What would happen if the Palestinians unconditionally surrendered?

[SamurAchzar]

In many debates around here, some people portray Israel as the aggressor and the party most responsible for the state the Palestinians are currently in.

What would happen if the Palestinians UNCONDITIONALLY surrendered, accepted defeat in this struggle, stopped all militant activity and resorted to negotiation based on the right of Israel to exist?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
In many debates around here, some people portray Israel as the aggressor and the party most responsible for the state the Palestinians are currently in.

What would happen if the Palestinians UNCONDITIONALLY surrendered, accepted defeat in this struggle, stopped all militant activity and resorted to negotiation based on the right of Israel to exist?

Fantastic question!!
Not argumentative in any way!
Not accusing anybody of anything!
Very well thought out question!!😀

 

[ViRGE]

No matter what side won, the winner kicks the loser out.

Next!

 

[BrownTown]

First off, there are 2 huge glaring problems in this question. First off is that there is no single leader or entity who could surrender even if they wanted to, the problem is as much due to alot of small group or individuals as it is to the larger groups. Secondly, "surrendering" makes no sense becasue there is no war or anything like that. Acting like there is some Isreal-Palestinian war going on is completely missing reality.

Also there is the fact that even if it were possible for "Palestine" to "surrender" they would never do it becasue it would mean accepting Isreali rule over their lands, and losing their autonomy and rights. Also, it would mean admitting they were wrong which aint gonna happen becasue they arent the ones to blame in the first place (not like they help the situations, but niether does Isreal or the US, or anyone for that matter).

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
First off, there are 2 huge glaring problems in this question. First off is that there is no single leader or entity who could surrender even if they wanted to, the problem is as much due to alot of small group or individuals as it is to the larger groups. Secondly, "surrendering" makes no sense becasue there is no war or anything like that. Acting like there is some Isreal-Palestinian war going on is completely missing reality.

They have been represented by Arafat ever since the Palestinian "nation" was formed. You could say that they are reasonably well represented by the Hamas today; Bush won by less than the margain by which Hamas won and is still a representative of the US (whether you like it or not, I guess).

Also there is the fact that even if it were possible for "Palestine" to "surrender" they would never do it becasue it would mean accepting Isreali rule over their lands, and losing their autonomy and rights.

On the contrary. The only reason Israel remains involved is because of Palestinian violence. Israel has no will nor does it have anything to gain by holding these areas and population. I'm not talking about one or two settlements which are hardly more than a loon, trailer and two goats. I'm talking about the big Palestinian cities in Gaza and the West bank. Israel would love getting rid of these (and tried to do so during the peace agreements with Jordan/Egypt, but couldn't).

Just consider the facts: It's an extremely volatile, hostile, poor population who doesn't like Israel one bit. Why would Israel want anything from them?

Also, it would mean admitting they were wrong which aint gonna happen becasue they arent the ones to blame in the first place (not like they help the situations, but niether does Isreal or the US, or anyone for that matter).

Surrendering isn't, by any means, admitting you were wrong. It is admittance of your inferiority against the power of your adversary. I'm not asking them to love Israel, just accept the facts, that they are at huge military disadvantage and Israel isn't going anywhere.

 

[Harabec]

Elvis would come back from the dead?
A cure for AIDS will be found?
Warren Buffet will make a really bad invesment?

All of these are as likley to occur in the near future as the situation you described in the OP.

 

[BrownTown]

The problem is simple, Hamas says "we surrender", but then some member of Hamas who doesnt agree with the surrender decides to blow himself up and then the Isrealis come in and buldoze the settlement he was from, then Hamas says they were attacked and must defend themselves and shoot some isreali soldier. Then Isreal launched a bombing campaign and kills a bunch of innocent Palestinians. Then maybe Hamas surrenders again, but the son of one of those innocent Palestinians that was killed decides he doesn't agree wuth the surrender....and this is the song that never ends, it goes on and on my friends...

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: BrownTown
The problem is simple, Hamas says "we surrender", but then some member of Hamas who doesnt agree with the surrender decides to blow himself up and then the Isrealis come in and buldoze the settlement he was from, then Hamas says they were attacked and must defend themselves and shoot some isreali soldier. Then Isreal launched a bombing campaign and kills a bunch of innocent Palestinians. Then maybe Hamas surrenders again, but the son of one of those innocent Palestinians that was killed decides he doesn't agree wuth the surrender....and this is the song that never ends, it goes on and on my friends...

Fair enough. But, how is that difference from any attempt to sign an agreement with the Palestinians? You are basically saying they are unable to act as a nation, but rather as a bunch of gangs.

 

[Czar]

1. Every settlement would be annexed along with neighboring area for security reasons.
2. Borders would be patroled by the IDF
3. Airspace would be in control of the IDF
4. Palestinian water resources would still go to Israel
5. Settlers would still harass the palestinians
7. Nothing would change
8. You would still be the biggest Israeli cheerleader this forum has seen, and thats saying alot

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Czar
1. Every settlement would be annexed along with neighboring area for security reasons.
2. Borders would be patroled by the IDF
3. Airspace would be in control of the IDF
4. Palestinian water resources would still go to Israel
5. Settlers would still harass the palestinians
7. Nothing would change
8. You would still be the biggest Israeli cheerleader this forum has seen, and thats saying alot

Weird. It seems to me that were the Palestinians to put their weapons down, Israel would be force to negotiate for an agreement - by the International community - even if it doesn't want to (and it certainly does, as history over the last 15 years suggests).

What happend to the support of the Palestinians by the International community during the recent period? It pretty much vanished.

BTW, as I stated at least 5 times in past debates, I'm an Israeli. Duh.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Czar
1. Every settlement would be annexed along with neighboring area for security reasons.
2. Borders would be patroled by the IDF
3. Airspace would be in control of the IDF
4. Palestinian water resources would still go to Israel
5. Settlers would still harass the palestinians
7. Nothing would change
8. You would still be the biggest Israeli cheerleader this forum has seen, and thats saying alot

Weird. It seems to me that were the Palestinians to put their weapons down, Israel would be force to negotiate for an agreement - by the International community - even if it doesn't want to (and it certainly does, as history over the last 15 years suggests).

What happend to the support of the Palestinians by the International community during the recent period? It pretty much vanished.

BTW, as I stated at least 5 times in past debates, I'm an Israeli. Duh.

Would israel return to the green line in return for peace?

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Czar
1. Every settlement would be annexed along with neighboring area for security reasons.
2. Borders would be patroled by the IDF
3. Airspace would be in control of the IDF
4. Palestinian water resources would still go to Israel
5. Settlers would still harass the palestinians
7. Nothing would change
8. You would still be the biggest Israeli cheerleader this forum has seen, and thats saying alot

Weird. It seems to me that were the Palestinians to put their weapons down, Israel would be force to negotiate for an agreement - by the International community - even if it doesn't want to (and it certainly does, as history over the last 15 years suggests).

What happend to the support of the Palestinians by the International community during the recent period? It pretty much vanished.

BTW, as I stated at least 5 times in past debates, I'm an Israeli. Duh.

Would israel return to the green line in return for peace?

In a perfect world where stable, lasting peace is guarenteed, then I think - yes, definitely.
However the problem doesn't end there. The main problem as I see it is the right of return which the Palestinians demand.

Do you think Israel and the Palestinians should be put on a level field in terms of negotiation, just like US and Japan weren't equal parties at the end of the WWII. It may seem unjust, but such attitude will only make this conflict longer and messier.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Czar
1. Every settlement would be annexed along with neighboring area for security reasons.
2. Borders would be patroled by the IDF
3. Airspace would be in control of the IDF
4. Palestinian water resources would still go to Israel
5. Settlers would still harass the palestinians
7. Nothing would change
8. You would still be the biggest Israeli cheerleader this forum has seen, and thats saying alot

Weird. It seems to me that were the Palestinians to put their weapons down, Israel would be force to negotiate for an agreement - by the International community - even if it doesn't want to (and it certainly does, as history over the last 15 years suggests).

What happend to the support of the Palestinians by the International community during the recent period? It pretty much vanished.

BTW, as I stated at least 5 times in past debates, I'm an Israeli. Duh.

Would israel return to the green line in return for peace?

In a perfect world where stable, lasting peace is guarenteed, then I think - yes, definitely.
However the problem doesn't end there. The main problem as I see it is the right of return which the Palestinians demand.

Do you think Israel and the Palestinians should be put on a level field in terms of negotiation, just like US and Japan weren't equal parties at the end of the WWII. It may seem unjust, but such attitude will only make this conflict longer and messier.

so I take it you support the proposal by the arab legue?

 

[SamurAchzar]

It has no clear stance on the right of return, that's the main hinderance in its viability.
If that proposal led to stable, long lasting peace, that would probably be just what Israel needs. Believe me when I say Israelis would love to leave that conflict behind and concentrate on having a better country.

I'd also like to see population exchange between Israeli Arabs (who by large label themselves "Palestinians" and show no loyality to Israel) and large settlements. I think that solution is the best for the long term - like the old phrase goes, "good fences make good neighbours".

The average Israeli is more apathic than anything regarding the Palestinians, after all these years of negotiation, promises (by Israeli politicians, mainly) and violence. It's true that apathy can develop to aggression, but there is no real haterd.
I'm all for their own country, but I know they won't be able to run it once it's given to them. They enjoyed massive International help, on an unseen-before scale, during the days of the Oslo process, and the economical figures from those days support it. They failed to turn it into anything good. It's not a good record as far as taking care of their stuff goes.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Czar

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Czar
1. Every settlement would be annexed along with neighboring area for security reasons.
2. Borders would be patroled by the IDF
3. Airspace would be in control of the IDF
4. Palestinian water resources would still go to Israel
5. Settlers would still harass the palestinians
7. Nothing would change
8. You would still be the biggest Israeli cheerleader this forum has seen, and thats saying alot

Weird. It seems to me that were the Palestinians to put their weapons down, Israel would be force to negotiate for an agreement - by the International community - even if it doesn't want to (and it certainly does, as history over the last 15 years suggests).

What happend to the support of the Palestinians by the International community during the recent period? It pretty much vanished.

BTW, as I stated at least 5 times in past debates, I'm an Israeli. Duh.

Would israel return to the green line in return for peace?

In a perfect world where stable, lasting peace is guarenteed, then I think - yes, definitely.
However the problem doesn't end there. The main problem as I see it is the right of return which the Palestinians demand.

Do you think Israel and the Palestinians should be put on a level field in terms of negotiation, just like US and Japan weren't equal parties at the end of the WWII. It may seem unjust, but such attitude will only make this conflict longer and messier.

Unlike in Japan israel isn't in a good position to negotiate. With japan we had both a carrot and a stick. Israel is only a offering rotten carrots and has been using the same stick for so long no one cares. And just as importantly in the Japan goverment was extremely powerful so it was able to deliver on the negations for the most part. Israel has beaten down any orginisation in palestine so that there isn't any real leadership to negate with.

 

[smack Down]

I'd also like to see population exchange between Israeli Arabs (who by large label themselves "Palestinians" and show no loyality to Israel) and large settlements. I think that solution is the best for the long term - like the old phrase goes, "good fences make good neighbours".

Never going to happen. A the quality of life is a hell of a lot better in Israel and B if any Israeli Arabs moved to Palestinian as part of some Israel goverment program they would be killed by the palestinians for Treason.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
In many debates around here, some people portray Israel as the aggressor and the party most responsible for the state the Palestinians are currently in.

What would happen if the Palestinians UNCONDITIONALLY surrendered, accepted defeat in this struggle, stopped all militant activity and resorted to negotiation based on the right of Israel to exist?

There would be snowball fights in hell.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: smack Down
Unlike in Japan israel isn't in a good position to negotiate. With japan we had both a carrot and a stick. Israel is only a offering rotten carrots and has been using the same stick for so long no one cares.

We were willing to do what was necessary to force Japan to negotiate. When villages are destroyed, the proper negotiation of ?surrender or die? starts to take effect. The entire problem is that NO ONE has allowed Israel to force Palestine to surrender.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: smack Down
Unlike in Japan israel isn't in a good position to negotiate. With japan we had both a carrot and a stick. Israel is only a offering rotten carrots and has been using the same stick for so long no one cares.

We were willing to do what was necessary to force Japan to negotiate. When villages are destroyed, the proper negotiation of ?surrender or die? starts to take effect. The entire problem is that NO ONE has allowed Israel to force Palestine to surrender.

There is no one who can surrender for the palestinians. The people fighting are small groups who are more then willing to die. When people are more then willing to die for a cause the threat of death is kind of pointless.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Czar
1. Every settlement would be annexed along with neighboring area for security reasons.
2. Borders would be patroled by the IDF
3. Airspace would be in control of the IDF
4. Palestinian water resources would still go to Israel
5. Settlers would still harass the palestinians
7. Nothing would change
8. You would still be the biggest Israeli cheerleader this forum has seen, and thats saying alot

Actually I am th biggst Israeli supporter!!
My son is in Israel as we speak!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: smack Down
Unlike in Japan israel isn't in a good position to negotiate. With japan we had both a carrot and a stick. Israel is only a offering rotten carrots and has been using the same stick for so long no one cares.

We were willing to do what was necessary to force Japan to negotiate. When villages are destroyed, the proper negotiation of ?surrender or die? starts to take effect. The entire problem is that NO ONE has allowed Israel to force Palestine to surrender.

There is no one who can surrender for the palestinians. The people fighting are small groups who are more then willing to die. When people are more then willing to die for a cause the threat of death is kind of pointless.

Actually thats not true at all!! Hamas could surrender for palestine and the palestinian people would fall into place!!

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Czar
1. Every settlement would be annexed along with neighboring area for security reasons.
2. Borders would be patroled by the IDF
3. Airspace would be in control of the IDF
4. Palestinian water resources would still go to Israel
5. Settlers would still harass the palestinians
7. Nothing would change
8. You would still be the biggest Israeli cheerleader this forum has seen, and thats saying alot

Weird. It seems to me that were the Palestinians to put their weapons down, Israel would be force to negotiate for an agreement - by the International community - even if it doesn't want to (and it certainly does, as history over the last 15 years suggests).

What happend to the support of the Palestinians by the International community during the recent period? It pretty much vanished.

BTW, as I stated at least 5 times in past debates, I'm an Israeli. Duh.

Last time there was a Palestinian cease-fire Israel continued to attack a while 'to get a few people responsible for previous bombings', until Palestinians got tired of it and retaliated, after which Israel said there could not be peace if Palestinians were still attacking.

Both parties contains groups which do not want peace, who just want the other group to be totally annihilated. When talks are coming closer again Israel suddenly announces building new settlements in Palestinian territory and stuff like that.

There won't be peace even if you'd lock up all the extremists from one side, as the attacks from the extremists from the other side will create more extremists. That's basically what the attacks on Lebanon did too: It gave Hezbollah an enormous popularity boost, as Hezbollah was the only one to help people rebuild their homes, hospitals and schools after Israeli troops started pulling out again.

 

[tvarad]

I know that it is a hypothetical question, but there's no way that Syria and Iran would allow it to happen, since those regimes depend on the Palestinians languishing in misery for their survival. They would simply instigate something outrageous like suicide bombings in Israel or kidnappings like the recent ones that led to the Lebanon war to keep the pot boiling.