What to charge to lay cables and setup an small network?

Eltano1

Golden Member
Aug 6, 2000
1,897
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I need to connect about 6 PCs, DSL modem, 1 router, 1 swith, and 1 hub, plus the cables are going outside of the wall (user requested like that), it will be around 300 ft of cables. Since I'm out of a job, this will be an small income for me, need to know how much to charge for labor.

Thanks in advance

Eltano
 

tfinch2

Lifer
Feb 3, 2004
22,114
1
0
How experienced are you?

I'd say hourly @ $75/hr

That's what I get billed out at, and while competent I'm not that experienced.
 

ScottMac

Moderator<br>Networking<br>Elite member
Mar 19, 2001
5,471
2
0
Don't do it.

If you absolutely can't walk away, get a good contract, statement of work, scope of work, then hire a contractor that knows what they're doing; someone that is "Bonded and Insured"

You are responsible for any damage, direct or consequential to the premises, during the install or in the future as a result of it.

The people that are asking for your help will be the first to threaten a lawsuit when something goes wrong .... and when you accept the task "for pay," you become a "professional" and are completely responsible for what you do.

For example: If you install that UTP outside, without proper conduit and entrance protection (most often a local and national code violation) and "something happens" on that cable (like a near-hit lightning strike), the insurance may not pay, since it was done out of code, and without proper municipal inspection (some of this depends on home / commercial prem, and your local codes). If the insurance doesn't pay, you're next ....

Standard UTP is not spec for exposure to the elements.

You are also incapable of certifying the installation. The tools to do so are many thousands of dollars.

There's a lot of "worse case" here, but this stuff happens all the time.

Walk away, or sub it out to someone that knows what they're doing. Trust me.

Good Luck

Scott
 

Eltano1

Golden Member
Aug 6, 2000
1,897
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Let me refrase the post. When I said "outside" it means inside of the office, but not through the walls. I did installed networks and cables before, but working for somebody else, this is my first installation working for myself. And I do have the tools to check for connectivity and whatnot.

Thanks anyways for your advise

Eltano

BTW, this is a friend of mine office (he is the owner and just moved in)
 

ScottMac

Moderator<br>Networking<br>Elite member
Mar 19, 2001
5,471
2
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If he doesn't own the building, the building owners can demand that his contractors show a certificate of bond and insurance.

You'd still be on the hook if something went wrong.

Good Luck

Scott
 

DaiShan

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2001
9,617
1
0
Originally posted by: Eltano1
Let me refrase the post. When I said "outside" it means inside of the office, but not through the walls. I did installed networks and cables before, but working for somebody else, this is my first installation working for myself. And I do have the tools to check for connectivity and whatnot.

Thanks anyways for your advise

Eltano

BTW, this is a friend of mine office (he is the owner and just moved in)


Scottmac was not referring to testing for basica connectivity. Certification of the cables, and simple connectivity are two very different animals. I would be slightly concerned that you didn't know this. I know that right now you're thinking that this will be cake, and maybe it will, we are just trying to caution you against some potential pitfalls. Also, he probably still wants you to run the cables through the ceiling and not along the ground, so you'll have to take that into account. To answer your original question, our pricing goes like this: Materials +15% + $50/hour with a 3 hour minimum. If you are wiring a building, it should easily take you 3 hours.
 

Eltano1

Golden Member
Aug 6, 2000
1,897
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OKm thanks for the heads up. The reason why he wants the cables outside, is because the office has wiring inside of the walls but are not working and some of them are cut. And is a PITA to remove them, we already tried.

Eltano
 

Eltano1

Golden Member
Aug 6, 2000
1,897
0
0
I already have the cables, CAT5e stranded, from Cables to go, so that is not an issue.

Eltano
 

Podolak

Member
May 23, 2002
160
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0
We do a flat rate of $125 a drop. However, as we don't really have the time to do them ourselves we generally sub out and pay the contractor $75 a drop netting $50 a drop.
 

RebateMonger

Elite Member
Dec 24, 2005
11,586
0
0
Originally posted by: Podolak
We do a flat rate of $125 a drop.
That's probably a pretty good number. Obviously, though, it can depend on the circumstances. If you have to drill holes through 8-inch brick walls, it might be a bit tougher....
 

cmetz

Platinum Member
Nov 13, 2001
2,296
0
0
I'm a bit disappointed that some people would dissuade an unemployed person from trying to make a living. A fair warning is a fair warning, but if someone's trying to work and asking for help, I think people should give him a little break and try to help.

Eltano1, you should charge as much as you reasonably can. You should have some idea of the customer's ability to pay already, and should bid accordingly. If you bid too low, you short-change yourself, if you bid too high, your customer won't go for it. If you have to err, err a little on the high side and you can negotiate down.

If you think that this customer is difficult - difficult means either that they won't pay, or that they'll hassle you down the line - then I would suggest walking away or bidding very high so they'll decide not to use you. Most of the time, you can tell pretty quickly what kind of customer you're dealing with. Some folks are really into rules and procedures, and some folks are just %$!%$#%s. Don't do business with someone you think isn't going to pay, or is likely to sue you, in your current position. You need to be a real corporation with real legal protections and ability to eat losses before you even mess with such customers. (my advice is still don't, but anyway).

But if you think the customer is reasonable, then this can be okay. You have to start somewhere. This sounds like a relatively safe and easy job - you're using wall-mount conduits and running through that, and it's all low-voltage. Your actual expenses will be cable (500'/$30), conduits (?? but not cheap), boxes (ditto), jacks ($6-$8 ea), a basic tester ($50), a punch-down tool if you don't have one ($60), and probably some other incidentals. Make sure to know what your direct costs are first. Then you have two choices: you can bid fixed-cost, or time-and-materials. In the first scenario, you quote a rate, let's say $125/drop, and then you make it happen. If your actual time is quick and materials are cheap, you profit. If there's a problem or the customer changes things during the job, you might not profit. Time and materials is lower risk for you but higher risk for the customer. You charge actual expenses to the customer, and you charge a rate for your labor (say $75/hr).

Most customers prefer fixed-cost. You as the vendor should build margin into any fixed cost bid to cover unexpected things. So that would probably be the best way to lead.

Now, be aware of the accounting and tax consequences of self employment. Expect to lose half of your net profit for this job in taxes. In your current position you might be tempted to use the cash in your pocket now, and then you'll be short come next April.
 

Goosemaster

Lifer
Apr 10, 2001
48,775
3
81
Originally posted by: cmetz
I'm a bit disappointed that some people would dissuade an unemployed person from trying to make a living. A fair warning is a fair warning, but if someone's trying to work and asking for help, I think people should give him a little break and try to help.

Eltano1, you should charge as much as you reasonably can. You should have some idea of the customer's ability to pay already, and should bid accordingly. If you bid too low, you short-change yourself, if you bid too high, your customer won't go for it. If you have to err, err a little on the high side and you can negotiate down.

If you think that this customer is difficult - difficult means either that they won't pay, or that they'll hassle you down the line - then I would suggest walking away or bidding very high so they'll decide not to use you. Most of the time, you can tell pretty quickly what kind of customer you're dealing with. Some folks are really into rules and procedures, and some folks are just %$!%$#%s. Don't do business with someone you think isn't going to pay, or is likely to sue you, in your current position. You need to be a real corporation with real legal protections and ability to eat losses before you even mess with such customers. (my advice is still don't, but anyway).

But if you think the customer is reasonable, then this can be okay. You have to start somewhere. This sounds like a relatively safe and easy job - you're using wall-mount conduits and running through that, and it's all low-voltage. Your actual expenses will be cable (500'/$30), conduits (?? but not cheap), boxes (ditto), jacks ($6-$8 ea), a basic tester ($50), a punch-down tool if you don't have one ($60), and probably some other incidentals. Make sure to know what your direct costs are first. Then you have two choices: you can bid fixed-cost, or time-and-materials. In the first scenario, you quote a rate, let's say $125/drop, and then you make it happen. If your actual time is quick and materials are cheap, you profit. If there's a problem or the customer changes things during the job, you might not profit. Time and materials is lower risk for you but higher risk for the customer. You charge actual expenses to the customer, and you charge a rate for your labor (say $75/hr).

Most customers prefer fixed-cost. You as the vendor should build margin into any fixed cost bid to cover unexpected things. So that would probably be the best way to lead.

Now, be aware of the accounting and tax consequences of self employment. Expect to lose half of your net profit for this job in taxes. In your current position you might be tempted to use the cash in your pocket now, and then you'll be short come next April.

:thumbsup:
 

Kremlar

Golden Member
Oct 10, 1999
1,426
3
81
Don't do it.

If you absolutely can't walk away, get a good contract, statement of work, scope of work, then hire a contractor that knows what they're doing; someone that is "Bonded and Insured"

You are responsible for any damage, direct or consequential to the premises, during the install or in the future as a result of it.

The people that are asking for your help will be the first to threaten a lawsuit when something goes wrong .... and when you accept the task "for pay," you become a "professional" and are completely responsible for what you do.

For example: If you install that UTP outside, without proper conduit and entrance protection (most often a local and national code violation) and "something happens" on that cable (like a near-hit lightning strike), the insurance may not pay, since it was done out of code, and without proper municipal inspection (some of this depends on home / commercial prem, and your local codes). If the insurance doesn't pay, you're next ....

Standard UTP is not spec for exposure to the elements.

You are also incapable of certifying the installation. The tools to do so are many thousands of dollars.

There's a lot of "worse case" here, but this stuff happens all the time.

Walk away, or sub it out to someone that knows what they're doing. Trust me.

Good Luck

Holy toledo...

lol
 

Eltano1

Golden Member
Aug 6, 2000
1,897
0
0
Thanks cmetz for your advise and understanding. I know the risk of this job and I'm willing to assume then (I need the money). I did the job in two days (per user request), 3 hrs yesterday and 4 hrs today. My main job of laying the cables and connecting to the new switch and router it was done in a total of 4 hrs, but the user asked me for help to setup 2 new PCS and help setting up his Workgroup to share QUICKENS (what a PITA), for which I need to go back tomorrow and finish it.
I'm thinking to charge Time and Materials at a rate of $60.00 per hour, what you guys think?

Eltano
 

Eltano1

Golden Member
Aug 6, 2000
1,897
0
0
Cables, terminals and boots: $90.00
Router and switch: $140.00
I did made the connections myself and tested with LAN tool, today I was happy to see that every single one of the connections worked without a problem :) :) :) :wine: for me.

I clampled all the cables to the baseboards (as I said customer requested like that) so there is not any cable in their way.

Now about the labor, 7 hours plus tomorrow morning (2 more hours) to help him to fininsh his QUICKEN sharing.

I was thinking to charge him at $60.00 per hour, for a total of $540.00 plus materials.

Eltano
 

Eltano1

Golden Member
Aug 6, 2000
1,897
0
0
Finally I charged $1140. Another happy customer.:) :) :)
Thanks to everybody for the support and advise.

Best regards

Eltano
 

shamans

Member
Jul 23, 2006
133
0
0
Damn, that's a lot of $$$ for easy labour (mentally and physically).

What's the world come to ;)
 

cmetz

Platinum Member
Nov 13, 2001
2,296
0
0
Eltano1, for future reference, I strongly suggest you set up a "rack" labor rate that is high, say $150/hr, and put something very explicit in your bids/agreements that any work they want you to do that isn't included in the quote will be performed at that rate. You need to be very careful with those quick "while you're here" jobs - they can ruin your schedule, they can get really hairy really fast, and also customers have a bad habit of forgetting all about those jobs when it's billing time.

Also, please be careful about accounting and taxes. You can get yourself into a world of hurt if you aren't.
 

silverdj

Senior member
Feb 26, 2006
275
0
0
I thought you said that your customer is your friend? If I am wrong, then I am glad that you didn't settle for the 540 or whatever it was and went to the 1140, but if it was your friend, then don't you all think that 2 hrs could be just a favor or something? Never the less congrats on doing the job, since you knew you could do it and people were trying to get you not to(even though they were looking out for you). If you don't take chances in life, then you really don't live your life.
 

cmetz

Platinum Member
Nov 13, 2001
2,296
0
0
Friends conduct business fairly and at market rate. You don't do free "favors," nor do you overcharge. Any friend who would want to do business otherwise isn't your friend at all.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
SilverDj,

This is the cost of business. A network cost between 15 and 20% of even the smallest computing environment. without it, those computers are useless - dead slugs.

It's just the cost of doing business. I personally think the price of a single computer (1250) to give 6 computers the ability to work is a bargain.

My best friend owns a carpentry business. No way would I NOT compensate him if he did his business for me. Time is money.
 

silverdj

Senior member
Feb 26, 2006
275
0
0
Thats true, I guess I am too nice of a guy. I like helping people I know and don't really care about making any money from it, but I am also only 24 and live with the parents so I don't really have any financial responsibility. I wasn't knocking him though, it was just a thought. People have to do what they have to do. :)
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: cmetz
Eltano1, for future reference, I strongly suggest you set up a "rack" labor rate that is high, say $150/hr, and put something very explicit in your bids/agreements that any work they want you to do that isn't included in the quote will be performed at that rate. You need to be very careful with those quick "while you're here" jobs - they can ruin your schedule, they can get really hairy really fast, and also customers have a bad habit of forgetting all about those jobs when it's billing time.

Also, please be careful about accounting and taxes. You can get yourself into a world of hurt if you aren't.

Word. Clear, concise statement of work. Anything beyond that is a change - that change is billed at more than the normal price.

Failure of the customer to not completely define their scope=costs more.