What upgrade path to take?

[cubalis]

I have the BFG 6600GT OC PCI-e in my Asus A8N SLI Deluxe board right now. It runs nicely, but I feel I would like a little more gaming performance. My question is if I should

1) get another 6600GT for SLI
2) sell my current card and get a 6800GT
3) or what I am leaning towards - sell my current card and pick up a x800XL.

I am definately on a budget being a University student, and the x800XL is currently around $200+ cdn less than the 6800GT (provided the stores I am looking at still have them in stock... ) and actually is only $90 cdn more than my original card.

I realize I'd be throwing SLI out by getting the x800XL - which leads to future upgrade headaches if/when SLI becomes supported more.... so what I'm really asking falls more into the 'is it worth it' category rather than should I upgrade.

I have read oodles of reviews on all cards mentioned from every vendor.... so I understand the performance differences. Just looking for opinions and reccomendations.

cheers

 

[Gamer X]

I say you should wait a while with the 6600gt until may when the new cards from ATI
and NV arrive and then you can get a 6800gt or X800XL for a reasonable price.

 

[kylebisme]

Considering he wants more preformace now, waiting isn't rightly a good option. As for which card to get, presonaly I'd go for the xl; but it really comes down to a matter of presonal preference and if you like preffer way nvidia cards work then the 6800gt would be your best bet.

 

[nRollo]

The X800XL undoubtedly offers the best gaming "bang for buck" of the choices, but in his case this would be diminished by the fact he'd have to eat a loss on the sale of his used 6600GT. Also, he spent at least $50 more to get a SLI motherboard, and maybe bought a new power supply as well. That money is gone as well if he uses an ATI card on it. If you figure he loses $50 on sale of the card, $50 on the unused motherboard functionality, adding $100 to the cost of the X800XL doesn't seem quite as attractive.
Not to mention he would be going back to the 2002 feature set.

The same loss would apply to the 6800GT, but it being the fastest and most upgradeable solution offsets that as well.

IMO, his best option is to get another 6600GT and use his SLI. Here's why:
1. I don't think he'd notice the gaming difference 99% of the time. A look at the the benchmarks where the the average fps are at or above 50 HERE will show I'm right about that.
2. Doesn't lose money on sale of original and motherboard
3. If he likes to game at 16X12 0X?X, the 6600s may well be faster and smoother than the other two
4. If he's using his computer as a way to watch video at college, the 6600s have the most advanced video feature set.
5. The 2002 feature set of the ATI cards is starting to show it's age: HDR in Far Cry, SM3 in Far Cry, Painkiller, Splinter Cell 3, Soft Stencil Shadows in Chronicles of Riddick, gameplay in general in Doom3 and Doom3 based games, MS standard- all of these tell me I want to have SM3 and 32 bit in 2005
6. As a 6600GT SLI user, I disagree with his "compatibility" issues. If he would download the latest drivers and look in the nVapps.xml file in his system 32, he'd see a pages long list of preset profiles for games that do SLI "out of box" now. He can force SLI on all games with Coolbits. He can point and click to create profiles with utilities. SLI compatibility issues is largely a myth told by people who don't have SLI. While it's true SLI doesn't seem to overly benefit some ancient games, a 6600GT offers smoking play on them anyway, remember on 6600GT is in general as fast(er) than a 9800Pro, last gens best.

If he were a guy upgrading his aging AGP set, and wanted the highest bang for buck ratio and PCIE, I'd say that this week the X800XL on a single slot board offers that.

However, he has 2/3 of a 6600GT SLI rig, and losing money to play with a midrange ATI card doesn't make sense to me. The cost, 2002 features, and performance advantage mainly being at unplayable settings on a couple games would kill that idea for me.

 

[cubalis]

Some interesting points there Rollo, thanks. I should have mentioned that I use a Samsung 710t LCD - 1280x1024. So higher resolution is out of the question.

The main reason I got the SLI board was for future upgrade potential, like in 6-12 months when I can get two higher end cards for a decent price. With that said I wouldn't feel as bad wasting sli at this point in time... but I understand what you're saying.

It seems hard to justify dropping $620 cdn (half of which I spent already) on two 6600gt's, when seemingly similar performance could be had with the $399 x800xl. With what you said about the older features of ati's card makes me reconsider though.

On the other hand, taking even a $70cdn 'hit' on selling my current card still doesn't close the gap as much as much as I'd like... $400 compared to $550. If performance would be quite similar on both setups for the next 6-12 months, then I could really use that 150 extra to but textbooks, eat, live etc...

Thanks for the info, much appreciated.

 

[nitromullet]

Get the second 6600GT. Isn't that what you had in mind when you bought the A8N SLI Deluxe and the first 6600GT? That's why I don't own an SLI mobo yet, it would kill me to have the extra PCIe slot empty.

 

[CU]

I would either wait to see what new may come out soon or sale your 6600gt and get the 6800gt. You can add another 6800gt later if you want to. I am not a big fan of SLI though.

 

[CU]

Oh and you don't lose money by not using SLI. It is a sunk cost.

 

[kylebisme]

Exactly, don't mind Rollo's attempt to sway you with logical fallicy; you can't loose money you already spent. As you point out adding another 6600gt will cost you more than selling the one you have and replacing it with a x800xl. Not to mention, if those 6600gts are 128mb cards then you would be stuck with having to sacrifice texture quality and AA in newer games that are designed to make use of 256mb of video-ram as SLI doesn't share ram.


Also I got a kick out of this:

Originally posted by: Rollo
5. The 2002 feature set of the ATI cards is starting to show it's age: HDR in Far Cry, SM3 in Far Cry, Painkiller, Splinter Cell 3, Soft Stencil Shadows in Chronicles of Riddick, gameplay in general in Doom3 and Doom3 based games, MS standard- all of these tell me I want to have SM3 and 32 bit in 2005

While I do agree that Nvidia has a leg up with SM3 and their proprietary shadow tech; I'd have to say Doom3 is highly debatable as if you like vsync then Nvidia's lake of triple buffering in OpenGL is a real down spot, and I have yet to see any game listed there or otherwise demonstrate the value of 32bit floating point over 24bit. Regardless, I can't say i'm missing SM3 or the 16bit floating point framebuffer that alows for HDR in Far Cry by using an x800xt-pe in my main rig, and if I was I'd just swap it out for my 6800gt that hits just under ultra speeds which I keep in my second rig. But Rollo is right in implying that the Geforce6 series is more future proof than the x800s; even despite the fact that he vehemently argued against any such logic back when ATI was the one with the leg up.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: CU
Oh and you don't lose money buy not using SLI. It is a sunk cost.

While that is true, would you agree the additional money he spent to have two PCIE slots will have been wasted should he never use the additional slot?

If I buy a car with a turbocharger, and opt to bypass it never having used it, was my money wasted?

That's all I was getting at with the "wasted" money part.

 

[cubalis]

In most cases I would say yes, it was wasted... but with my particular situation I ended up getting a nice package deal with my proc./board that nullified the extra cost of sli.

I think I'm going to try and find the x800xl, and if I can't find it for a decent price then I'll reconsider the second 6600gt.

Thanks for all the opinions - I appreciate it.

cubalis

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Exactly, don't mind Rollo's attempt to sway you with logical fallicy; you can't loose money you already spent. As you point out adding another 6600gt will cost you more than selling the one you have and replacing it with a x800xl. Not to mention, if those 6600gts are 128mb cards then you would be stuck with having to sacrifice texture quality and AA in newer games that are designed to make use of 256mb of video-ram as SLI doesn't share ram.

You can't lose money you already spent, but you can avoid having spent money in vain by using the things you buy?

As far as your AA argument goes, I haven't seen huge backing of it:
Far Cry
12X10 4X8X
X800XL=58fps 6600GTSLI=55fps

16X12 4X8X
X800XL=42fps 6600GTSLI=35fps I don't consider either of these a "usable" average fps

Doom3
12X104x8x
6800GT=50fps 6600GTSLI=49fps

16X12 4x8x
6800GT=38fps 6600GT SLI= 32fps I don't consider this "playable" either, and I think we can assume a X800XL is worse than these two? 29fps on X800XL

Half Life 2
12X10 4X8X
X800XL=65fps 6600GTSLI= 37fps This one I'll give you, for this demo. On the other hand,look at ATs 12X10 4X8X:
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2315&p=6
6600GTSLI:45.2fps, 47.8fps, 92.4fps, 81 fps, 61 fps I consider ~50fps average the minimum for "playable", 3/5 scores meet my criteria, and one more is close enough (2.2fps away) that it might scrape by.

Or my own 12X9 4X8X 6600GT SLI benches with the AT benches and a 12X9 setting:
12X9 4X8X
at_c17__12_rev7...51fps
at_canals_08_rev7...50fps
at_coast_05_rev7...83fps
at_prison_05_rev7...64fps

All playable. (makes me wonder how FS could pull 12X10 score like 37 when AT and my own benches had a minimum of 45?)

Recap: X800XLs and 6600GTSLIs cannot play the three most demanding game engines at 16X12 4X8X at an average fps of 50. Both can play 12X9/10 4X8X at equal levels, except for HL where the X800XL has an advantage.

There is no "sacrifice of AA" you imply, except at unplayable settings.

Also I got a kick out of this:

Originally posted by: Rollo
5. The 2002 feature set of the ATI cards is starting to show it's age: HDR in Far Cry, SM3 in Far Cry, Painkiller, Splinter Cell 3, Soft Stencil Shadows in Chronicles of Riddick, gameplay in general in Doom3 and Doom3 based games, MS standard- all of these tell me I want to have SM3 and 32 bit in 2005

While I do agree that Nvidia has a leg up with SM3 and their proprietary shadow tech; I'd have to say Doom3 is highly debatable as if you like vsync then Nvidia's lake of triple buffering in OpenGL is a real down spot, and I have yet to see any game listed there or otherwise demonstrate the value of 32bit floating point over 24bit. Regardless, I can't say i'm missing SM3 or the 16bit floating point framebuffer that alows for HDR in Far Cry by using an x800xt-pe in my main rig, and if I was I'd just swap it out for my 6800gt that hits just under ultra speeds which I keep in my second rig.

I have a X800XT PE as well, I don't need to swap it out or anything though, the A64 3000+/1GB Corsair PC3200 in that box push any current game fine. Mostly it pushes "Blues Clues" these days, my five year old got it as a hand me down.

But Rollo is right in implying that the Geforce6 series is more future proof than the x800s; even despite the fact that he vehemently argued against any such logic back when ATI was the one with the leg up.

Brilliant. Something has value even when there's no use for it. I see.

I feel the same way now as then- if DX9c was some brand new thing that no games make any use of, I'd say the same thing. But I saw the increase in performance when SM3 was implemented in Far Cry, I've seen HDR, and am using SLI. SM3 is will be implemented in more and more games this year and next.

 

[Nellinc]

 

[Nellinc]

ooops, sorry bout that....

well, reading everyones feelings around this reminds me of why pc building can be so fun, yet so frustrating at the same time. i recently retruned 2 6600gt's for a single asus 6800gt for the GIGABYTE NF4 GA-K8NXP-SLI mobo i just bought (i won't have it until next monday). From the research i have seen, most people recommend purchasing a single 6800gt and upgrading further down the road for a number of reasons. first and foremost being i will not likely see that dramatic an improvement in the games i currently play. So, paying 496.00 for an asus 6800gt pci-e now and then buying another later at considerable discount seems to be the best option. as for bugs etc. with the nf4 sli chipsets go...thats a given. there will always be issues and there will always be bios upgrades to address these issues. the key, ive found is....having 2 fast computers so you alwys have a working rig!

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Rollo
As far as your AA argument goes, I haven't seen huge backing of it...

Obviously, if you don't mind constant stuttering from texture swapping you could get away with plenty of AA on a game with lots of high res textures on a 64mb card, but are you honestly trying to contest the usefulness of having more than 128mb of ram on a videocard?

Originally posted by: Rollo
I feel the same way now as then- if DX9c was some brand new thing that no games make any use of, I'd say the same thing. But I saw the increase in performance when SM3 was implemented in Far Cry, I've seen HDR, and am using SLI. SM3 is will be implemented in more and more games this year and next.

But there were also a couple games making use of SM2 when you argued against it, and as we have seen more games came later that year and here in the next. Granted, they didn't get a performance boost from SM2 like Far Cry does form SM3, but even with the boost from SM3 in Far Cry Nvidia still tends to fall behind ATI's offerings so that is hardly a ringing endorsement for Nvidia's SM3 tech. Regardless, I found your arguments about Far Cry simply being a one level demo to see SM2 in at the time rather absurd; but I find it even more absurd when you bring up the Splinter Cell 3 to taught SM2 which at this time is simply a one level demo. Granted, I find both The old Far Cry demo and the new Splinter Cell demo to be exelent examples of the virtues of both ATI's and Nvidia's products respectively; I just dug up the old thread to point out how one can easily use such examples to either disregard or praise new technology depending on what ones motives are.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: Rollo
As far as your AA argument goes, I haven't seen huge backing of it...

Obviously, if you don't mind constant stuttering from texture swapping you could get away with plenty of AA on a game with lots of high res textures on a 64mb card, but are you honestly trying to contest the usefulness of having more than 128mb of ram on a videocard?

I'm saying it makes less difference than one would expect at this point, 6600GT SLI is not a 16X12 4X8X rig.
I just ordered a 6800NU SLI set, they have 256MB, we'll see.

 

[malficar]

I'd say grab a X800XL. Go look at the recent Firingsquad article that reviews the X850XT, it has the GT and the XL in there for comparison as well. If you want dual DVI and VIVO get the powercolor X800XL. I might add the powercolor has 1.6ns ram vs 2.0 for most. If you want to try a OC greater than 440 or so I would say also pick up the zalman VF 700 gpu cooler and replace the stock version.

Enjoy.