What would it take for Bush-supporter to switch sides?

[Jhhnn]

LMK's reply exemplifies more of the same need to re-evaluate.

The SS/medicare debt is like 30Trillion. Sucks if you start you retirment in the 10-15 years.

SS and Medicare are separate programs, and the quoted figure is a misleading projection at some point in the distant future, 2075 or so... try again.

Left to the democrats and the UN, we will still be wondering what to do with Iraq and If they had WMD

Yep, and several hundred young Americans would be alive, and we'd be a few hundred billion richer. Iraq still wouldn't be a threat to anybody, and they weapons inspectors would still be on a snipe hunt. The Iraqis couldn't prove a negative, that they have no wmd's, it's a basic catch-22, anybody with a lick of sense knows that one.

Bush didn't have to sign up for the national guard, he had draft exemption already.

Pure disinformation- Dubya signed up immediately before his deferment ran out, like the very day or the day before. So much nicer to use Daddy's influence to get to play jet-jockey at home in Texas than to crawl around in some distant jungle muck where people are trying to kill you... hiding in the same hole with plebes from the Houston barrio and Detroit ghetto- very unbecoming for a rich whiteboy from a very prominent family...

It's all about belief, and the ability to shape the belief of large segments of the population to believe in fairytales and worse. Rabid Bush supporters are either the manipulators or their victims. The former require no internal reassessment, they know what they're doing, and the latter are apparently rendered incapable by the process...

 

[Red Dawn]

After Bush and his nefarious band of Neocons manipulated the American public by using the tragedy of 9/11 togarner our support for their excellent adventure in Iraq I couldn't with good conscious vote for them. They've proven to me that they are extremely deceitful or incompetent (probably both)

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Sudheer Anne
tallest1 I respect the way you approached this issue. I was fully expecting a flame fest by the looks of the thread titled, but you seem to have this debate under control for now.

Regardless of your partisanship, tallest1 is asking some very good questions here. Makes you really think about what you believe in, and why you support whoever it is you support.

I think too often in politics we get stuck arguing over incredibly silly, and assanine things. To be honest, I don't care if Bush dodged the draft, I would have done the same thing. The last thing I want to do is go out and fight a war I don't believe in. I think we should start arguing over things that matter, like policies and what the presidential candidates actually plan on doing if they were to win. Let's look towards the future, instead of constantly dwelling on past issues.

I mean people can and do change with time, and one person's actions many years ago doesn't have much of a bearing on who that person is nowadays. Take a reformed prison inmate for example. He committs murder, spends 20-30 years in prison and realizes his mistakes and devotes the rest of his life to reforming himself and helping others in situations like his. I think that after going through tough times, it makes a person that much stronger.

agreed, which makes bushes attacks on Kerry for "throwing away his ribbons" etc look even more ludicrous.

 

[heartsurgeon]

i would need to have 99.9% of my brain removed, then i might consider it.

 

[josphII]

Originally posted by: tallest1
I'm not going to bother reposting recent events that have happened in the past year or so in risk of showing super-bias but I have this honest to god question for the people who support Bush or know people who support do:

What exactly would it take for Bush supporter to not like Bush anymore? What is that core value that apparently hasn't been hit yet? In the past 4 years, America has seen more tragedy, scandals, secrecy, attacks on fundamental rights, half-truths, deaths and discrimination than in the past few decades and yet the polls are still around 50-50. How is this possible and what on earth is that key issue that keeps Bush-supporters so unwaivering?

Edit: typo

Edit: Question #2: What would it take for Kerry-supporters to want to re-elect President Bush?

firstly your statement "america has seen more tragedy, scandals, secrecy, attacks on fundamental rights, half-truths, deaths and discrimination" is just a crock. as far as my support for bush, its really support for the republican party, not necessarily bush himself. during the '00 campain i was hoping mccain would get the nomination but i think we all knew that wasnt going to happen. for me to vote democrat the democratic party would simply have to change some of their fundamental philosophies (sp?). specifically theyd have to change their views on the environment, taxes, education, gun rights, foreign policy, and personal responsibilty. they would have renouce support for affirmative action, and just about everything the aclu, and naacp stand for. when i vote republican i can count on pretty solid support on these issues and these happen to be the issues i care about the most. as far as issues where i lean left, ie abortion & separation of church and state, well i dont really think either side has much power to make changes on these issues.

 

[Spencer278]

The only way to get the neo-cons to switch sides is if bush replaced Cheny with hillary clinton as his runningmate.

 

[0roo0roo]

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0743260244/qid=1083447040/">Against All Enemies: Inside America's War on Terror
by Richard A. Clarke (Author) </a>

a republican which worked in national security for 30 yrs, says that even clinton did far more against terrorism then bush who plainly willfully ignored any problems he didn't feel were part of his "agenda".


<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/031600023X/qid=1083447145/">Worse Than Watergate: The Secret Presidency of George W. Bush
by John W. Dean (Author) </a>

scandle galore from another republican. and for things that matter, like insider trading, secrecy, obstruction of justice... from a guy that knows best about such evil.


The Lies of George W. Bush: Mastering the Politics of Deception


Bushwhacked : Life in George W. Bush's America

and his general shortcomings and lies galore.

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0525948139/qid=1083447324/">The President of Good and Evil: The Ethics of George W. Bush
by Peter Singer
</a>

an ethical look at well..the presidents lack of ethics.

Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right

and well this ones plain funny.


just look at him. this is a man that screams "bring it on"!! calling for attacks on our troops when he has never put his own neck on the line. and instead had used his fathers privilidge to take another mans spot in the guard. look at my sig if you think the guard of today is the guard of vietnam, it isn't. it was a place for the wealthy and powerful to hide their children. he couldn't even take that duty seriously and shirked it as much as he could. the rest of his band of thugs are no better, cheney? didnt give a sh*t and took multiple deferments, so did ascroft. all for a war they supported. and now they have the gall to attack kerry about the difference between medals and ribbons? for medals he EARNED no less... under fire, in units that suffered 75% casualty rates. talk about funny standards for character just as with bush and his talk of god. he talks of god pretty well, but what he did his life before the presidency, way way less then christian. not that it helps around the world where his constant god talk smacks of another tall saudi guy who doesn't like us very much. just replace each time he refers to god in his speech with "allah akhbar"(sp) and it gets a tad disconcerting.

and it all comes down to this. he ran as a uniter, not a divider. a bigger lie he could not have told. now anti americanism is rampant. not that their reasons are always right. but if all your friends are deserting you because of your g/f, its a pretty good indication she's a b*tch.

bushies god squad supporters are pretty much religious about it, what they see is a fantasy. faith trumps reason and reality. there is only hope for moderates.

like the moderate republican........kerry's wife who was for 30 yrs a moderate repub.

 

[nutxo]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0743260244/qid=1083447040/">Against All Enemies: Inside America's War on Terror
by Richard A. Clarke (Author) </a>

a republican which worked in national security for 30 yrs, says that even clinton did far more against terrorism then bush who plainly willfully ignored any problems he didn't feel were part of his "agenda".


<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/031600023X/qid=1083447145/">Worse Than Watergate: The Secret Presidency of George W. Bush
by John W. Dean (Author) </a>

The Lies of George W. Bush: Mastering the Politics of Deception

scandle galore from another republican. and for things that matter, like insider trading, secrecy, obstruction of justice... from a guy that knows best about such evil.

Bushwhacked : Life in George W. Bush's America

and his general shortcomings and lies galore.

<a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0525948139/qid=1083447324/">The President of Good and Evil: The Ethics of George W. Bush
by Peter Singer
</a>

an ethical look at well..the presidents lack of ethics.

Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right

and well this ones plain funny.


just look at him. this is a man that screams "bring it on"!! calling for attacks on our troops when he has never put his own neck on the line. and instead had used his fathers privilidge to take another mans spot in the guard. look at my sig if you think the guard of today is the guard of vietnam, it isn't. it was a place for the wealthy and powerful to hide their children. he couldn't even take that duty seriously and shirked it as much as he could. the rest of his band of thugs are no better, cheney? didnt give a sh*t and took multiple deferments, so did ascroft. all for a war they supported. and now they have the gall to attack kerry about the difference between medals and ribbons? for medals he EARNED no less... under fire, in units that suffered 75% casualty rates. talk about funny standards for character just as with bush and his talk of god. he talks of god pretty well, but what he did his life before the presidency, way way less then christian. not that it helps around the world where his constant god talk smacks of another tall saudi guy who doesn't like us very much. just replace each time he refers to god in his speech with "allah akhbar"(sp) and it gets a tad disconcerting.

and it all comes down to this. he ran as a uniter, not a divider. a bigger lie he could not have told. now anti americanism is rampant. not that their reasons are always right. but if all your friends are deserting you because of your g/f, its a pretty good indication she's a b*tch.

bushies god squad supporters are pretty much religious about it, what they see is a fantasy. faith trumps reason and reality. there is only hope for moderates.

like the moderate republican........kerry's wife who was for 30 yrs a moderate repub.

nice rant


*cookie*

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: tallest1
In the past 4 years, America has seen more tragedy, scandals, secrecy, attacks on fundamental rights, half-truths, deaths and discrimination than in the past few decades and yet the polls are still around 50-50.

Please give an example of each.

 

[myusername]

Originally posted by: tallest1

***** What would it take for Kerry-supporters to want to re-elect President Bush? *****
For me, I would vote for Bush if Kerry focused on domestic issues no more than Bush does (hint: not much) and if Kerry decided not to seek out international cooperation and unity, I would change my vote only so that Bush could see the repurcussions of his actions.

I think the key thing for me, as a future Kerry voter, is that Bush and his administration have proven themselves to be exceedingly duplicitous. Consequently, there is nothing that Bush could do or say that would allow me to trust his intentions, and the best a neo-con could hope for, from me, is staying away from the polls altogether. That, of course, would require egregious behavior on the part of Kerry - to the extent that I view his presidency as more threatening than the current one.

If Kerry came out in support of the Patriot Act, the RIAA, the war in Iraq, Creationism in schools, Corporate Welfare, eliminating Social Welfare, Laws banning Homosexuality and/or Homosexual Marriage, Fraudulent Government Sponsored Science, and Anti-Abortion Legislation .. well then I might have to consider that he might not be a suitable alternative to Bush. You would have to go much farther than that to prove that Kerry was worse than Bush. That might even be impossible, since I suspect that even if Kerry proposed any of the above, he would probably be able to explain - coherently and at length - why he thought as he did on a particular issue. Bush, OTOH, very obviously has velcro-closures on his shoes.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: tallest1
In the past 4 years, America has seen more tragedy, scandals, secrecy, attacks on fundamental rights, half-truths, deaths and discrimination than in the past few decades and yet the polls are still around 50-50.

Please give an example of each.

He's probably referring to 9/11, the ignoring of scientific reports, the law he changed so that presidential documents wouldn't be made public after 30 years (or whatever), the Patriot Act, WMDs, Iraq, and gay marriage.

Note that I'm not a democrat or a republican, I could make a similar list for Clinton (How come no one mentions all those cruise missles he was launching during his presidency?)

Originally posted by: Spencer278
The only way to get the neo-cons to switch sides is if bush replaced Cheny with hillary clinton as his runningmate.

I'd vote for Satan himself before Hillary *shudder*

 

[Mean MrMustard]

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain

Originally posted by: Achtung

Originally posted by: Passions
Show me how Bush is a coward and a liar, and I'll switch.

Which regiment was he a part of in Vietnam again?

Where are the weapons he said Iraq had?

How many men died when john Kerry encouraged Americans not to support their troupes in Vietnam?

How much special interest money did john Kerry take after say "I?ve never taken any special interest money"?

Going to collage bush didn't even have to be in the American national guard to not have to go to Vietnam, and john Kerry, bill Clinton, and the rest of the group up on capital hill said Iraq had WMDs. Being mistaken isn't the same as being a liar.

So, once again, how is bush a liar and a coward?

Yes, but who sent us to war over being "mistaken"? He said he had proof. I don't think the word "mistaken" is the correct word for this.

Let's say he was "mistaken". Why wouldn't he come out and say it? He didn't lie so he has nothing to worry about, right? What's wrong with this?

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: tallest1
I'm not going to bother reposting recent events that have happened in the past year or so in risk of showing super-bias but I have this honest to god question for the people who support Bush or know people who support do:

What exactly would it take for Bush supporter to not like Bush anymore? What is that core value that apparently hasn't been hit yet? In the past 4 years, America has seen more tragedy, scandals, secrecy, attacks on fundamental rights, half-truths, deaths and discrimination than in the past few decades and yet the polls are still around 50-50. How is this possible and what on earth is that key issue that keeps Bush-supporters so unwaivering?

Edit: typo

Edit: Question #2: What would it take for Kerry-supporters to want to re-elect President Bush?

I'm not really a big Kerry supporter, but there is no way Bush could get me to vote for him.

 

[Gaard]

"There is no doubt."

 

[mtbaird]

Originally posted by: ELP

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain

Originally posted by: Achtung

Originally posted by: Passions
Show me how Bush is a coward and a liar, and I'll switch.

Which regiment was he a part of in Vietnam again?

Where are the weapons he said Iraq had?

How many men died when john Kerry encouraged Americans not to support their troupes in Vietnam?

How much special interest money did john Kerry take after say "I?ve never taken any special interest money"?

Going to collage bush didn't even have to be in the American national guard to not have to go to Vietnam, and john Kerry, bill Clinton, and the rest of the group up on capital hill said Iraq had WMDs. Being mistaken isn't the same as being a liar.

So, once again, how is bush a liar and a coward?

Yes, but who sent us to war over being "mistaken"? He said he had proof. I don't the work "mistaken" is the correct word for this.

Let's say he was "mistaken". Why wouldn't he come out and say it? He didn't lie so he has nothing to worry about, right? What's wrong with this?

he did come out and say it and is in the process of creating a comitee to investigate the breakdown of intelligence.

its our Intelligence agencies fault. they gave him the wrong information.

if its anyones fault its the intelligence, but also anyone who voted for the war has something to do with it

 

[Staples]

Republicans love to attack Kerry on issues that are not improtant to me.

When they come up with a real issue, I might vote for Ralph Nader. I don't think I could ever defect to Bush because he has done such an awful job as president.

 

[LordMagnusKain]

Originally posted by: ELP

Originally posted by: LordMagnusKain

Originally posted by: Achtung

Originally posted by: Passions
Show me how Bush is a coward and a liar, and I'll switch.

Which regiment was he a part of in Vietnam again?

Where are the weapons he said Iraq had?

How many men died when john Kerry encouraged Americans not to support their troupes in Vietnam?

How much special interest money did john Kerry take after say "I?ve never taken any special interest money"?

Going to collage bush didn't even have to be in the American national guard to not have to go to Vietnam, and john Kerry, bill Clinton, and the rest of the group up on capital hill said Iraq had WMDs. Being mistaken isn't the same as being a liar.

So, once again, how is bush a liar and a coward?

Yes, but who sent us to war over being "mistaken"? He said he had proof. I don't the work "mistaken" is the correct word for this.

Let's say he was "mistaken". Why wouldn't he come out and say it? He didn't lie so he has nothing to worry about, right? What's wrong with this?

The US Senate, it's the role of the senate to decide what wars to fight and not to fight: not the presidents.

It's the Senate that authorized this war, John Kerry being one of those in the senate that voted for it, Joe Lieberman being another.

Why wouldn't he come out and say it? He didn't lie so he has nothing to worry about, right? What's wrong with this?

Sounds like a partisan criticism designed singularly to try and sway the emotional argument, like calling for bush to say he was ?sorry for failing the country on 911?.

Many of the 'ruling council' of Iraq have been assassinated; many former scientists have been executed. Fact his Bush doesn't know what happened, nor do any of us know if he actually was mistaken, all we can say for sure is we've yet to find any WMDs.

For what it?s worth it looks like Iraqi scientists lied to S.H. himself about their WMD programs? if the ruler of a country doesn?t even know what his money is going to: what makes you expect that the ruler of ours would?

Intentional deception certainly wasn?t the intent.

 

[Gaard]

It's the Senate that authorized this war

I believe you are mistaken.

nor do any of us know if he actually was mistaken

About what? Whether Iraq had WMD, or whether there was 'no doubt' that Iraq had WMD, or whether he knew 'for a fact' that Iraq had WMD?

For what it?s worth it looks like Iraqi scientists lied to S.H. himself about their WMD programs

Maybe they were just mistaken.

Intentional deception certainly wasn?t the intent.

I believe you are mistaken, again.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yep, LMK, all we can say is that we haven't found sasquatch, either... but I'm sure that somebody, somewhere has the proof, and that they'll keep looking...

The intent to deceive is obvious, from using reports known to be fictitious to claiming links to al qaeda where none existed to the obvious exaggeration of Iraqi cbw capabilities and the significance of such, even if they had existed.

But now, of course, it's all about Iraqi Freedom and spreading democracy, and always was, dontcha know?

Gimme a break- it's high time to simply admit that it was easily the most significant foreign policy blunder of the modern era, even moreso than Vietnam. It was also quite deliberate, and executed over the objections of folks who knew better. Dubya up and punched the tarbaby. To reward such reckless and irresponsible behavior and manipulation of the will of the People with a second term would be stupid in ways too profound to even contemplate.

Unless, of course, you're part of the ultra-fundie effort to bring on armageddon, in which case more of the same would seem altogether righteous...

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Gaard

It's the Senate that authorized this war

I believe you are mistaken.

You're right - it was a JOINT RESOLUTION. Both the Senate and the House authorized the use of force against Saddam.

nor do any of us know if he actually was mistaken

About what? Whether Iraq had WMD, or whether there was 'no doubt' that Iraq had WMD, or whether he knew 'for a fact' that Iraq had WMD?

Are you suggesting Saddam didn't have WMDs?

For what it?s worth it looks like Iraqi scientists lied to S.H. himself about their WMD programs

Maybe they were just mistaken.

maybe they were. Some were killed so we may never know.

Intentional deception certainly wasn?t the intent.

I believe you are mistaken, again.

I believe he isn't mistaken, again.

CkG

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Achtung

Originally posted by: Passions
Show me how Bush is a coward and a liar, and I'll switch.

Which regiment was he a part of in Vietnam again?

Which one were you in?

Where are the weapons he said Iraq had?

You mean the weapons that everyone else also said he had?

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn


The intent to deceive is obvious.

...

I guess for you to feel this so passionately you would have to have been deceived yourself, I mean for it to be so obvious...

How does it feel to be so fvcking stupid to get deceived in the first place? I mean,, uhh,, given the vast amount of knowledge you profess to have on the subject?

 

[Jhhnn]

How does it feel to be so fvcking stupid to get deceived in the first place?

Dunno, Ozoned- I've never believed anything Dubya ever said. Might want to ask yourself that particular question, if you think you can handle the answer.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn

How does it feel to be so fvcking stupid to get deceived in the first place?

Dunno, Ozoned- I've never believed anything Dubya ever said. Might want to ask yourself that particular question, if you think you can handle the answer.

The intent to deceive is obvious,

That is what you posted, jhhnn..

Bush didn't deceive me, he deceived you...

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: Jhhnn

How does it feel to be so fvcking stupid to get deceived in the first place?

Dunno, Ozoned- I've never believed anything Dubya ever said. Might want to ask yourself that particular question, if you think you can handle the answer.

The intent to deceive is obvious,

That is what you posted, jhhnn..

Bush didn't deceive me, he deceived you...

You knew he was lying from the beginning yet you still supported his excellent adventure in Iraq?