Honestly, I do not see abortion as part of either side's ideologies, or at least shouldn't be, because I know it is put as a leftist thing. Considering "liberals" are generally over-concerned(according to some, I guess) with protecting individuals and their rights, it is hard to believe that liberals can honestly support abortion.(since abortion has two individuals in the process, but only one is being protected)
I've always seen abortion more as a left vs. right issue than a democrat vs. republican issue and given that the 2 major parties have shifted right-wards over the years, I don't find the disgust over abortion rights all too surprising. I do however find surprising the admin policies here and there that are most blatantly liberal. It makes Bush more confusing than moderate in my eyes. But lets say Bush decided to turn the tables a bit more and go in support of abortion. Would that be the issue that throws public opinion out of balance and into the hands of Kerry?
How can you go wrong with a guy that talks with God? All he's got to do is say born again and I'm on board. God is everything. Voting for Bush is my ticket to heaven.
So. The man asked a question, I gave my answer. I know tall didnt want a flame thread, why not let people answer . Maybe save commentary for a second thread instead of arguing here. I think he actually wanted answers, not debate.
Siddhartha
Lifer
- Oct 17, 1999
- 12,505
- 3
- 81
From what I gather Bush supporters do not blame or give GWB any responibility for what has happened during his watch. They blame Muslims, Clinton, liberals, and\or GWB's advisors.
Its an evolution of the presidental blame game [in my opinion]. That if everyone had done what they were supposed to do, Bush's policies would've had a miraculous effect.
Hmm..... Given the ratio of bush-supporters and nonbush-supporters posting in here, I guess I should throw an additional question in here to keep the latter group from going into rant-land:
***** What would it take for Kerry-supporters to want to re-elect President Bush? *****
For me, I would vote for Bush if Kerry focused on domestic issues no more than Bush does (hint: not much) and if Kerry decided not to seek out international cooperation and unity, I would change my vote only so that Bush could see the repurcussions of his actions.
The main thing that really gets me about Bush is the fact that he's willing to ignore a VERY authoritative scientific report on climate change, just to suit his interests.
Here's my stance rundown.
Abortion: Pretty much a non-issue, since neither party is going to be able to do much about it. Anytime someone tries to pass a law a billion outraged pro-lifers/pro-choicers start protesting.
Economy: Basically, you get your choice between the Democrats bankrupting the treasury, and the Republicans selling the government to the rich through bonds.
Environment: Democrats win this one. I swear the Republicans want to cover the entire world in three feet of pavement.
Education: Haven't seen a good idea from either party on this one. Everyone agrees that we need to support education, but no one wants to PAY for it. All the teachers at the local school where I work think No Child Left Behind is a bunch of crap, but who knows if they're completely objective about it...
Religion: Honestly, I can't believe this comes up. First off, the Democrats need to shut up about how Bush is trying to force Christianity down the country's throat. Everyone has their belief system, and everyone is free to follow that system, doesn't matter who's in office. Bush hasn't done anything to restrict this. Second, the Republicans need to stop pretending Bush is divinely appointed. So he's a Christian, that doesn't make him a better president than someone who's not. And the Democrats aren't trying to destroy Christianity, either.
Personal freedoms: Well, the Patriot act is a big no-no in my book, but I guess it's gone now. Who knows, maybe it served a purpose...you'd think the Senate would have at least READ it before passing it blindly.
War: At the beginning I supported the war, but we sure bungled it. Add two to the list of countries that hate us, I guess...and there was so much potential, too, if we had pulled it off right both Afghanistan and Iraq would love us for deposing their tyrants. I think that Bush does all right at war, but no so well at foreign relations.
Right now I'm leaning towards Kerry, because as a scientist and conservationist I can't really support Bush's policies. But I'm not sold on either one.
Here's my stance rundown.
Abortion: Pretty much a non-issue, since neither party is going to be able to do much about it. Anytime someone tries to pass a law a billion outraged pro-lifers/pro-choicers start protesting.
Economy: Basically, you get your choice between the Democrats bankrupting the treasury, and the Republicans selling the government to the rich through bonds.
Environment: Democrats win this one. I swear the Republicans want to cover the entire world in three feet of pavement.
Education: Haven't seen a good idea from either party on this one. Everyone agrees that we need to support education, but no one wants to PAY for it. All the teachers at the local school where I work think No Child Left Behind is a bunch of crap, but who knows if they're completely objective about it...
Religion: Honestly, I can't believe this comes up. First off, the Democrats need to shut up about how Bush is trying to force Christianity down the country's throat. Everyone has their belief system, and everyone is free to follow that system, doesn't matter who's in office. Bush hasn't done anything to restrict this. Second, the Republicans need to stop pretending Bush is divinely appointed. So he's a Christian, that doesn't make him a better president than someone who's not. And the Democrats aren't trying to destroy Christianity, either.
Personal freedoms: Well, the Patriot act is a big no-no in my book, but I guess it's gone now. Who knows, maybe it served a purpose...you'd think the Senate would have at least READ it before passing it blindly.
War: At the beginning I supported the war, but we sure bungled it. Add two to the list of countries that hate us, I guess...and there was so much potential, too, if we had pulled it off right both Afghanistan and Iraq would love us for deposing their tyrants. I think that Bush does all right at war, but no so well at foreign relations.
Right now I'm leaning towards Kerry, because as a scientist and conservationist I can't really support Bush's policies. But I'm not sold on either one.
For me to vote for a democrat, they would have campaign plants that looked like:
I no particular order of importance
Capable of America first foreign policy. They would have to act in the best interests of our country first.
Asking the UN or other countries for policy is just not acceptable.
Social security reform. The current SS system is broke and needs to be fixed.
2nd amendment. A platform on gun ownership that goes beyond the right to hunt.
Tax reform. Current system is too complicated, it needs to be scrapped.
Spending. Lets hear about cutting excess spending. Neither party is getting passing grades here.
Education. Education system is broke and the status quo is not the answer.
Trade. Free trade is a good thing, prorectionism is usually not.
Economy. There have been problems with the economy, but lets talk about how much better america can be, rathar than "how bad things are now". be positive and optimistic.
Abortion. Most Americans would agree abortion on demand for any reason is not a good idea. Parental notification is good idea for minors. 3rd trimester is a bit too late to be making the abortion choice.
Enviroment: a reasonable energy policy that uses existing technology(coal,nuke, hydro) and expands new tech(wind, solar,...)
But what I just described is not a democrat.
I no particular order of importance
Capable of America first foreign policy. They would have to act in the best interests of our country first.
Asking the UN or other countries for policy is just not acceptable.
Social security reform. The current SS system is broke and needs to be fixed.
2nd amendment. A platform on gun ownership that goes beyond the right to hunt.
Tax reform. Current system is too complicated, it needs to be scrapped.
Spending. Lets hear about cutting excess spending. Neither party is getting passing grades here.
Education. Education system is broke and the status quo is not the answer.
Trade. Free trade is a good thing, prorectionism is usually not.
Economy. There have been problems with the economy, but lets talk about how much better america can be, rathar than "how bad things are now". be positive and optimistic.
Abortion. Most Americans would agree abortion on demand for any reason is not a good idea. Parental notification is good idea for minors. 3rd trimester is a bit too late to be making the abortion choice.
Enviroment: a reasonable energy policy that uses existing technology(coal,nuke, hydro) and expands new tech(wind, solar,...)
But what I just described is not a democrat.
He has to take a blood oath to never again have any communication whatsoever with Ted Kennedy.
Other than that Charrison has a pretty good list but I would add that I would like too see some sort of "revelation" wrt to Israel and the middle east.
Other than that Charrison has a pretty good list but I would add that I would like too see some sort of "revelation" wrt to Israel and the middle east.
CADsortaGUY
Lifer
To vote for Bush, I would need him to:
-Dump Ashcroft
-Don't even pretend to be messing with the Constitution by adding petty nonsense like a gay marriage ban. He doesn't have to like gay marriages, but don't be rediculous. I'm not going to love my wife less if the couple next door have a civil union and are the same sex.
-Stop acting like a 13-year-old girl with daddy's credit card. That's my money he's spending $2 million at a time promoting marriage.
-A longer-term energy policy (actually, not just rhetorically) than drilling for limited oil reserved in Alaska
I like a lot of things about Bush. He was good after 9/11 (excepting parts of the USA PATRIOT act), I agree with the Iraq war and think he's handled it about as well as it could have been, and a lot of little things I can accept, but those are the biggest ones for me.
-Dump Ashcroft
-Don't even pretend to be messing with the Constitution by adding petty nonsense like a gay marriage ban. He doesn't have to like gay marriages, but don't be rediculous. I'm not going to love my wife less if the couple next door have a civil union and are the same sex.
-Stop acting like a 13-year-old girl with daddy's credit card. That's my money he's spending $2 million at a time promoting marriage.
-A longer-term energy policy (actually, not just rhetorically) than drilling for limited oil reserved in Alaska
I like a lot of things about Bush. He was good after 9/11 (excepting parts of the USA PATRIOT act), I agree with the Iraq war and think he's handled it about as well as it could have been, and a lot of little things I can accept, but those are the biggest ones for me.
I'm not a Democrat, but I generally vote that way, and I agree with just about everything you've said. I think aside from the prominent wackjobs on either side, a lot of people do, Democrats and Republicans. Problem is, neither party is meeting those criterea. SS reform? No one's touching that with a 10-foot pole. Everyone wants to "fix" education, but really there's a limited amount we can do. We should keep experimenting and putting the maximum money possible into it, but nothing's really worked so far. Everyone says he's going to fix the energy problem, and no one does. The science really isn't here yet.
That's why I dislike a Rep. President, House and Senate with large margins. I'd also dislike a Democrat President and Congress. The country is more divided than it's been in decades idealistically, we don't need one side steering everything that way, whichever it may be.
Bush supporters won't change sides w/o a complete re-evaluation of their belief system, an unlikely event.
Take some of Charrison's statements of belief, for example-
Broke in what way? The system is completely solvent until ~2016, and solvent until ~2036, provided that the govt is in the financial position to pay back all the money borrowed since 1984. With Bush and a Republican Congress, that solvency seems unlikely. Boomers have paid in a lot more than has been paid out during that period of time, on the order of ~$1.4T- and now what? that was just another tax, and, uhh, too bad you're getting screwed?
Sounds good. How does the invasion of Iraq fit into this scenario? All of the given reasons proved false, and we're left only with the foolish notion of establishing Iraqi freedom, at the cost of $5B/mo, not to mention the casualties. How does this serve America? What's in it for us? What do we get other than dead and damaged young soldiers?
Let's talk about balance. Let's talk about huge deficits and massive tax cuts for the wealthy while reservists' families are going broke-
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-miller28apr28,1,4176224.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions
As I said, thoughtful re-evaluation seems unlikely. Bush's appeal exists on a more primal emotional level, one that really doesn't require any thought at all. He's a huckster, a conman, a barker for the far right circus of greed and bedazzlement.
Take some of Charrison's statements of belief, for example-
Broke in what way? The system is completely solvent until ~2016, and solvent until ~2036, provided that the govt is in the financial position to pay back all the money borrowed since 1984. With Bush and a Republican Congress, that solvency seems unlikely. Boomers have paid in a lot more than has been paid out during that period of time, on the order of ~$1.4T- and now what? that was just another tax, and, uhh, too bad you're getting screwed?
Sounds good. How does the invasion of Iraq fit into this scenario? All of the given reasons proved false, and we're left only with the foolish notion of establishing Iraqi freedom, at the cost of $5B/mo, not to mention the casualties. How does this serve America? What's in it for us? What do we get other than dead and damaged young soldiers?
Let's talk about balance. Let's talk about huge deficits and massive tax cuts for the wealthy while reservists' families are going broke-
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-miller28apr28,1,4176224.story?coll=la-news-comment-opinions
As I said, thoughtful re-evaluation seems unlikely. Bush's appeal exists on a more primal emotional level, one that really doesn't require any thought at all. He's a huckster, a conman, a barker for the far right circus of greed and bedazzlement.
What would it take for Bush-supporter to switch
A better man to run against him, As easy as that but since there isn't one I go with Bush
A better man to run against him, As easy as that but since there isn't one I go with Bush
Ouch...
Agreed, too me Bush is the lesser of two evils. I could care less that he missled us into a war, Saddam supported terrorism he deserve what he got.
Sounds good. How does the invasion of Iraq fit into this scenario? All of the given reasons proved false, and we're left only with the foolish notion of establishing Iraqi freedom, at the cost of $5B/mo, not to mention the casualties. How does this serve America? What's in it for us? What do we get other than dead and damaged young soldiers?
Left to the democrats and the UN, we will still be wondering what to do with Iraq and If they had WMD
Let's talk about balance. Let's talk about huge deficits and massive tax cuts for the wealthy while reservists' families are going broke-
Fine lets cut some wasteful programs to help reservist that are having salary issues.
[/quote]
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
- 50,879
- 4,268
- 126
Easy one.
Show without qualification where the WMDs we were told exist in fact ARE.
Show a complete act of repentence over jailing Padilla
Show an understanding of the complexities of the job he now holds, and an interest and awareness of nuance.
Show that he wants some freedom for the sheep as well as the wolves, as Lincoln put it.
Show without qualification where the WMDs we were told exist in fact ARE.
Show a complete act of repentence over jailing Padilla
Show an understanding of the complexities of the job he now holds, and an interest and awareness of nuance.
Show that he wants some freedom for the sheep as well as the wolves, as Lincoln put it.
well... voting pro-abortion sure isn't :=)
Saying that our men who where dieing for the country where guilty of horrendous war-crimes was very anti-troop. The whole movement was as against the people who did what their country told them to as against the ill conserved war... Kerry repeating horrendous sorties about individuals activates in Vietnam as if it where the norm certainly leads to the death and suicide of many men when they returned. War is hell; Sure he could have been anti-war and not anti-troop, but he wasn't. socially stigmatizing those men that came back from the war was an absolute wrong.
But that?s unimportant, it was many years ago and has little to do with the man today.
Bush didn't have to sign up for the national guard, he had draft exemption already. Severing your state certainly isn't the same as escaping the country to avoid your duty to the nation. You could say that the navy was a way to dodge the draft as well, not much in the way of submariner work occurring on the ground in Vietnam.
back to the question:
It would take a good reason that's something more than partisan nonsense.
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