What will count as a Victory for you in Iraq

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Klixxer
No, the world will still think of YOU as a fundamentalist nutjob who loves the talibans and is prepared to stone his own children to death. No sane man will ever think that you are anything but a pshycho.

:thumbsup:

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Todd33
Let them elect a government, no matter who it is. Train their troops, then get the fck out of there. No permanent bases, no stakes in there oil. We need to show the Arab world we are not taking their natural resources or occupying there land.

:thumbsup:

 

[dullard]

I would call it a victory iff (1) we have a stable government in place after we leave and (2) that government doesn't actively encourage hatred against others.

I really don't care what type of government is in place or what kind of freedoms they do/don't have. I don't care about terrorism or WMD since I don't think Iraq was the main problem (ie we can't solve a problem that doesn't exist). I care about our allies, but that is already trashed - only time will heal it.

I do care that when we leave it isn't turned into a brutal civil war where WMD and terrorists are encouraged. I do care if the next government goes right back to encouraging hatred of Americans.

Sadly, I don't know of much historical evidence that a stable government CAN be had after we pull out. In virtually all cases, brutal problems existed after the pull out and conditions worsened. There is a consequence for pulling down a regime - and now we have to pay it.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: Klixxer
No, the world will still think of YOU as a fundamentalist nutjob who loves the talibans and is prepared to stone his own children to death. No sane man will ever think that you are anything but a pshycho.

:thumbsup:

thank you also for crapping in my thread

 

[jackschmittusa]

I don't see any realistic possibility of anything I would consider a "victory" ever happening in Iraq. A stable, democratic, partner in the war on terror Iraq is a laudable goal, but I think it is a pipe dream. Not only do all the various factions want to advance their own agendas, there is a great fear of harm or discrimination if another faction comes to power. I think the best we can do is find a moment when things don't look too bad and say adios. Perminent military bases in Iraq will mean permenent conflict.

 

[Ethex]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: Ethex
As long as there is Terrorism we should have bases in the Middle East.

to serve our Imperialistic designs? even if our intention is not this, it will be perceived the world over as such. what do you say?

I say it will be perceived in Asia Minor as such. The rest of the world will see it as a strategic location as they always have

 

[Kibbo]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Todd33
Let them elect a government, no matter who it is. Train their troops, then get the fck out of there. No permanent bases, no stakes in there oil. We need to show the Arab world we are not taking their natural resources or occupying there land.

:thumbsup:

And when Saddam part deux happens you can revise history and disavow any responsibility. Kinda like in Iran. Or Chile. Or Cuba. Or Cambodia. Or El salvador. Or The Phillipines. Or Guatemala. Or. . .

 

[prometheusxls]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: Genx87
Stable democratic govt in place

And you believe that the United States can convince 23 million (or put whatever number you want here) Iraqis to participate in a democratic process while they are there as an occupying force, with constant violence, no proper infrastructure, regular bombings (both from US forces and insurgents) killing many civilians, etc, etc, etc???

What if the people decide to have a theocratic government rather than a democratic? What then?

Are we going to impose democracy on Iraq? How will we achieve what you stated?

Impose democracy is its self a contradiction in terms. The people have to choose deomocracy. That is the only way that it works.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: prometheusxls

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: Genx87
Stable democratic govt in place

And you believe that the United States can convince 23 million (or put whatever number you want here) Iraqis to participate in a democratic process while they are there as an occupying force, with constant violence, no proper infrastructure, regular bombings (both from US forces and insurgents) killing many civilians, etc, etc, etc???

What if the people decide to have a theocratic government rather than a democratic? What then?

Are we going to impose democracy on Iraq? How will we achieve what you stated?

Impose democracy is its self a contradiction in terms. The people have to choose deomocracy. That is the only way that it works.

by imposing elections in January upon the Iraqis without any semblence whatsoever of order, are we not imposing democracy on Iraq?

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: Ethex

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: Ethex
As long as there is Terrorism we should have bases in the Middle East.

to serve our Imperialistic designs? even if our intention is not this, it will be perceived the world over as such. what do you say?

I say it will be perceived in Asia Minor as such. The rest of the world will see it as a strategic location as they always have

I dont believe you answered the question. How does our bases in Iraq make the world perceive of the country as Asia Minor? Are you in support of American Imperialism? Will the presence of our bases in Iraq not make the world think of America as an Imperialist nation?

 

[FoBoT]

stable secular government in place similar to Turkey.

"republican parliamentary democracy"

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: FoBoT
stable secular government in place similar to Turkey.

"republican parliamentary democracy"

Many people have had the same opinion. Lets talk about something more realistic in the short term. It takes decades to build institutions to support a "republican parliamentary democracy". You need political parties (Iraq has none), a sizeable number of easily reachable independant newspapers (Iraq has none), established judicial system (Iraq has none), a constitution by the people (Iraq has none), stable infrastructure (Iraq has none), etc, etc, etc......

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: Sultan
I dont believe you answered the question. How does our bases in Iraq make the world perceive of the country as Asia Minor? Are you in support of American Imperialism? Will the presence of our bases in Iraq not make the world think of America as an Imperialist nation?

He said that it would be viewed as imperialism in Asia Minor, but would not be viewed as such elsewhere in the world. Instead it would be known as a strategic location, not imperialism.

 

[glugglug]

There is (and will never be) no victory in Iraq.

 

[CrazyHelloDeli]

Complete and total annihilation of the Islamic world = Victory

 

[Kibbo]

Originally posted by: HelloDeli
Complete and total annihilation of the Islamic world = Victory

I have here a fake moustache and a pair of jackboots you'd look great in.

 

[MidasKnight]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Stable democratic govt in place

 

[onelove]

VICTORY has already been achieved. The MISSION we set out on was ACCOMPLISHED months ago. (where have you all been?)

I mostly just believe what I see on TV, though, and they don't show the bodybags flying home like they did in the 1960s...

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Todd33
Let them elect a government, no matter who it is. Train their troops, then get the fck out of there. No permanent bases, no stakes in there oil. We need to show the Arab world we are not taking their natural resources or occupying there land.

:thumbsup:

One of the rare occassions when I have agreed with Todd33. He won't agree with the rest of my sentiment of course...

If they institute another hostile governmen to the US, then we'll just start bleeding them dry with sanctions again. If they start to develop WMD's and threatening us/their neighbors, we'll start bombing them again. Carrot or stick, their choice.

 

[piasabird]

Look at south korea. It has been about 50 years since the war and eventually they have become a world power industrialist nation. I will consider Iraq a success when all the Muslim nations look up to that country as an example of how to establish peace in the region.

 

[piasabird]

The 9/11 commission only said there was not a direct connection between Iraq and 9/11. That only means that they were not in on the planning and execution. That does not mean that they did not donate money to some of the terrorists.

 

[NesuD]

Originally posted by: Todd33
Let them elect a government, no matter who it is. Train their troops, then get the fck out of there. No permanent bases, no stakes in there oil. We need to show the Arab world we are not taking their natural resources or occupying there land.

As painful as it is for me to do this I have to :thumbsup: to that. The idea is to give them the support they need to run their own country as the people of Iraq see fit. That doesn't preclude us from good relations with their chosen government. It also shouldn't preclude us from taking measures against those who would interfere.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: piasabird
The 9/11 commission only said there was not a direct connection between Iraq and 9/11. That only means that they were not in on the planning and execution. That does not mean that they did not donate money to some of the terrorists.

We can always extract whatever meaning for whatever purpose we so desire. 9/11 was terrorism in America as was the USS Cole bombing. Neither had anything to do with Iraq. Iraq is not part of War on Terror, and even if this was the case, then we're losing it rather than winning considering the nation is pretty much in chaos and has prompted many in the region to sign up for Al-Qaeda or pour into Iraq to fight our forces.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Todd33
Let them elect a government, no matter who it is. Train their troops, then get the fck out of there. No permanent bases, no stakes in there oil. We need to show the Arab world we are not taking their natural resources or occupying there land.

:thumbsup:

One of the rare occassions when I have agreed with Todd33. He won't agree with the rest of my sentiment of course...

If they institute another hostile governmen to the US, then we'll just start bleeding them dry with sanctions again. If they start to develop WMD's and threatening us/their neighbors, we'll start bombing them again. Carrot or stick, their choice.

Many people have had the same opinion. Lets talk about something more realistic in the short term. It takes decades to build institutions to support a "republican parliamentary democracy". You need political parties (Iraq has none), a sizeable number of easily reachable independant newspapers (Iraq has none), established judicial system (Iraq has none), a constitution by the people (Iraq has none), stable infrastructure (Iraq has none), etc, etc, etc......

 

[Todd33]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Todd33
Let them elect a government, no matter who it is. Train their troops, then get the fck out of there. No permanent bases, no stakes in there oil. We need to show the Arab world we are not taking their natural resources or occupying there land.

:thumbsup:

One of the rare occassions when I have agreed with Todd33. He won't agree with the rest of my sentiment of course...

If they institute another hostile governmen to the US, then we'll just start bleeding them dry with sanctions again. If they start to develop WMD's and threatening us/their neighbors, we'll start bombing them again. Carrot or stick, their choice.

Sounds good to me. They can choose to elect hostile asshats, that's part of democracy (we did ). As long as we have real evidence of WMDs and not just a house of cards.