What would it take for you to support an armed revolution?

[Agent11]

I've only seen the movie. The book worth reading?

The book was much better than the movie. David Brin is the author, his uplift series is pretty good too.

 

[JulesMaximus]

When Pigs fly.

:thumbsup: Pretty much this.

 

[sandorski]

Unless a State decides to Secede, I really doubt there would be anything like a Civil War. Any Civilian Group that attempts it would simply be seen as Terrorists and any momentum it may have had would come to a full stop.

 

[nanette1985]

A really cool uniform. With, like an awesome black T-shirt with a winged skull on it and skinny black jeans with skulls and stuff on them. Black and olive drab Vans skaters and free tattoos too. I was thinking maybe a cool hat, but there's no such thing as a cool hat, so just cool sunglasses instead.

Just a start. What it would take is a really great song.

On a serious note, I just saw my wacko brother at a family funeral - the brother who runs a militia group in NH. Since I was thinking about certain threads and topics here at ATPN, I asked him how the revolution business is going. He points out that there is no dynamic and intelligent leader - though there are lots of (as he calls them) loser bozo's.

 

[raildogg]

People will still be the same people even if a revolution occurs. Therefore, they will revert to the same ways of doing things. So why bother with it?

 

[gevorg]

Nothing, the American government is way too powerful for any internal revolts. Just look at Occupy Wall Street movement, its a joke. Revolutions can happen only in weak third world countries like Egypt and Libya... with a little help.

 

[chucky2]

You know, I think you're wrong there gevorg. I think it really depends on the manner in which the revolt happens. The problems with Occupy were really twofold:

1.) There was/is no where near bad enough real conditions for The People to be sufficiently riled up to swell the Occupy movement numbers to a real critical mass.

2.) Occupy really went about their protesting in the wrong way. The problem is, they really played by the rules far too much. They should have done something meaningful and mass rushed Wall Street - not to do physical harm, but to send a real in your face message. Example: You've got Wall Street folks laughing and taking pictures of the Occupy people from up above in their safe perch. Bet they wouldn't have been laughing when 20 Occupy people were in their office alone with them yelling in their face.

It's not that the Gov is too powerful, it's really The People are too complacent.

Chuck

 

[irishScott]

I could list a bunch of specifics, but they could all be summed up as "if we turn into a police state and effectively suspend democracy."

Meaning some combination of widespread and severe gun confiscations (meaning they affect virtually all gun owners, which is about half the country), invasions of privacy, illegitimate searches and seizures, etc.

In all cases, said causes would have to be unrealistically extreme. Like V-For-Vendetta, rise of Nazi Germany extreme. We're nowhere near the point where I'd support an armed revolution.

 

[irishScott]

Nothing, the American government is way too powerful for any internal revolts. Just look at Occupy Wall Street movement, its a joke. Revolutions can happen only in weak third world countries like Egypt and Libya... with a little help.

You think OWS was a revolt? Lol. It was a (largely) peaceful mass protest of hipsters and neo-hippies. Big difference.

 

[irishScott]

People will still be the same people even if a revolution occurs. Therefore, they will revert to the same ways of doing things. So why bother with it?

Because a few centuries of freedom in between bouts of tyranny is a good thing.

 

[randomrogue]

Nothing, the American government is way too powerful for any internal revolts. Just look at Occupy Wall Street movement, its a joke. Revolutions can happen only in weak third world countries like Egypt and Libya... with a little help.

OWS was smelly homeless people whining about stupid shit. That's not a good example.

Why would we revolt?

To change our political system? Into what? I mean i can't imagine us changing into something that exists today. So until you get a really smart leader who can articulate a better system there will be no revolt of this kind and I think that if it was to happen it would be peaceful.

I suppose you could argue that we want to revolt to go back to what we perceive to be the system we intended ours to be. However nothing has changed. We're always whining about the end of the world and how terrible everything is becoming.

 

[irishScott]

OWS was smelly homeless people whining about stupid shit. That's not a good example.

Why would we revolt?

To change our political system? Into what? I mean i can't imagine us changing into something that exists today. So until you get a really smart leader who can articulate a better system there will be no revolt of this kind and I think that if it was to happen it would be peaceful.

I suppose you could argue that we want to revolt to go back to what we perceive to be the system we intended ours to be. However nothing has changed. We're always whining about the end of the world and how terrible everything is becoming.

Pretty much. Remember part of the genius of our democracy is that there are mechanisms for governmental change at the will of the people. Granted they've never functioned perfectly (many politicians being corrupt, bought-out douche-bags and whatnot) but they do function. Before modern democracy, if often required a violent revolution to get done what we can do with a couple rounds of voting.

Hell just think about our founding revolution. It was started, in large part, over fucking taxes. Can you imagine fighting a war over taxes nowadays?

Thus, for an armed revolution of any significance to form our democratic mechanisms have to cease functioning. Because up until that point (or points, as such a transition would likely take decades) the government is still deriving its power, however filtered, from the consent of the people.

 

[randomrogue]

Honestly if we just put term limits on Congress we'd probably have a pretty sweet system. The Supreme Court has a very slow and steady swing to it. Our laws don't go through drastic changes and can always be overturned if we don't like them. Our President never gets enough power to be a problem for more than 8 years. It's Congress that needs a small adjustment.

 

[Agent11]

I'm against term limits, I like my senator and my congressman. I would rather there be redistricting reform, take it away from the state legislature and give it to the state supreme court.

They have to have at least the air of impartiality and so would not be able to so blatantly rig the system.

 

[randomrogue]

I'm against term limits, I like my senator and my congressman. I would rather there be redistricting reform, take it away from the state legislature and give it to the state supreme court.

They have to have at least the air of impartiality and so would not be able to so blatantly rig the system.

You can like the next one too.

 

[mikeymikec]

Take away our American idol, Jersey shore, Dancing with the Stars, celebrity gossip, I-phone , and of course P&N, force us to deal with the reality of our situation and watch a revolution ensue.

Probably the most accurate assessment of the situation I expect to see on this thread

Hussein Obama getting a second term.

Truly spoken like someone who has lived in a country that actually has a dictatorship.

Coming to the hard realization that there is absolutely NO difference between the two parties in power.
No matter which is in control, they profit, we don't.

You are taking part if you make your voice heard. Every person who lobbies their local representative is taking part.

Every person who says/thinks "oh, they're in control, they're not interested in us, what's the point anyway" is just helping "them" take control.

 

[Doppel]

I could list a bunch of specifics, but they could all be summed up as "if we turn into a police state and effectively suspend democracy."

Meaning some combination of widespread and severe gun confiscations (meaning they affect virtually all gun owners, which is about half the country), invasions of privacy, illegitimate searches and seizures, etc.

In all cases, said causes would have to be unrealistically extreme. Like V-For-Vendetta, rise of Nazi Germany extreme. We're nowhere near the point where I'd support an armed revolution.

The thing is, security loss is death by a thousand cuts, boiling a frog, etc. It's very easy for all of us to say that if our society went from what it is now to papers comrade, trips to the showers, and free trips in box cars we'd all rise up, but that's not how it happens. It happens slowly, the population gets acclimated to ever-changing and more burdensome security and privacy and freedom violations and then before you know it you're simply watching your neighbor get carted off with his kids to a camp and your only reaction is "Damn, I'm glad it's not me." I think any country would be lucky to have a dictatorship come in fast and hard so that it can't catch them off guard, but that doesn't appear to be how they work.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I think people ought to post on Facebook all the bad things they feel about their employers.

 

[Acanthus]

a substantial breakdown of a functioning government.

Details:
Cities that can't afford police forces
Cities with extended periods of blackouts
Lack of access to food/water, either due to bad economy or shortages
Any provision of the bill of rights revoked

 

[Acanthus]

OWS was smelly homeless people whining about stupid shit. That's not a good example.

Why would we revolt?

To change our political system? Into what? I mean i can't imagine us changing into something that exists today. So until you get a really smart leader who can articulate a better system there will be no revolt of this kind and I think that if it was to happen it would be peaceful.

I suppose you could argue that we want to revolt to go back to what we perceive to be the system we intended ours to be. However nothing has changed. We're always whining about the end of the world and how terrible everything is becoming.

Think the French Revolution... that is probably the direction the US is headed in the long run if the class divide continues to widen.

From Wikipedia:

Necker realized that the country's extremely regressive tax system subjected the lower classes to a heavy burden, while numerous exemptions existed for the nobility and clergy. He argued that the country could not be taxed higher; that tax exemptions for the nobility and clergy must be reduced; and proposed that borrowing more money would solve the country's fiscal shortages. Necker published a report to support this claim that underestimated the deficit by roughly 36 million livres, and proposed restricting the power of the parlements.

Sound familiar?

In a society where a small few get all of the benefits of organized society, the people eventually get up of their low living standards and being taken advantage of (or feeling that way).

Then you wind up with heads rolling in the streets.

 

[randomrogue]

Think the French Revolution... that is probably the direction the US is headed in the long run if the class divide continues to widen.

From Wikipedia:



Sound familiar?

In a society where a small few get all of the benefits of organized society, the people eventually get up of their low living standards and being taken advantage of (or feeling that way).

Then you wind up with heads rolling in the streets.

I used to think that but even now with me living in Europe and getting tons of benefits for my tax dollars my American friends just shrug their shoulders as they work 50 weeks a year and say "America, Fuck Yeah!"

 

[Acanthus]

I used to think that but even now with me living in Europe and getting tons of benefits for my tax dollars my American friends just shrug their shoulders as they work 50 weeks a year and say "America, Fuck Yeah!"

Sentiment is getting worse as time goes on.

Median incomes are falling and hours worked are rising.

We will see i guess.

 

[actuarial]

I could list a bunch of specifics, but they could all be summed up as "if we turn into a police state and effectively suspend democracy."

Meaning some combination of widespread and severe gun confiscations (meaning they affect virtually all gun owners, which is about half the country), invasions of privacy, illegitimate searches and seizures, etc.

In all cases, said causes would have to be unrealistically extreme. Like V-For-Vendetta, rise of Nazi Germany extreme. We're nowhere near the point where I'd support an armed revolution.

While I agree that it would take an effective suspension of democracy, I disagree with you on what constitute's a suspension of democracy.

If they start rounding up guns, increasing police powers etc. those things can all be reversed. And if the people continue to vote in politicians who support the changes, that Is still democracy.

It ceases to be democracy when anything at all happens to political dissidents, there are drastic increases to term limits, or it's shown the ruling party got there by circumventing the democratic process.

 

[randomrogue]

Sentiment is getting worse as time goes on.

Median incomes are falling and hours worked are rising.

We will see i guess.

I suppose. I've moved back and forth and back and forth for work, school, growing up, etc. It used to be so clear that living in the States provided a higher standard of living. Today I can't come up with a single one that's relevant to my life.

I pay less taxes here. I get 3x as much vacation and then have the option to take many more weeks of non-paid vacation. Even with raised costs my health care is capped at something silly like $150 a year. Prescription medication is capped at about the same. Mass transit is like $1000 a year. Housing is cheaper and there are many options to buy small homes which makes it even cheaper. Education is pretty much free. Daycare is about $1000 a year. Retirement is covered at about 80% of your income. Salaries would be lower but because the dollar is so weak you can make a killing over here. If you own your own business you'll make more in the States generally speaking though.

Why in the world would I go back to the States? Weather? I could move to Southern Portugal I suppose if I want San Diego weather. I have family that did that. Otherwise the weather is pretty much like the Northern USA. A bit warmer during the winter due to the gulf stream. I guess I could justify it with the cheap cost of goods. The USA has dirt cheap goods. I buy all my electronics there and bring them here with power adapters. This is mostly due to them having high sales tax and us being able to avoid paying sales tax in the states though. Better jobs? It's not so much that they're better but one thing I have found is that there are more better jobs in the States. If there are 2,000 positions here I could move to Silicon Valley and have 30,000 positions. Maybe not now though. A better College education? Well this one I definitely took advantage of so I mention for the benefit of others. While our High School system is a giant joke getting a University Degree in the States is by far better.

Eventually Americans are going to figure out that the rest of the world isn't like Greece and that they're getting hosed. My poor friends are destined to work their whole lives with 2 weeks of vacation while spending $2000 a month on daycare for their two kids. $800 a month on car, gas, insurance. Tons on a mortgage that is upside down. Rising healthcare premiums. Saving 3% of their income. What a shitty life. I think I'll go buy half a dozen Ryan Air tickets to different parts of the continent for some weekend getaways this year to mourn their lives.

 

[manimal]

I love the smell of fear mongering in the morning. Smells like victory.