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What would a 2700mhz A64 winchester be equal

Duvie

Elite Member
I have dual channel 300fsb and pc3200 cas 2,1t speeds...

If 3000+ is 1.8ghz
If 3200+ is 2.0ghz
If 3500+ is 2.2ghz

3700+ = 2.4gh???
4000+ = 2.6ghz???
4200+ = 2.8ghz???

I am looking for a pattern but I don't know. I know the upper chips like the fx's have more cache l2 and tat helps a bit...
 
The REAL 4000+ is 2.4GHz, but it has 1MB of cache. The real 3800+ is 2.4GHz w/512k. The cache only helps in some apps, not all. I'd put a 2.7GHz w/512k @ ~4300+.

I call my 3200+ @ 2.5 a 3950. 😛
 
Originally posted by: nick1985
Originally posted by: Duvie
Originally posted by: nick1985
what FSB is your memory at? 133?

Yep..basically a 3:2 divider....

you would be better off running your mem at 166, and toning down the FSB, unless you are just trying to max out your chip


Please post links or info showing this to be true... I have tested this in the past ona more memory bandwidth hungry p4 and the cpu of over 100mhz clock almost always did better and overall was better in performance. Remember I am not a big gamer, more cpu intensive apps used...

I would like have to drop to 2450 or 272fsb to get it to run at cas 2.5...that seems pretty stupid considering I would gain 80mhz of ddr speed drop cas latency and give up 250mhz....I DONT THINK SO!!


AMD ppl need to pst data to support the claims I hear rehashed by all the sheeple that say 1:1 is all you want to do, and high memory speed is what you want....

I THINK YOU GUYS ARE WRONG AND CHALLENGE YOU T O ACTUALLY TEST IT...EMPIRICAL DATA PLEASE...OTHERWISE THEY ARE OPINIONS AND WE KNOW ABOUT THOSE!!! 😉
 
However since I will likely be keeping my P4 setup I may get some better higher PC stuff fot this that may make me drop to 2600mhz (that being 2700mhz is 100% stable after all is said and done), but I better at that point I better be running the Pc4000 speed and close to cas 2 timings or it probably a wash or worse...
 
alright duvie...let me finish installing Rome Total War, then ill post some bandwidth and CPU benchmarks for you
 
That will be fine, but I need more then 1 case...I want to see it across the board in things like, winar, rendering, games, encoding,scientific, dvdshrink, etc....

In the end I don't thimk 80ddr will make more then 1-2% difference and that is against sandras likely 5-10% plus bandwidth...I thought we all knew what sandra scores were good for....
 
test system

athlon64 socket 939
epox 9nda3+
gig mushkin 3500 level II


270FSB with memory settings at 133FSB 1t-2-2-2-10
benchies


267FSB with memory settings at 166FSB 1t-2.5-3-3-10
benchies


as you can see, even with slightly slower timings, the memory set at 166 FSB Destroys the system at slightly higher FSB over all, and with memory timings faster. this is because the test that used 133FSB for the ram runs at a much crappier ratio for a divider, which kills the memory bandwidth...over 1000 points less in sandra.


the CPU scores are the same, but the memory bandwidth is 18% higher on the system with 166FSB memory, even with slightly lower FSB overall and loosened memory timings.
 
Tell me you have more then sandra to pin your claims on???

Everybody knows sandra doesn't mean crap...REAL world not just bragging rights for benchmarks...
 
the only other test i have off hand is 3dmark05

with the same setup as before...

the 133 memory system scored 4516

the 166 memory system scored 4635



 
dude cas latencies mean MINIMAL performance differences the diff between cas 2 and 3 is 5% at the BEST of times. 2-3% is more realistic. Get over your timing obsession, the only timing that is very important to maintain is 1t. kk bye. This is amd you're dealing with now, not some intel pos.
 
Originally posted by: RealityTime
dude cas latencies mean MINIMAL performance differences the diff between cas 2 and 3 is 5% at the BEST of times. 2-3% is more realistic. Get over your timing obsession, the only timing that is very important to maintain is 1t. kk bye. This is amd you're dealing with now, not some intel pos.

can i ask WTF you are talking about? the discussion between me and duvie has almost nothing to do with cas latencies...😕
 
Originally posted by: nick1985
the only other test i have off hand is 3dmark05

with the same setup as before...

the 133 memory system scored 4516

the 166 memory system scored 4635

That is a start...Now a couple of things...

1) 3dmark can vary a little in multiple test

2) your clock difference is around 30mhz right??? Like I said I may likely have to drop it 150-250mhz to get ram to run with 166...the name of the game with 9x multipler...With new ram maybe it will be closer....

3) you are comparing 360ddr to 445ddr or 85 more mhz....which by the way would be close to my difference....

4) the difference is only 2.5% for a 1.1% change in cpu clock.....


I would have a potential of 6 to 10.0% change of clock and if I had same 80ddr diff I should theoretically not gain mouch more then 2.5% as well and then maybe take a 1-2% hit for cas latency...


See the picture...It doesn't jive as being so in my case.

NOw I get some good pc4000 stuff maybe a can take it to 2.6ghz still and hold potentially cas 2 at 480ddr...Then that would only be a 3.3% downclock but still may only gain 2.5%...I don't see how it can really jive.
 
To run 166FSB (which is totally confusing since the memory is not running at 333mhz, and a better way of saying it is 6/5 ratio = 200/166), Duvie would have to run 300FSB at 250mhz (500 effective) memory which his ram is simply not capable of doing it seems.

So 300FSB x 9 multiplier = 2700 mhz and memory at PC3200 (hence 133mhz or better 3:2= cpu:ram)

Now nick you are saying 166mhz ram...that means he'd have to lower FSB to 240 and have memory running at 200 mhz (240:200 = 200:166 = 6:5 ratio). So to equate to 2700mhz he'd have to have 11.5 multiplier or so....is that even an option?

Basically, unless his PC3200 can go above 400mhz speed, it's better to run lowest multiplier and highest FSB. This 166mhz memory you speak of, will bring him 0 advantage if his ram can't run above PC3200 specs.

Now look at the data you've provided:

270FSB and 133mhz ram ratio => your ram is running at 180mhz abouts (270:180 = 200:133 = 3:2)

In the 2nd case you have 267FSB and 166mhz ram ratio => your ruam is running at 223 mhz (267:223 = 200:166 = 6:5)

NO WONDER you have 1000mb in extra bandwidth in sandra as the ram is running 43mhz higher (223vs.180). In Duvie's case he is already running his ram at his max (PC3200 setting I assume) so where is he going to gain the additional memory speed in the first place? That is why in his case going to 166FSB and lower 240FSB with 11.5 multiplier makes little sense since he'll still be running at PC3200; but now with a lower FSB to boot? Whats the advantage in that?

If he keeps 240 and same multiplier 9 just to have 166mhz ram ratio, then that option makes even less sense between everything I just said.
 
Yup, Duvie has the AMD stuff down cold, just like the P4 stuff. I say its avout 4200+-4300+ also. Including an OC'ed P4 at 4200 (the fastest I have seen) and that is in 32 bit. Wait till he tries 64 bit on some rendering apps !

Keep the 133 for now until you can get memory that runs at 250. I am thinking about getting some PC4000 or 4200 Ballistix to try OCing my 939 better. (my motherboard sucks)
 
Originally posted by: RussianSensation
To run 166FSB (which is totally confusing since the memory is not running at 333mhz, and a better way of saying it is 6/5 ratio = 200/166), Duvie would have to run 300FSB at 250mhz (500 effective) memory which his ram is simply not capable of doing it seems.

So 300FSB x 9 multiplier = 2700 mhz and memory at PC3200 (hence 133mhz or better 3:2= cpu:ram)

Now nick you are saying 166mhz ram...that means he'd have to lower FSB to 240 and have memory running at 200 mhz (240:200 = 200:166 = 6:5 ratio). So to equate to 2700mhz he'd have to have 11.5 multiplier or so....is that even an option?

Basically, unless his PC3200 can go above 400mhz speed, it's better to run lowest multiplier and highest FSB. This 166mhz memory you speak of, will bring him 0 advantage if his ram can't run above PC3200 specs.

Now look at the data you've provided:

270FSB and 133mhz ram ratio => your ram is running at 180mhz abouts (270:180 = 200:133 = 3:2)

In the 2nd case you have 267FSB and 166mhz ram ratio => your ruam is running at 223 mhz (267:223 = 200:166 = 6:5)

NO WONDER you have 1000mb in extra bandwidth in sandra as the ram is running 43mhz higher (223vs.180). In Duvie's case he is already running his ram at his max (PC3200 setting I assume) so where is he going to gain the additional memory speed in the first place? That is why in his case going to 166FSB and lower 240FSB with 11.5 multiplier makes little sense since he'll still be running at PC3200; but now with a lower FSB to boot? Whats the advantage in that?

If he keeps 240 and same multiplier 9 just to have 166mhz ram ratio, then that option makes even less sense between everything I just said.



ahhhh ok. thanks for clearing that up for me, that really helped. :thumbsup:
 
YOU ARE ALL WRONG🙂
But at different degrees. Duvie is reporting what is actually correct:
You can not match the OC potential of an async setup with 1:1 dividers nomatter how low you set the latencies. 1:1 OC is limited ONLY to 3500+ and beyond A64s. A64 is always async so what really matters as you will see later is how close you can get to your max stable Memory Clock, max stable CPU clock and HT around 1000.

Nick1985 as russian sensation said you are comparing apples to oranges and ofcourse you reach completely wrong results.

Russian sensation you are close to the truth but no quite so. Unfortunately memory is not calculated through the Mem/FSB dividers(5/6,2/3,1/2) DIRECTLY but rather through CPU/Mem dividers. What you actually get is that your memory runs lower than what you have calculated through Mem/FSB dividers. The actual math type involved can be found in OCA64 calculator (link below). A very peculiar effect of this situation is that the real CPU/Memory divider changes with each combination of CPU multiplier and Mem/FSB divider(5/6,2/3,1/2). Even the BIOS in my MSI board MISREPORTS the memory frequency using Russian's Sensation method.

PS You can not imagine how much confusion has been created because of this mess, I am trying to advocate OCA64 as the only real solution to stop people asking the same questions and bashing excellent in every other way products because they don't know the REAL frequencies involved....
 
So basically what this all boils down to is... duvie should get better memory! That way he can run 300mhz memory with 2-2-2-10-1t timings... good luck finding that though. I hear bh-5 doesn't like athlon 64's (or maybe the other way around), and anyway most bh-5 can't get much past 260mhz with 2-2-2 timings.
 
Originally posted by: frootbooter
So basically what this all boils down to is... duvie should get better memory! That way he can run 300mhz memory with 2-2-2-10-1t timings... good luck finding that though. I hear bh-5 doesn't like athlon 64's (or maybe the other way around), and anyway most bh-5 can't get much past 260mhz with 2-2-2 timings.

If this is what you made from all that was posted... (Actually duvie does not need to buy any better memory)

It is pointless....

ASYNC
ASYNC
ASYNC
ASYNC
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA:frown::Q:|
 
AMD's ratings are BS, which is why a skt 754 3400 NC beats a 3500. That chip should have been called 3600 by all rights.

Well alright. since CPU speeds theorechtically scale linearly with frequency in ideal situations it's optimal to use a multiplier when comparing disimilar CPU's, disimilar speeds, disimilar feature sets etc.

Because if we were to use absolute values(like 400mhz, say for example, we know by looking at the benchmarks a Skt 754 A64 Newcastle at 1800 Mhz = a Barton at 2200 mhz diff = 400mhz which are equal performing in the global sense) we run into problems trying to apply it at differnet speeds since that absolute value does'nt scale. Natually at 2500mhz A64 you would need much more than 400 more Mhz out of the barton to equal this A64. Natually adding features like 1 mb lvl 2 or dual channel skews results further. Making absolutes a futile excersize.


Anyway just look here at the aggregates (last graph):

****Same bus speed and same mem timmings must be preserved when making comparisons cross platform.


http://hardware.fr/art/imprimer/496/
http://hardware.fr/art/imprimer/531/

You can do the interpolation But heres how it breaks down.

choose a base CPU. I'll choose Barton (B), in this case the 3200, and compare it to any other CPU finding the multiplier.

754 NC A64 x 1.25 = B
754 CH A64 x 1.30 = B
939 NC A64 x 1.30 = B
939 CH A64 x 1.40 = B
1.25 x B = P4C
1.27 x B = P4E
1.20 x B = P4EE

Want to know PR of a 2600 mhz 939 NC A64? = 2600 x 1.30 = 3380Mhz Barton or 3380 x 1.25 = 4225 Mhz P4C.

How fast is a 3200 Athlon XP compared to a P4C? 2200 x 1.25 = 2750 Mhz P4C

How fast is your OC? 2700 x 1.30 = 3510 barton x 1.25 = 4387 Mhz P4C


I think you'll find using these multipliers these results are pretty close when comparing all real world test from superpi to gaming to encoding...

rule of thumb is
A64 speed x 1.5 = P4C speed
Add 5% for Dual Channel
Add 5% for 1 mb lvl 2
Subtract 2% for skt 940 due to ECC/Reg
AXP-speed x 1.25 =P4C speed
 
Originally posted by: nick1985
test system

athlon64 socket 939
epox 9nda3+
gig mushkin 3500 level II


270FSB with memory settings at 133FSB 1t-2-2-2-10
benchies


267FSB with memory settings at 166FSB 1t-2.5-3-3-10
benchies


as you can see, even with slightly slower timings, the memory set at 166 FSB Destroys the system at slightly higher FSB over all, and with memory timings faster. this is because the test that used 133FSB for the ram runs at a much crappier ratio for a divider, which kills the memory bandwidth...over 1000 points less in sandra.



the CPU scores are the same, but the memory bandwidth is 18% higher on the system with 166FSB memory, even with slightly lower FSB overall and loosened memory timings.

Yup bandwitdh is where it's at. Look at the recent anandtech A64 memory benches to confirm too.
http://www.anandtech.com/memor...oc.aspx?i=2226&p=9
 
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