Postfix and Sendmail can handle the volume, but can't touch the ease of use both from an admin side and a user side. Zimbra is probably the closest.

No GPO equivalent does indeed suck, hopefully RedHat or Novell will pick up that ball.

And it'll be years behind the MS equivalent in stability and features. Group policy has been around since the NT days.

Show me a source of cheap Linux desktop support techs. Even if we did use 100% free software - Ubuntu, OpenOffice, etc. our gains would be totally eaten up and destroyed by employee and training costs.

Initially it would be kinda expensive, but basic training of things like Oo_Org and Ubuntu shouldn't be that bad, it's not like it's all written in Mandarin Chinese. Lots of people dealt with the training involved with XP->Vista and Office 2k3->2k7 which are similar in scope.

OO isn't Office. Ever worked with a Admin Assistant on an Office problem? She's a power user and knows more about the product than anyone in IT. She's the one who will have a problem with OO and notice the missing features and the changes. She reports to the boss or someone equally important. IT would have to answer for why the Admin Assistant isn't as productive as she could be.

No one ever got fired for buying Microsoft...lol.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
What competition is there to Outlook/Exchange on an Enterprise scale? Yes, things like Postfix and Sendmail can handle the volume, but can't touch the ease of use both from an admin side and a user side. Zimbra is probably the closest.

As I said, Notes and Groupwise. I would like Zimbra to gain traction since it's probably a better option than the other two I just mentioned, but we'll have to wait a while to see how that pans out.

And it'll be years behind the MS equivalent in stability and features. Group policy has been around since the NT days.

Features, maybe since it's harder to control the 3rd party apps out there I don't even see how stability fits into it. Either the policy works or it doesn't in both cases. Even GPOs suck because they only apply to MS apps, for example you can't control FF or Opera with them.

OO isn't Office. Ever worked with a Admin Assistant on an Office problem? She's a power user and knows more about the product than anyone in IT. She's the one who will have a problem with OO and notice the missing features and the changes. She reports to the boss or someone equally important. IT would have to answer for why the Admin Assistant isn't as productive as she could be.

I've helped plenty of secretaries with Office over the years and they're far from power users. They know how to use the small set of things they do daily and that's about it. And, as I said, Office 2K3->2k7 was a bigger change than going from Office to Oo_Org so it's a non-argument. Obviously places are willing to retrain and deal with absolutely huge differences between versions of software.
 

SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
1,708
0
0
Originally posted by: Nothinman
What competition is there to Outlook/Exchange on an Enterprise scale? Yes, things like Postfix and Sendmail can handle the volume, but can't touch the ease of use both from an admin side and a user side. Zimbra is probably the closest.

As I said, Notes and Groupwise. I would like Zimbra to gain traction since it's probably a better option than the other two I just mentioned, but we'll have to wait a while to see how that pans out.

Zimbra is a good product but its still generations behind Exchange. Its going to take a lot for Zimbra to steal market share from Exchange, since MS offers good pricing and features in SBS and EBS.

And it'll be years behind the MS equivalent in stability and features. Group policy has been around since the NT days.

Features, maybe since it's harder to control the 3rd party apps out there I don't even see how stability fits into it. Either the policy works or it doesn't in both cases. Even GPOs suck because they only apply to MS apps, for example you can't control FF or Opera with them.

You can create ADM templates for just about anything. I think someone has actually written a FireFox ADM that's fairly complete. Scripting covers everything else and its very easy to get scripts to run on whatever subset of machines or users that you want.

Yeah you could do all this on Ubuntu, but is it easy?

OO isn't Office. Ever worked with a Admin Assistant on an Office problem? She's a power user and knows more about the product than anyone in IT. She's the one who will have a problem with OO and notice the missing features and the changes. She reports to the boss or someone equally important. IT would have to answer for why the Admin Assistant isn't as productive as she could be.

I've helped plenty of secretaries with Office over the years and they're far from power users. They know how to use the small set of things they do daily and that's about it. And, as I said, Office 2K3->2k7 was a bigger change than going from Office to Oo_Org so it's a non-argument. Obviously places are willing to retrain and deal with absolutely huge differences between versions of software.

**shrugs** There isn't any small set of things to do when you're the admin assistant for a scientific PI and are expected to help him cite and write his papers, help him prepare exams, create presentations, etc. That's the typical admin assistant where I'm at. Admin assistants for other higher up/intellectual type people are just as good. They have to be.

Really, if you want to sell Linux on the desktop, you have to show that it reduces TCO. Not seeing it.
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
Gaming is the only thing keeping me on Windows. If Microsoft succeeds in killing off PC Gaming, I will buy games for my PS3 and remove Windows for good. I dual boot at home and use a commercial Unix distro at work.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
60,185
10,654
126
Originally posted by: Nothinman
Linux would have to have a bigger presence in the world of corporate/business desktops. I can't justify taking the time to learn Linux on the desktop if it isn't a marketable skill - there's too much else to learn. I do use Linux for some server apps, though - I'm a big fan of LIO-Target.

That's a chicken/egg problem. Corporate desktops won't happen until the people who support them are more comfortable with them and that's not going to happen if people like you are just waiting for other people to look at them.

I link Linux could really shine in the small business office. The needs aren't so extravagant, and people could help train each other due to the small size. The business makes out by not having to buy expensive licenses for O/Ss, servers, and productivity software.
 

Nothinman

Elite Member
Sep 14, 2001
30,672
0
0
Zimbra is a good product but its still generations behind Exchange. Its going to take a lot for Zimbra to steal market share from Exchange, since MS offers good pricing and features in SBS and EBS.

What's missing? I honestly haven't looked at it very closely.

You can create ADM templates for just about anything. I think someone has actually written a FireFox ADM that's fairly complete. Scripting covers everything else and its very easy to get scripts to run on whatever subset of machines or users that you want.

Yeah you could do all this on Ubuntu, but is it easy?

If you've got to write scripts to handle everything else then it's just as difficult, probably moreso because VBScript/JScript aren't as easy to work with as bash, perl or python.

**shrugs** There isn't any small set of things to do when you're the admin assistant for a scientific PI and are expected to help him cite and write his papers, help him prepare exams, create presentations, etc. That's the typical admin assistant where I'm at. Admin assistants for other higher up/intellectual type people are just as good. They have to be.

Well my experience with them is pretty different. Some of them were really good but most were just following instructions left by someone else. And really, in either case a transition shouldn't be terrible because if they're really that smart they should pickup the new methods quickly and if they're not and are just following directions they just have to remember to use the new post-it instead of thet old.

And none of that refutes the fact that many places have already gone through at least 1 major transition in Office 2k3->2k7. Everyone who upgraded pretty much had to learn everything from scratch once and they were willing to spend the time on it and they survived.

I link Linux could really shine in the small business office. The needs aren't so extravagant, and people could help train each other due to the small size. The business makes out by not having to buy expensive licenses for O/Ss, servers, and productivity software.

Especially since most of them outsource the major work to other companies already. If those IT service companies would start getting into and pushing Linux we could see a lot of SBS servers cease to exist.

A development platform that's even remotely comparable to the .NET framework. And don't say Mono, just don't.

Do you mean you want something comparable to .Net or Visual Studio? Because the former is Mono whether you like it or not.
 

SammyJr

Golden Member
Feb 27, 2008
1,708
0
0
Originally posted by: Nothinman
Zimbra is a good product but its still generations behind Exchange. Its going to take a lot for Zimbra to steal market share from Exchange, since MS offers good pricing and features in SBS and EBS.

What's missing? I honestly haven't looked at it very closely.

From a client side, Zimbra looks pretty comparable. The web client looks pretty nice - AJAX based, comparable to Exchange 2007. I don't know how well the Outlook integration is (this is essential for Enterprise) or how well the mobile push capabilities work, though.

On the server side, Exchange is generations ahead. Zimbra supports clustering via Redhat clustering. You have to configure your own backing store. You'd have to set up MySQL replication, DRBD replication or SAN replication, etc. CCR clustering on Exchange 2007 is much easier to set up and handles all the replication for you. 2010 introduces DAG which allows more than 2 servers in a replication group. There's a lot less to break. Configurations are more consistent, meaning that people have the same types of problems which equals more shared solutions. All operations in Exchange 2007 and up are based on PowerShell applets, making scripting everything and anything very easy.

Exchange is also getting features enabling companies to use a mix of hosted and server-based Exchange.

Could you make Zimbra comparable to a enterprise level Exchange 2007 installation? Probably. Would it be easy or cheaper? Not a chance.

You can create ADM templates for just about anything. I think someone has actually written a FireFox ADM that's fairly complete. Scripting covers everything else and its very easy to get scripts to run on whatever subset of machines or users that you want.

Yeah you could do all this on Ubuntu, but is it easy?

If you've got to write scripts to handle everything else then it's just as difficult, probably moreso because VBScript/JScript aren't as easy to work with as bash, perl or python.

You don't have to write scripts to handle everything, just stuff that's more custom.

VBScript is trivial and there's about a billion sample code snippets on the web. Bash syntax, while not too difficult, is mind boggling compared to VBScript.

Don't like VBScript, then use AutoIT. Both are easy as pie and extremely powerful in their own ways. PowerShell is even better, although its still evolving in a lot of ways.

Have you ever done any admin type scripting on Windows?

**shrugs** There isn't any small set of things to do when you're the admin assistant for a scientific PI and are expected to help him cite and write his papers, help him prepare exams, create presentations, etc. That's the typical admin assistant where I'm at. Admin assistants for other higher up/intellectual type people are just as good. They have to be.

Well my experience with them is pretty different. Some of them were really good but most were just following instructions left by someone else. And really, in either case a transition shouldn't be terrible because if they're really that smart they should pickup the new methods quickly and if they're not and are just following directions they just have to remember to use the new post-it instead of thet old.

And none of that refutes the fact that many places have already gone through at least 1 major transition in Office 2k3->2k7. Everyone who upgraded pretty much had to learn everything from scratch once and they were willing to spend the time on it and they survived.

Different expectations of employees, I guess. Our admin assistants have to be sharp and self motivated or they don't last.

I link Linux could really shine in the small business office. The needs aren't so extravagant, and people could help train each other due to the small size. The business makes out by not having to buy expensive licenses for O/Ss, servers, and productivity software.

Especially since most of them outsource the major work to other companies already. If those IT service companies would start getting into and pushing Linux we could see a lot of SBS servers cease to exist.

Not mine, but I'll comment. Why would an IT service company push Linux? What is making a Linux solution more compelling than a Windows SBS or EBS solution?

IT Service companies are a business, selling to another business. They have to make an effective case. Will Linux save them money? Why? Will it decrease TCO over the lifetime of the hardware?